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MUSIC: Twist And Shout
by The Isley Brothers

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# Shake it up baby now

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# Shake it up baby

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# Twist and shout

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# Come on baby now

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# Come on baby

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# Come on and work it on out

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# Woo
Shake it shake it baby

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# Shake it up baby

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# Shake it shake it baby

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# Shake it up baby

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# Shake it shake it woo

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# Shake it shake it baby

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# Prr, shake it baby

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# Shake it shake it baby. #

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How highly would you rate your own
music?

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We're not very good musicians,
you know, and we'd never claim

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to be very good musicians.

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We're adequate, but not very good.

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What's the reason, do you
think,

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for the tremendous popularity?

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Is it because people admire your
talent or...?

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Well, I don't know - maybe they
admire adequate music.

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LAUGHTER

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MUSIC: Money (That's What I Want)
by The Beatles

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# The best things in life are free

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# But you can keep them for the
birds and the bees

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# Now give me money
That's what I want... #

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People tend to think they met and
then they were famous,

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but of course, there were five years
of hard work.

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Their early performances in
Liverpool were quite raw, really.

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A lot of the gigs, they weren't
even paid for.

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they were just given drinks and
things.

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They were regarded as a nothing
group.

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The Beatles were about third in the
running in Liverpool.

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These other bands like Howie Casey,
and Rory Storm And The Hurricanes

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were really big.

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In Liverpool in '60 and '61, no-one
had really discovered us.

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You know, the likes of the
Rolling Stones and...

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Gerry And The Pacemakers would
knock us into a cocked hat.

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You know, they were the big stars
and we were just like, you know,

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the lads on the ladder.

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John Lennon said, "Do you know what,
Joe?

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"If I don't make it with this band,"
he said,

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"I'm going to get a ship and go up
that river

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"and I'll skip that ship in New
York."

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They were just like average lads
that you might meet

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down the football club or something,
you know?

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Paul wanted to be a window dresser.

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He said, "Don't you tell me what I
want to be, Joe.

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"I want to be a window dresser," he
said.

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"Window dressing fascinates me."

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Liverpool's always been a hotbed
of music but never

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had the recognition for it.

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You know, jazz, steel bands, you
name it, skiffle,

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it's all emanated there.

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Liverpool was a pretty bleak place.

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Bleak and lonely.

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The black buildings, you know, and
the soot...

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Very melancholy, in a way.

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It was kind of biblical bleak.

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I mean, the storms and the light
shafts cutting through,

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and the sea hitting up against that
sea wall.

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Yeah, it was pretty grim up North.

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The place was absolutely filthy.

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All these wonderful buildings that
we see today

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were nearly all black.

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We had a lot of smoke coming from
ships all over the place.

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You could go put a nice white shirt
on in Liverpool and you'd come home

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and it'd have to be washed because
there would be black smut.

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Towards the end of the
Second World War,

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Liverpool was virtually flattened, I
mean, there wasn't much left of it.

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If you stood by the
Victoria Monument

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and looked around in an arc,

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almost everything was flattened.

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How they missed the
Victoria Monument,

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God only knows!

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Used to play in these fields.

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George would be six, maybe seven.

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We found lots of unexploded stuff.

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Grenades or incendiary whatevers.

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But we thought it would be fun to
blow it up cos it was just

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there not doing anything.

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So, he dug a hole and put these
incendiaries into it

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and lit a fuse and ran away and it
just went...

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sss...kaboom!

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And just made a little hole.

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I was born on the 9th of October
1940, when I believe the Nasties

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were still booming us, led by
Madolf Heatlum,

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who only had one.

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Anyway, they didn't get me!

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Lennon, particularly, was a kind of
street urchin.

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He persuaded himself that he was.

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He wasn't, of course, he was far
more sophisticated

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and intelligent than that.

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If you go to Menlove Avenue, where
John Lennon spent his childhood,

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you will see it's an absolutely
lovely area.

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A long, long way away from a
working-class hero, really.

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A beautiful neighbourhood with a
garden front and back,

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a park opposite...

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I mean, John probably was the...

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the most privileged of the lot.

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Menlove Avenue is a very nice road.
Living with his Auntie Mimi.

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She was a cross between a
headmistress and a librarian.

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In other words, intimidating.
She was.

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Well, I didn't want him wasting his
time playing a guitar.

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What was I going to do if I had a
boy of 21 thrown back

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on my hands qualified for nothing?

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Did you get sent round the back
door? Yeah. No, I...

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"John's round the back, Len." "OK."
I always got in the front door,
that's my claim to fame.

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Well, you probably dressed properly!
Well, I probably had a shirt and tie

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on and a suit, cos I was working...

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I looked like a scruff.

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She'd let the cats in through the
front door!

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But us, ruffians, "Round the back."

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John was like a naughty brother who
you had to... You kept thinking,

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"Oh, God, what's he going to do
next?" You know.

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He said, "I'm not going to do as you
tell me,"

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but he always did!

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I don't think many parents
liked him, they used to refer to him
as "That Lennon".

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He was a bit of a handful.

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HE SIGHS

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At the local youth club,

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I think he was blamed for burning
it - setting fire to it.

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Maybe he did, maybe he didn't but...

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The rest of them came from sort of
council premises or terraced

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streets, you know, where there were
outside loos

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and you had to have a bath in a tin
tub.

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Paul McCartney lived on an estate
about a mile away.

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Yeah, we used to rehearse in Paul's
house but I only remember his dad

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coming in and taking Mike out and
saying,

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"Come on, leave them to it," you
know.

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He was very strict with
Paul and Mike.

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He sort of kept them in during the
week,

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they were allowed out at the
weekends

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cos he was left as a lone father to
bring them up.

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Paul was law-abiding and studious,

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did his homework on time.

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I didn't meet his mum, apart from
the fact I think

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she was the midwife who delivered
me.

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George came from the Wavertree area.

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It was one of those small terraced
houses.

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I don't know where they fitted them
all in - there was, like,

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mother and father, George, three
brothers, two brothers,

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and everybody's all squeezed into
this little council house.

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It was, the family was crowded
together but it was a quite,

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sort of, warm and nice atmosphere.

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The people, at those times, were
really good neighbours.

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His dad worked on the buses, so if
he ever saw you waiting for a bus,

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he'd just pick you up and let you
get home free.

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And George also was our butcher's
delivery boy.

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He used to stop at my house and my
mum would make him some beans

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on toast and a cup of tea, and we'd
listen to records.

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People say he was the quiet Beatle,
and he was in one way, cos he let

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the other two do all the talking,
cos they did, you know.

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But he wasn't quiet, you know?

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He was very thoughtful, George.

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Paul and George used to get on the
bus and go to school together,

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and George started carrying his
guitar to school and singing

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in the back of the bus.

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Before rock and roll and before that
sort of mid '50s,

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late-'50s period, it was dull.

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It was grey.

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It was monochrome in music, in
films, in everything.

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There were no, sort of, British
heroes.

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People in the earlier '50s, dressed
like their dads.

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The first sports jacket that I
bought was something similar

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to what my father had,
because you wanted to look like him.

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The idea that you could dress the
way you want only happened

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because of the late '50s, the start
of freedom for people,

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and particularly students.

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We wanted our own music, our own
clothes, our own style.

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It started to be a bit Technicolor
and brighter, you know?

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We were so elevated in our lifestyle

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and our enjoyment, especially as
teenagers.

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We started getting money. You
couldn't fail to be in work.

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The wages weren't fantastic but we
could go on a holiday,

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you could buy clothes, buy LPs.

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In the 1950s,

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it was very difficult to get
American rhythm and blues records.

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Liverpool rock and roll fans were
very lucky

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because they had the services of the
Cunard Yanks.

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That was the name given to the men
who worked on the boats that went

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back and forth between Liverpool and
New York.

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They brought back the records either
as gifts for people back

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here or it came back as ballast.

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My elder brother was in the Merchant
Navy.

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He was bringing all these great
records home.

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Not the rock and roll stuff, earlier
than that,

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Eddy Arnold, Johnny Cash, Billy Edd
Wheeler, all these people like that.

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They would hear about these
sometimes not very well-known

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rock stars like The Coasters or The
Drifters, the doo-wop boys,

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which hadn't yet established
themselves.

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They'd come out of a very stagnant,

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post-1950s idea of pop music.

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In America, you got the start of
soul, you got the start

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of Motown, there's a lot happening
underneath the surface,

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and those are the records that
The Beatles play.

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It all really started off in the
mid '50s when rock and roll

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and skiffle arrived pretty much at
the same time.

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Ken Colyer goes over to New
Orleans,

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he jumps ship, he's working with the
Merchant Navy,

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and when he's there, he hears all
this music, which is called

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spasm music, which is basically
people playing in,

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you know, houses with tin pans

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and with, you know, washboards.

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When he comes back and he's working
with Chris Barber,

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he tells him about this form of
music that he's heard

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about and they say, "What's it
called?" He says,
"It's called spasm music."

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And everyone says, "You can't call
it spasm music, that's really rude."

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00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,120
And somebody, and it may well have
been Lonnie Donegan,

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or maybe Chris Barber, somebody
comes up with

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the name skiffle.

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Teenagers form these groups with
cheap acoustic guitars.

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You had a tea chest, a broom handle
attached to it,

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00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:45,360
somebody else would have a
washboard, and they would rub

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something up and down on that.

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Very primitive.

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I had a skiffle group on the street
corner with all the lads,

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they all had guitars.

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Skiffle gave us the confidence to
get on stage with the bare

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minimum of talent.

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We needed three chords, we needed a
guitar,

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no amplifiers, no PA system, and you
could at least pretend

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to be entertainers.

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00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,120
The origin of The Beatles was a
group called The Quarrymen,

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00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,680
which John had formed at Quarry Bank
school.

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Somebody suggested getting a band
together,

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00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,280
a group together, so John and Eric
decided to learn guitar.

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They went to some guy in
Hunt's Cross

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and they realised they were going to
take a year to learn to read dots,
so...

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It was too complicated. ..they gave
up.

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00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,760
So, they went to John's mum, Julia,
and she taught them banjo chords.

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00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:28,320
Banjo chords, yeah.

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00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,640
Most people think of only John,
Paul, George and Ringo,

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but if you looked right through the
different line-ups

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00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,000
of The Beatles, starting with
The Quarrymen,

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00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,840
you'll find about 25, 26 people
in there.

239
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,200
Well, I joined the group because
I wanted to sing,

240
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:44,840
I wanted to be a singer.

241
00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,560
I didn't particularly want to play a
tea chest bass but John says,

242
00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:50,400
"Well, Bill Smith doesn't turn up
for rehearsals,

243
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,840
"do you want to come in on the tea
chest?"

244
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,320
That was 1955.

245
00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,600
So, The Quarrymen, which John Lennon
formed,

246
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:00,120
was very much a makeshift group.

247
00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,560
If somebody just said, you know,
"We're having a party,

248
00:13:02,560 --> 00:13:05,120
"do you want to come and perform?"
We were there, weren't we?

249
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,680
Probably the competition. We wanted
a bit of competition.

250
00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:11,440
No, we wanted to stand up and
impress the girls,

251
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,720
nothing to do with competition!

252
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:15,840
That's what it was all about!

253
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,520
"That girl's looking at me.

254
00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,720
"Let's play louder, that girl's
looking at me!"

255
00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,240
The Quarrymen weren't very good, as
far as I remember.

256
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,120
And then Paul McCartney joins.

257
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:34,680
So, we went to this village fete and
we were both there together

258
00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:39,560
and I'd got to know John through
Ivan.

259
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,320
And normally, you know, you'd be
talking to people

260
00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,400
in conversations, saying,
"What's your hobbies?"

261
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,520
"Oh, I like doing this.
I like cycling," or
"I like swimming," or...

262
00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,840
And I would say to people,
"I like songwriting,

263
00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,520
"I've written a couple of songs."

264
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,840
And everyone would go, "Oh, yeah."
And ignore it.

265
00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,160
But John went, "Oh, yeah, so have
I."

266
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:01,960
So that was like, "Oh.

267
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,040
"What, you've written a couple of
songs?"

268
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:05,480
"Yeah."

269
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,480
"Well, show me yours and I'll show
you mine, baby!"

270
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,200
John and Paul complemented each
other

271
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:11,960
because they were quite different.

272
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:13,800
John was the out-and-out rocker.

273
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,280
He thought rock and roll was
rebellion.

274
00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,880
Paul was brought up on Broadway
musicals.

275
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,880
He loved Fred Astaire, you know, he
liked Peggy Lee records

276
00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:23,640
and things like that.

277
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,400
Paul did sort of smarten us up,
didn't he?

278
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,200
Paul decided he was going to buy
a white jacket and wear that.

279
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,280
So John thought, "Well, I'm not
standing in shirt sleeves

280
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,040
"if Paul's wearing a white jacket."

281
00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:35,840
So John had to go and get a white
jacket.

282
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,400
So, we're in white shirts with black
ties.

283
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,080
John was not going to be outdone or
outshone by Paul.

284
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,960
Once Paul McCartney got in the band,

285
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,840
they knew they wanted to do
Twenty Flight Rock,

286
00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,120
Eddie Cochran's song, for example.

287
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,080
They knew they wanted to do rock and
roll and that skiffle

288
00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,280
was starting to sound a bit old hat.

289
00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,160
They knew what they wanted and
they'd been turned on

290
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,840
by the American music of the time.

291
00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,000
The whole thing about rock and roll,
about when it came out,

292
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:14,520
was told wrongly.

293
00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,480
It was told by the tabloids as being
this outrageous thing

294
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,560
where teenagers went mad and were
uncontrolled.

295
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,840
It was all bollocks, it wasn't like
that.

296
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,960
I mean, Bill Haley was the first
rock and roll star but he really was

297
00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,560
a bit like a company bank manager,
wasn't he?

298
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,600
Despite the fact that it was the big
rage and he got an incredible

299
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,920
reception, there was a slight
disappointment in that it wasn't

300
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,040
the kind of romantic thing that you
wanted out of rock and roll.

301
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:40,120
That came with Elvis.

302
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,920
MUSIC: Baby, Let's Play House
by Elvis Presley

303
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:46,520
# You may have a pink Cadillac

304
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,200
# But don't you be nobody's fool

305
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,040
# Now baby come back

306
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,400
# Come back baby
I wanna play house with you

307
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,960
# Come back to me little girl
So we can play some house... #

308
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,440
They all heard Elvis and thought,
"This is different,

309
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,160
"this is what we are."

310
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,840
Elvis Presley, Eddie Cochran, Jerry
Lee Lewis, Gene Vincent,

311
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,280
Buddy Holly and Little Richard,
those were the names

312
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,280
that The Beatles were really
influenced by.

313
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,680
# Oh, baby

314
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,560
# Having me some fun tonight

315
00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,840
# Well, long tall Sally
She built for speed

316
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,040
# She got everything that
Uncle John need, oh, baby

317
00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,280
# Having me some fun tonight... #

318
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,840
On the 20th of March 1958, Buddy
Holly and The Crickets

319
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,040
are playing the Philharmonic Hall in
Liverpool.

320
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,160
So many of the people who later
played in Mersey beat groups went

321
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,920
along to the Philharmonic Hall and
they saw Buddy Holly

322
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,840
with a Fender Stratocaster guitar.

323
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,080
Nobody in Britain had seen a Fender
Stratocaster guitar,

324
00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,080
and so they came out thinking,
"We want to go electric."

325
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,400
Manchester was regarded as the
capital of the North.

326
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,680
It had Granada television, the BBC
studios, and everything.

327
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,200
Nothing can happen unless it was
done in Manchester.

328
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,280
Liverpool was like a backwater.

329
00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,720
The Cavern itself banned rock and
roll,

330
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,640
you weren't allowed to play it. It
was a jazz venue.

331
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,240
Skiffle was regarded as a form of
jazz, and it was a jazz club,

332
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,040
so that was acceptable.

333
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:52,840
Rock and roll was taboo.

334
00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:58,320
John, Paul and Eric and myself were
improving quite a bit.

335
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,360
We were going on to much more rock
and roll kind of music.

336
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:04,440
And John wanted to play All Shook Up
and all these rock and roll

337
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,280
numbers, so we were mixing it on the
set list.

338
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,400
Alan Sytner, who was running
The Cavern,

339
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,080
he didn't want any rock and roll

340
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,080
at The Cavern, he didn't want John
Lennon doing Elvis songs.

341
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:21,600
Sure enough, halfway through the
song, a note was passed up,

342
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,160
"Can you cut out the rock, or else!"

343
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,240
We just kept on playing.

344
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,160
Nige Walley, who was acting as our,
sort of, manager,

345
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,120
he got us the gigs, and they used to
stand at the back

346
00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:47,000
and, you know, judge reactions.

347
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:53,000
So, the more rock and roll stuff we
did, the emptier this centre area

348
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,800
became as people just got up and
were disappearing.

349
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,440
By the time we got offstage, the
centre thing was empty and John

350
00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,360
was quite devastated, so...

351
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:03,560
Went into the little side room and
John said, "I can't believe that."

352
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,720
He said, "We ended up that nobody
was listening to us."

353
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,080
And Pete and Nige burst in and Pete
said, "That was fantastic,

354
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,400
"one of the best gigs you've ever
done."

355
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:14,960
And John said, "But they all left."

356
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,560
And Pete looked at him in puzzlement
and said, "No,

357
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,640
"no," he said, "everybody was
jiving."

358
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,760
He said, "Those central aisles,
everyone was up dancing.

359
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:29,080
John was almost myopic

360
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,880
and couldn't really see the audience

361
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,520
and so he used to pick a spot in the
middle distance

362
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,800
and just look at that spot and go
like that.

363
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,520
It used to get him into a lot of
trouble because he used to squint

364
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,080
at people and somebody would want to
smack him in the face,

365
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,600
so it caused a lot of fights, that.

366
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,120
The early gigs were quite
nerve-racking, you know.

367
00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:51,160
As The Beatles, we had people
throwing pennies at us and stuff,

368
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,000
Teds, you know, big teddy boys, "Get
off!"

369
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,480
Chucking stuff at us. You know, "Oh!
Oh, dear."

370
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,800
All the jazz crowd booed them and
threw coins at them

371
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,520
and they were fined,
Ray McFall fined them.

372
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,200
But they picked the coins up from
the floor and there was more

373
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,360
money than they were getting paid
for the gig.

374
00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:10,920
We picked the money up and said,
"Thank you."

375
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:12,360
They soon stopped throwing it.

376
00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:16,000
And when George joined, it just
carried on as The Quarrymen

377
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,480
doing, pretty much, rock and roll
music.

378
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,040
George was...

379
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,720
..the talented one.

380
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,560
Nobody ever realises what a good
guitarist George was.

381
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,840
I mean, John was a hopeless
guitarist.

382
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,440
George started off at 100mph and,
before you knew it,

383
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,440
he was into... I just lost...

384
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,000
You lost him, you lost it!
I couldn't keep the beat,

385
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,200
it was just a disaster. You let him
carry on.

386
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:43,920
Just let him carry on. You're the
drummer.

387
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,400
And it didn't help because Nige was
standing down the front

388
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,120
of the stage. He shouted out,
"Col's lost the beat!"

389
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,440
People didn't realise how big the
musical scene

390
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,600
was because they were all in their
own areas.

391
00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,640
I mean, you'd have in the Dingle
area people like Billy Fury

392
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,880
and Billy Hatton of The Fourmost and
Gerry Marsden,

393
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:03,720
Gerry And The Pacemakers.

394
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:08,600
I began to make notes and I thought,
"This is absolutely incredible."

395
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,520
The Iron Door came, then
St Luke's, Blair Hall, Holyoake,

396
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,280
Litherland Town Hall, the Aintree
Institute...

397
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,920
All those venues were suddenly up
and running.

398
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,120
I wrote to The Daily Mail and
newspapers,

399
00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:22,600
saying, "What's happening in
Liverpool is unique.

400
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,040
"It's like New Orleans at the turn
of the century

401
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,040
"but with rock and roll instead of
jazz."

402
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,480
But of course, nobody took any
notice, so that's why I created

403
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,520
the newspaper Mersey Beat to promote
the groups.

404
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:34,880
Len disappeared...

405
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,120
Well... Disappeared? I was ill.

406
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:40,880
Well, you were ill, and then, in
1958, we went to a recording studio

407
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,440
in Kensington and we recorded two
songs.

408
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,000
One was Buddy Holly's That'll Be The
Day

409
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,800
and, on the other side, one that
Paul had written

410
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,880
called In Spite Of All The Danger,
and paid for it, I mean,

411
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,320
it wasn't, you know, nobody had
hired us to do it,

412
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,200
it was a small recording studio
where you could go and pay a small
fee.

413
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,960
Suddenly, we were walking round with
a record that we could actually

414
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:02,960
take home and play.

415
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,400
One of The Quarrymen,

416
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,160
I think it was, they were recording

417
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,840
as in those days, took that record,

418
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:11,960
and The Beatles never saw it again

419
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,880
and then Paul had to buy it back at
a hugely inflated rate

420
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,240
25 years later!

421
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,440
When that came out on the anthology,
I got my three shillings

422
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,040
and sixpence back, plus a bit extra.

423
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,240
But then they stopped performing
completely.

424
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,560
They'd more or less packed in, given
up.

425
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,040
I'd had enough after a while,
because there was no...

426
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,400
We didn't have cars, I was carrying
them drums

427
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,400
on and off buses all the time.

428
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,000
Basically, they weren't going
anywhere, so eventually,

429
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,240
I just gave up.

430
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,840
Some people might say, "Well, the
first place The Beatles played

431
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,920
"and became famous was the Cavern
Club."

432
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:52,800
But you've got to be honest and say,

433
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,520
"No, they played the Casbah
first."

434
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,280
Mona Best had a little club in the
basement of her house,

435
00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:59,920
called the Casbah.

436
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,840
John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George
Harrison, Stuart Sutcliffe,

437
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:08,800
obviously Pete Best,

438
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:10,640
since our mother owned the house

439
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,360
where the Casbah was started,

440
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:13,800
the Casbah Club, but the boys

441
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,480
had to get involved in decorating
the club,

442
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,000
getting it ready for opening night.

443
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,560
John Lennon had three attempts at
this ceiling.

444
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,080
His first attempt he did three-toed,

445
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,360
potbellied, scrawny-legged figures
on it.

446
00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:27,920
Mo hated them.

447
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,320
His second attempt was to paint it
green,

448
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,320
which Mo also hated, and his third
attempt,

449
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,680
which was acceptable, was John's
interpretation

450
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,120
of Aztec Mexican artwork, hence the
ceiling being known

451
00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:44,080
as the Aztec ceiling.

452
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,960
My mother was looking for a band to
open the club.

453
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,320
She said, "Do you know anyone who
might be interested?"

454
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,320
George basically turned round and
said,

455
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,200
"I happen to know a couple of guys

456
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,640
"who aren't doing anything at the
moment."

457
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,800
And Mo said, you know, "Bring them
down," you know,

458
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,600
"let's have a look at them."

459
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,240
And they came down the next day and,
lo and behold,

460
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,600
they turned out to be John Lennon
and Paul McCartney.

461
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,800
My mother put the deal to them, she
said, "You know,

462
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,840
"we want a residency, the band can
play every Saturday."

463
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,480
She gave them the price, which was
£3, you know,

464
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,600
which was a lot of money in those
days.

465
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,640
This is the original stage area.

466
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,320
This is where the lads started on
the 29th of August 1959.

467
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,320
The line-up that night was John
Lennon, Paul McCartney,

468
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:36,520
George Harrison and Ken Brown, who
were the re-formed Quarrymen.

469
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,800
That line-up, with The Quarrymen,
opened the Casbah for us.

470
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,880
No drummer, just four guitarists.
Yeah, incredible.

471
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,800
And the Casbah is always one place

472
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:46,080
that people want to go

473
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,280
because it's still like a museum.

474
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,320
Paul McCartney painted the rainbow
ceiling

475
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,800
and these colours, for some of you,
may be recognisable

476
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:57,760
from the Magical Mystery Tour.

477
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,320
Paul still uses these colours today
on one of his touring pianos,

478
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,520
the one he refers to as the
Magic Box.

479
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,120
But this really is where it all
started.

480
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:12,960
Mother and Mersey Beat wanted to
bring music to the kids

481
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,600
of Liverpool and, my goodness me,
she did.

482
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,720
The Casbah became the catalyst
for what the world knows today

483
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,720
as the Mersey beat sound.

484
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,480
The stage area, here.

485
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,320
This is where The Beatles first

486
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,600
played in this country, in the UK.

487
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,800
Their first show in Liverpool as
The Beatles

488
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:37,520
was on the 17th of December 1960,
here at the Casbah Coffee Club

489
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,080
and this was the stage that they
played on.

490
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:42,640
Why are you called The Beatles?

491
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,240
That's the name John thought of.

492
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:45,800
Ringo, did you think of it?

493
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,400
No, John thought of it. John thought
of it? John thought of it.

494
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,280
There are a huge number of different
versions of how The Beatles

495
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:52,880
got their name.

496
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:54,760
Most groups had a lead singer,

497
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,080
so you had groups like Cliff Richard

498
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,360
And The Shadows,

499
00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:00,440
but they never wanted to be like
that, really.

500
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,680
They were, sort of, Johnny And The
Moondogs

501
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:03,960
and Long John Silver

502
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,880
and then Long John And The Silver
Beetles, for a time.

503
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,440
One venue advertised them

504
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:09,760
as the Silver Beats,

505
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,160
but they didn't even turn up,

506
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,080
even though he'd put them as top
of the bill.

507
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,120
I suspect they were thinking of
The Crickets,

508
00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:17,760
which was their favourite group,

509
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,280
Buddy Holly and The Crickets,

510
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,760
and so you can imagine crickets,
insects, beetles.

511
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,280
John insisted the name had
originally been inspired

512
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,520
by seeing Marlon Brando in
The Wild One.

513
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:35,240
Lee Marvin's rival motorcycle gang
band were allegedly called

514
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,440
the Silver Beetles, but John said it
wasn't

515
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,520
the Silver Beetles at all.

516
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,960
It was the girls who were with the
motorcycle gang that were called

517
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,800
the Beetles, because they clung to
the back of the motorcyclists.

518
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,480
John introduced the substitution of
the second E to an A,

519
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:58,600
making it Beat...les, and he thought
it had a French, kind of,

520
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,520
feel to it, Les Beatles, Les Beats.

521
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,680
But this was just having fun,
really, and once they'd got

522
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,120
a recording contract, they really
wanted to be The Beatles.

523
00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:11,520
I think he got a bit of fun

524
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,560
out of laying deliberate false

525
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,080
information about it, and seeing it
reproduced

526
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,440
in the papers as fact, you know.

527
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,760
I first met him in 1958 at Liverpool
College of Art

528
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,000
and I saw this guy come striding
past, he looked like a teddy boy,

529
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,280
and I thought, "That guy, he's
different, you know?

530
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,720
"He's a bit of a rebel, I must get
to know him."

531
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:41,600
John was a rebel, an individual,
and very enigmatic.

532
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,520
I just couldn't resist him.

533
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,960
I knew there were easier men in the
world.

534
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:47,920
In fact, I was going out with a very
easy,

535
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,160
boring man at the time.

536
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,920
But I mean, John just lifted me
away from all this,

537
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,120
and he was just the most outrageous
character I'd ever come across,

538
00:27:57,120 --> 00:27:59,680
and I loved him for it.

539
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,560
John was a great character.

540
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:03,960
People wanted to, sort of, be around
him,

541
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:05,400
but not get on the wrong side

542
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:06,680
of his tongue, you know?

543
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,720
He had a cutting sense of humour,

544
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,120
almost on the verge of being nasty.

545
00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:14,560
And the girls in the college used to
be dead afraid of John.

546
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,200
If they'd be talking in the
corridors, and he came along,

547
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,440
they all kept quiet, afraid of what
he might say to them.

548
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,200
When he came into here in the pub,
he'd sort of make sarcastic jokes

549
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,400
about some of the old people that
were in here,

550
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,120
maybe an old guy with a pipe or
something,

551
00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:33,280
and he'd start making funny, what he
thought were funny, remarks

552
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,880
about him, you know, "That's a bad
tooth you've got, Vicar."

553
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,760
You know, indicating that the pipe
was a tooth.

554
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,320
It was pretty good-natured.

555
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,960
Trouble is, one person's
good-natured remark can be taken

556
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:47,200
as an insult.

557
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:48,360
He was like Marmite.

558
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,600
Some people liked him, some people
didn't like him.

559
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,120
He could be moody, like us all, you
know,

560
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:54,880
got out the wrong side of the bed
one day,

561
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,680
and you never knew what mood John
was in until you started

562
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:58,960
talking to him.

563
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,080
They think your haircuts are
un-American.

564
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:03,800
Well, it was very observant of them,

565
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,600
because we aren't American,
actually.

566
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,640
John was a strange character.

567
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,680
His mum was run over, quite early
on, when he was at college.

568
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,800
He didn't mention it to anybody.

569
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,480
Well, there were two sides with
John. There was the side

570
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,720
that the public saw, which was the
caustic,

571
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,760
abrasive, devil-may-care, you know,
and the other side,

572
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,080
which was a very tender and a very
loving person.

573
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:42,520
John was somewhat anxious to get
away from the home environment,

574
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,160
where he was treated more like a
little boy.

575
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,800
This old building to the left is the
one that we all went

576
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,040
to as an art school in the '50s.

577
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,280
A long time since I've been here.

578
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,800
3 Gambier Terrace, this is where we
all shared a flat.

579
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,120
We used to be in number 3, and
it was called Hilary Mansions

580
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:14,720
then, and John, Stuart and myself,
Des and Duckie had the first floor,

581
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,600
which was one continuous big flat.

582
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,160
Wonderful flat, £3 a week, bargain.

583
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,280
Number 9, Percy Street.

584
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,000
Where Stuart... We spent most

585
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,920
of our time, when we were students,
along with John, Cynthia

586
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,560
and everybody else that wanted to
come to a party.

587
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,040
First of all, we lived in the back
room on the first floor.

588
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,920
Eventually, of course, we had to
move because we'd been

589
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,760
caught burning bits of furniture
that were in the basement.

590
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,440
But we had a good time here, and
this is where they wanted a bass

591
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,960
guitarist and we were practising in
one of the rooms with the tape

592
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:03,840
recorder and both Stuart and I
offered to be bass guitarist.

593
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,560
So, I thought, "I'll make a bass
guitar." Carving it out of wood,

594
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,680
and I didn't have any money to get
the strings

595
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,080
but I thought, "Well, one day, after
I'd done a bit

596
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,160
"more scaffolding work."

597
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,760
Stuart Sutcliffe got some money
through a painting being purchased

598
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:23,360
by the John Moores family and so he
got a bass guitar.

599
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,800
He got the job, I didn't.

600
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,600
Stuart Sutcliffe was certainly a
very, very gifted artist

601
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,080
but he was also John Lennon's best
mate

602
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,280
and John wanted him in the group.

603
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,960
I don't think anybody ever really
saw him play

604
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:42,800
with The Beatles in Liverpool.

605
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,040
I know the person who showed him how
to play,

606
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,400
Dave May of The Madisons, and he
said that Stuart was a pretty

607
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,040
competent bass player.

608
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:51,920
He could get by, certainly.

609
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,400
He wasn't as bad as some people say
he was,

610
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:55,960
but his heart wasn't really in it.

611
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,560
We were all going to become famous,
of course, we were quite

612
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,040
sure of that.

613
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,880
John would do it with his music,
Stuart and Rod would do

614
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,160
it with the painting, and I'd do it
with my writing.

615
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,320
We were a family, you know?

616
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,240
We lived together for four or more
years.

617
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,800
That seemed to go quite well, until
The Beatles started rehearsing

618
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:22,400
in the back room, and we started
getting complaints from the agents,

619
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,680
saying that there's too much noise,
and...

620
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,640
"Noise? Beatles? Noise? Ridiculous."

621
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,400
They went and auditioned for
Larry Parnes.

622
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,000
Tommy Moore was their regular
drummer at that time,

623
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,640
and they did a tour

624
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,080
for Larry Parnes in Scotland,

625
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:45,920
backing Johnny Gentle.

626
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:47,520
It was a bummer, you know,

627
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,720
it didn't happen.

628
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,760
Tommy Moore came back from that,
he said, "I've had enough playing

629
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,360
"drums, I'm going back to being a
forklift truck driver

630
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,240
"at Garston Bottle Works," and off
he pottered.

631
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,160
So that left a berth for drums.

632
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,640
Howie Casey And The Seniors were the
very first Liverpool group

633
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,480
to go to Hamburg, via Allan
Williams, a local promoter.

634
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,880
I came down to the club one night

635
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,080
and there was no steel band,

636
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:15,960
and the waitress, Audrey,

637
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:17,720
said, "Didn't you know

638
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,160
"they've gone to Hamburg?"

639
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,360
Well, it could have been
Outer Mongolia for...

640
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,680
You know, and so they wrote to me,
saying, "You should come

641
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,160
"over to Hamburg." And we went to
this club called

642
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:33,920
the Kaiserkeller and there was an
awful German band playing,

643
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,800
with no rhythm, just singing, I can
still hear

644
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:42,080
the guy singing, "Tutti frutti, oh
Rudy," and the kids were bored.

645
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:47,280
So I found out where the manager,
who he was, and I sold him

646
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,000
the idea of having, you know, bands
from Liverpool.

647
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,000
It's a little bit quieter in here.

648
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,000
The second invasion of Germany

649
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,880
started about four years ago.

650
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,760
This wasn't a military invasion,

651
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,520
but more of a pop invasion

652
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,080
of British beat artists.

653
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,640
The club owners over here in Hamburg
had been looking for a long time

654
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,520
for something new to offer to the
Hamburg youngsters.

655
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,640
All they had here was television and
German television programmes

656
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,360
are usually aimed at the adults,
anyway.

657
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:21,040
They heard from young seamen who had
been in Hull,

658
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,600
Southampton, Liverpool, such ports
in Britain,

659
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,840
on coast-to-coast cargo vessels,

660
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,680
that an American style of rock

661
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:31,720
and roll music was being played

662
00:34:31,720 --> 00:34:33,960
over in Britain by British artists.

663
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:35,920
Of course, it was too expensive

664
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:37,560
to bring American artists

665
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,600
from the States, so these club
owners,

666
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,640
people like
Peter Eckhorn, Bruno Koschmider,

667
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:45,960
decided to import British artists.

668
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,200
Bruno Koschmider asked for another
Liverpool band,

669
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,520
so Allan Williams asked Rory Storm
And The Hurricanes,

670
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,560
the most obvious ones, but they were
booked to go

671
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,400
for a summer season at Butlins,
so they couldn't do it.

672
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,640
Then he asked Gerry And The
Pacemakers,

673
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,480
but Gerry Marsden was working on the
railway and he wouldn't give up

674
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,360
his job, so in desperation, he
turned to The Beatles.

675
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,320
The Beatles had got a booking in
Hamburg

676
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,320
but the contract stipulated that
they had to have a drummer.

677
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,440
I got a phone call from Paul.

678
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,440
I wasn't expecting it and he turned
round and said,

679
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,400
"We've had the offer to go to
Germany, Pete,

680
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,640
"how would you be fixed about
joining the band and playing drums?"

681
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,280
Pete was a very good-looking lad.

682
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,720
People say that Pete had the
James Dean look, you know?

683
00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:38,560
A smashing guy. Good, solid, thumpy
loud drummer.

684
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,000
And then, lo and behold,

685
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,400
which was the funniest thing of all,

686
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,120
they'd seen me playing, he said,

687
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,000
"Well, you've got to audition,
Pete."

688
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,560
So I landed up at the Blue Angel
Club, they were all there,

689
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,400
blasted off about six numbers, which
everyone knew.

690
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,440
They went away in a corner for about
ten minutes.

691
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,360
Allan Williams, who was the manager,
who was taking us out to Hamburg

692
00:35:58,360 --> 00:35:59,920
at that time, came in.

693
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:02,840
John and Paul shouted out, "This is
the new drummer, Allan." You know?

694
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,240
So Allan said,

695
00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:06,760
"They made you audition in case you
asked for more money."

696
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,200
So I said, "Well, it's nice to know,
but whatever they're

697
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,600
"getting suits me."

698
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,760
Next thing was to check it out with
Mum and Dad.

699
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,920
When they asked Peter to join them,

700
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:18,680
they weren't really known.

701
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,200
Though I had used them
in my club before,

702
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:22,480
they weren't really known.

703
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,240
So anyway, Peter joined them,

704
00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:25,760
and Peter being with them,

705
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,120
as one of The Beatles,

706
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,160
automatically I took a more personal

707
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:30,600
interest in the boys.

708
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,400
They said, "If it's what you want to
do, go with our blessings."

709
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,640
So that's how I ended up, and a
couple of days after that,

710
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,680
we were on our way to Hamburg.

711
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,040
And imagine an old Dormobile van,

712
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,400
there must have been about 11 or 12
people in it.

713
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,080
You know, there's more equipment on
top of the van than

714
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:54,440
what there was inside!

715
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,200
We had sing-alongs, we nearly froze
to death

716
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,600
on the ferry going over, but that's
another story altogether!

717
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,720
When we saw the Reeperbahn, it was
just absolutely incredible,

718
00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:23,400
it was just this maze of neon
lights, you know,

719
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,640
absolutely spellbinding, we'd never
seen anything like it before.

720
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,560
The red-light district was pretty

721
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:29,920
notorious at that time,

722
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,120
and they were in some pretty seedy
areas of Hamburg.

723
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,360
Especially in the St Pauli area, it
was gangster-controlled.

724
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,720
It was, you know, the red-light
district of the world, at that time,

725
00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:41,880
but it was very violent

726
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,320
and it took us a while to actually
recognise that.

727
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,960
When we're from Liverpool, without
blowing our own trumpets,

728
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,720
we have a reputation of being able
to look after ourselves.

729
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,320
We thought we were going to be
playing the Kaiserkeller.

730
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,120
Bruno Koschmider, who was the
manager,

731
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,800
he basically turned round and said,

732
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,880
"No, no, no, no, no, no, you're not
playing here,

733
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,120
"Derry's playing here." You know,
"You're playing at a club further

734
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,600
"down the road."

735
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,760
They were told, "Oh, you're not at
the Kaiserkeller,

736
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,080
"you're at this other little club,
former strip club,

737
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:15,800
"called the Indra."

738
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,880
So we said, "OK, let's go and have a
look at it."

739
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,080
So we walked down the Grosse
Freiheit

740
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,120
and away from the neon lights and
the colour and the crowd

741
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,320
and we came to the Indra.

742
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:26,560
And we dashed in.

743
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,880
Two people in there, you know,
arguing over the price of a beer,

744
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,360
and he turned round and said, "You
have got to make

745
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:36,880
"this into another Kaiserkeller."

746
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,440
That was the challenge.

747
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,840
And then we said, "OK, where are we
sleeping?"

748
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,080
So he said, "Over the road."

749
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,560
First response was, "Great, close to
the club!" You know?

750
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,720
So we looked over the road, and
there was a cinema,

751
00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:55,840
the Bambi Kino, and there was a
back door to it

752
00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,800
and we went through the back door
and we went into this alleyway

753
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,520
at the back of the cinema.

754
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,960
Paul and I ran past what we
nicknamed the Black Holes

755
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,320
of Calcutta, which became our
bedrooms, which were two dungeons.

756
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,720
And Bruno Koschmider turned round
and said,

757
00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:13,600
"These are your quarters." You know?

758
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,360
So we kicked up a big fuss about
that and he turned round

759
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,440
and said, "Oh, it's only going to be
temporary."

760
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,920
You know, "We'll change in a couple
of weeks."

761
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,520
Four months later, we were still
there.

762
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,520
It was that great big myth, it was
rock and roll, you know.

763
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,800
You know, we were in the Sin City.

764
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,160
So, you know, we were lads, let's
just get on and enjoy ourselves.

765
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,680
When we went out to Germany, I'll be
quite honest,

766
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:42,320
we were average, you know, compared
with other bands in Liverpool.

767
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,840
But we went out to captivate the
German audiences,

768
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,640
six, seven hours a night, six, seven
nights a week.

769
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:52,320
The Beatles were very irreverent,
really, and I like to look back now

770
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,480
and think that they were the first
punk group.

771
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,160
A few times we got warned, you know?

772
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,920
A couple of the waiters came up and,
you know,

773
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:02,240
the managers came up, sort of turned
round and said,

774
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:04,280
"It's getting a little bit too
risque, lads."

775
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,320
We all decided in the break that
we'd all get dressed up,

776
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,080
and John decided that he was going
to go on in

777
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,240
swimming trunks and, as the crowd's
going wild,

778
00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:17,120
our antics are getting wilder and
wilder and wilder

779
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,360
and one of us turned round and went,
"You won't show your backside

780
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,520
"to the German audience, right?"

781
00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:26,560
Famous last words!

782
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,080
Middle of a number, guitar strung
around his neck,

783
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,360
John turned round and he just
flashed his backside

784
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,120
to the audience.

785
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:36,960
But he just didn't flash it,

786
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,080
he just left it up there until the
end of the song.

787
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:41,840
You can just imagine his pink

788
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:43,720
derriere staring at you in the face,

789
00:40:43,720 --> 00:40:50,000
like that, not far from me, and they
were hysterical, you know?

790
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,760
We were hysterical, John po-faced,
just basically

791
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,680
pulled his trunks up again,
continued the next number

792
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,320
until the next break.

793
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,200
But the funny thing that happened
after that,

794
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,480
the following night, they wanted
that to be done again.

795
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,400
They thought that that was going to
be part of the show.

796
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,200
So we had to explain to them, "No,
it was just a one-off."

797
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,240
As far as The Beatles were
concerned, I had heard

798
00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:14,680
about them when I first went there.

799
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,360
Everyone was talking about them,
you saw their picture up there,

800
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,640
so you thought, "Maybe there's
something special."

801
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,400
The crowd was growing, you know, we
got the crowd to the Indra

802
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,520
and we ended up playing in the
Kaiserkeller on a regular basis.

803
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,120
The German audience, more so than
the British audience,

804
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,560
like hard, driving beat music.

805
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,880
Pete created what was called the
Atom Beat,

806
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,280
a way of pounding, pounding sound.

807
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,840
You used to have to turn everything
up full blast and,

808
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,840
you know, I used to have to develop
a beat which would keep everything

809
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,320
locked together so it was a lot of
bass drum work,

810
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,520
a lot of tom-tom work.

811
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,920
He sort of created The Beatles'
sound.

812
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,720
He played the drums so loud to cover
up for the, sort of,

813
00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:04,480
turned down bass sound of Stuart.

814
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,640
It was sort of a bit of an
affectation that he was playing

815
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,400
with his back to the audience and
with sunglasses on,

816
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:15,080
and it was largely so that he could
see the strings and play!

817
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,000
I don't think this went down
terribly well with Paul,

818
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,320
who wanted professional bass
players.

819
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,000
Everyone was jealous of Stu,

820
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,040
I'll be quite honest, because, you
know,

821
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,480
Astrid was this gorgeous German
girl.

822
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:32,040
One of the first letters I got from
him mentioned meeting this girl,

823
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,840
who was a photographer, and he was
really taken with her.

824
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,840
She walked in and she was dressed in
leather,

825
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,120
and she was a beautiful-looking girl
anyway,

826
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:42,920
but we were spellbound.

827
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,240
"Leather?!" You know?

828
00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:48,800
And then, of course, when Stu fell
in love with her,

829
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,640
he started wearing leather, but this
was a very expensive leather.

830
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,760
Rivalry, I suppose, you know, people
could be dwelling on the fact

831
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,520
that Stu punched Paul because he had
a few silly things

832
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,880
to say about Astrid one night.

833
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,800
You know, normally Stu would just
laugh it off,

834
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,240
you know, and Astrid would just
sit there

835
00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:12,640
and it went over her head.

836
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,200
But this particular night, Stu put
his bass guitar down and turned

837
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,000
round and punched Paul in the teeth

838
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,480
and that was the end of it, you
know?

839
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,800
Paul was wanting real, professional
musicians

840
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,360
and Stuart wasn't and Stuart knew
that.

841
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,240
Stuart wanted to be an artist.

842
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:32,800
That's why he went to Hamburg, and
studied at

843
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,240
Paolozzi's art academy.

844
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,160
And we went to the Top Ten Club

845
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,400
and started playing there with
Tony Sheridan.

846
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,600
We went and told Bruno Koschmider,
who threatened us

847
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,240
and turned round and said, "You'll
never play Germany again."

848
00:43:45,240 --> 00:43:48,760
To which we laughed and put two
fingers up and went to the Top Ten.

849
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,080
But all of a sudden, George was
alleged to be underage.

850
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,560
Because there used to be an ausweis
over there,

851
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,960
which meant that after nine or ten
o'clock at night,

852
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,080
you couldn't perform if you were
under 18,

853
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,920
and then Paul and I were framed

854
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:04,760
for trying to burn the Bambi Kino

855
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,160
down and we got sent home.

856
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,040
We were deported as well.

857
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,520
Stu by this time had decided he was
going to stay with Astrid,

858
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,680
and John, after playing with Tony
Sheridan for a couple of weeks,

859
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:19,400
decided, you know, he missed the
boys and he made his

860
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,440
own way back home again.

861
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,160
The Beatles had an image that they
brought back with them,

862
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,560
which wasn't fully formed

863
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,160
but it had begun.

864
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:35,640
They'd got the leather jackets,

865
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:37,520
which were still, sort of, old hat,

866
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,160
in a way, I mean, old rock and roll
style.

867
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:45,360
We all dashed out and got leather
jackets because our stage clothes

868
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,520
were basically falling to bits, OK?

869
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,560
And it was also the idea...
Leather's cheap, we can wear leather

870
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,120
onstage, offstage, basically live in
it.

871
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:55,680
Paul was the last.

872
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,000
He eventually got one but it took
him quite a while afterwards

873
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,160
and that, for some unknown reason,
became our trademark.

874
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,280
And even when we came back to
Liverpool,

875
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,720
that was the image we brought back.

876
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:17,040
The first time I saw The Beatles was
at the Litherland Town Hall.

877
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,840
They'd just come back from Hamburg
after being there for about

878
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:21,840
six months perhaps,

879
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,120
and they exploded onto the stage.

880
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,320
Suddenly, they had stage presence,

881
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,520
they had a show, they knew

882
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,680
how to entertain, they knew how to

883
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:37,480
engage with the audience.

884
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,040
You know, people were flabbergasted.

885
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:40,880
They didn't know how to take us.

886
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,480
The first time we played with them,

887
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:43,840
at St John's Hall, Bootle,

888
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,200
I came home from work and

889
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:46,720
I'd bought the Echo to see

890
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:50,240
who was on with us tonight, and it
was - From Hamburg,

891
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:51,800
The Silver Beatles.

892
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:53,800
I thought, "Who the hell are they?!"
You know?

893
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,200
And I watched them and they were
fantastic.

894
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,160
Other groups were, sort of...came
on, wearing suits and played,

895
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:05,000
and didn't communicate with the
audience as much as they did.

896
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,520
In Britain at that time, it was
pretty pop stars in shiny

897
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:14,160
suits, choreographed Shadows
walking, and nice bright guitars.

898
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,640
They were just actually smoking on
stage,

899
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:18,280
they had their amps on chairs...

900
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,480
At one point, they were talking
German onstage

901
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,720
because they could speak fluent
German.

902
00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:25,320
People thought they were a German

903
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:26,600
band, direct from Hamburg,

904
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,440
and thought, "Oh, they don't half
speak good English

905
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,840
"for Germans." You know?

906
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,560
Just their clothes convinced us
that they were German.

907
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,160
We were wearing leather jackets, we
were wearing polo necks,

908
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:42,400
we had cowboy boots, our hair had
grown long.

909
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,080
We were wearing, at that time, you
may laugh,

910
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:46,840
red V-neck jumpers!

911
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,200
So we thought, "Oh, I think we'd
better look at ourselves,

912
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,040
"here." And we did, we just took
note of The Beatles.

913
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,440
Never seen so many kids start to
dress in leather jackets

914
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,280
in Liverpool after that!

915
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,920
Of course, the music we were
playing, as well, behind it,

916
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,400
you know, the two and two went
hand in hand together.

917
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,840
Raw energy, savage band that we

918
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,400
were, great rock and roll band.

919
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,200
And the audience that were dancing,
I just stopped and walked

920
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,520
towards the stage and watched
them and thought,

921
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,720
"This is something special, here."

922
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,040
The Beatles suddenly appeared in
Liverpool and I thought,

923
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:24,880
"I'll go and see them."

924
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,880
I get on the bus and there's George
sitting with a guitar.

925
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:31,320
He's doing the gigs.

926
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,960
So, "Can I carry your guitar to...?"

927
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:38,320
Suddenly turns out he's in this new
group, The Beatles.

928
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,920
So, I just carried on carrying his
guitar until John and Paul said,

929
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,160
"You can carry ours, as well."

930
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,360
And then, one day, Brian Epstein had
become their manager.

931
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,720
I said, "Will you pay me to do it?"

932
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:52,680
He said, "We'll pay you."

933
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:56,960
And then I'd be paid to go and see
The Beatles for free.

934
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,440
We flew over to Germany, we were
opening The Star-Club,

935
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,120
and we were met

936
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,040
when we were coming off the plane,

937
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,200
on the tarmac, by Astrid.

938
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,640
And we all turned around and said,
"Where's Stu?"

939
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,040
And she turned round and said,
"Don't you know?"

940
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:14,840
And we said, "No."

941
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,920
And she said, "Stu died of a brain
haemorrhage."

942
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,760
That was the first time I've ever
seen John cry in public.

943
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,600
Broke down, tears cascaded down his
face, and...you know...

944
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:30,160
I think that was how everyone
felt, you know?

945
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,560
It was such a shock, we weren't
expecting it

946
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:36,040
because, you know, he was no longer
part of the band

947
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,960
but he was still with us in spirit.
Every time we played over there,

948
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,440
he'd turn up, he'd watch us, he
still loved being part of it,

949
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,120
being associated with it.

950
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:48,400
So, his demise, you know, was a big
shock to everyone.

951
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,840
I don't think John and I ever spoke

952
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,640
about the fact that Stuart had died.

953
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:55,600
I think it was a closed book to
John,

954
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,080
he just didn't want to think about
it

955
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,720
because they really were very close.

956
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,720
Anyone who didn't enjoy their stuff
at Hamburg...

957
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:16,680
..must have missed something!

958
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:20,040
We were earning what was a small
fortune in Britain.

959
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:24,120
And I bought my very first car from
my first month's

960
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,040
stay at the Star-Club, that's how
good it was.

961
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,280
You'd mix with all the musos,

962
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,720
so you played with Gene Vincent,
Jerry Lee,

963
00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:34,440
Ray Charles, Fats Domino, the
Everlys, Joey Dee.

964
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:38,080
You played with all these people, so
you're learning all the time.

965
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:39,880
It was a great school.

966
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,280
No-one in Great Britain, outside of
Liverpool,

967
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,400
knew who were The Beatles,
Kingsize Taylor,

968
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,680
The Undertakers, The Big Three,
one of the best bands,

969
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,600
or Gerry And The Pacemakers...
Completely unknown.

970
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,560
Suddenly, we realised there was a
force there.

971
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,520
All together, from Liverpool,
it was manic.

972
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,800
Depending on where your line-up was
in the routine of the club,

973
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,520
you could do two hours, three hours.

974
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:04,800
Or, if you went on very early in the
afternoon,

975
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,080
you would find yourself doing a
very-early-morning spot as well.

976
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,680
So, you could do four hours in a
night there.

977
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,320
John and I were the ones who,
you know, propped the bars

978
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,120
up and we'd talk about home and all
the other bits and pieces.

979
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,080
Normally, you'd be walking home in
daylight, early hours

980
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:22,600
of the morning, and you'd either go
down to the Seaman's Mission

981
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:27,600
by the port, and get your chips and
egg, or your steak,

982
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,360
and then you'd go home to bed, sleep
most of the afternoon.

983
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,360
Bert Kaempfert, who was one of the
biggest impresarios

984
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,680
in the German record industry,

985
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,720
came in under the radar,
very low profile.

986
00:50:41,720 --> 00:50:44,280
But we got tipped-off when he was
there and we put on the show

987
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:45,600
of our lives.

988
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:50,920
He fell in love with us and, of
course,

989
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:52,960
history portrays now, you know,

990
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,080
he signed us up and Tony Sheridan.

991
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:56,720
The Beatles' first chart entry

992
00:50:56,720 --> 00:50:57,960
was a record they made

993
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,440
with Tony Sheridan, of My Bonnie.

994
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:04,880
And they made that in Hamburg in
1961 and that got to number 31

995
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:06,680
on the German charts.

996
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:08,840
So, that was The Beatles' first
hit single.

997
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,120
Germany allowed them to express
themselves.

998
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:13,760
They did do the most outrageous
things on stage,

999
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:18,400
I mean, John Lennon making Nazi
salutes and swearing all the time.

1000
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,640
Partly because there was a language
problem.

1001
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,600
And he thought it was quite funny to
do, you know,

1002
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:24,280
call them Nazis and the heil Hitler
sign

1003
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:25,960
and all the other bits and pieces.

1004
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:27,520
They loved it.

1005
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,240
You know, half of them didn't know
what he was talking about anyway.

1006
00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:33,440
John could have been a stand-up
comedian.

1007
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:34,720
He was funny.

1008
00:51:34,720 --> 00:51:37,920
People forget this about John,
he was a funny guy.

1009
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,160
John, despite all his bravado and
all his bluff,

1010
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:42,960
was as insecure as anyone else.

1011
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,080
And his way of dealing with that was
to get the boot in

1012
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,240
first before anyone else could.

1013
00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:51,720
I was going into the Star-Club, John
Lennon was coming out,

1014
00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:54,680
we hadn't met at that point, so I
introduced myself and said,

1015
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:56,840
"I really enjoyed the show last
night."

1016
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:00,400
So, he, kind of, "Yeah, yeah, Frank,
isn't it?"

1017
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:04,280
He looked at me, like, I suppose,
a snake before it eats a rabbit.

1018
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:08,120
And he said, "Yeah, I enjoyed your
show as well.

1019
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,440
"I've been talking to people in the
club and it seems

1020
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,480
"that, next to Cliff in the band,

1021
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,560
"you're the most popular member.

1022
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,400
"I can't think why, your harmonies
are bloody ridiculous."

1023
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:23,240
And he didn't say bloody.

1024
00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:26,760
So, I stood there, thinking, "I
don't know if I've been insulted

1025
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,520
"here or whether this is some kind
of joke and I'm not quite

1026
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:30,920
"getting the humour."

1027
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:32,920
A bit snide, a bit cruel, sometimes.

1028
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:34,760
Cos he couldn't walk away from a
good joke.

1029
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,080
If he saw something funny to say,
he'd say it.

1030
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:40,440
You know, then, "Maybe I shouldn't
have said that." You know?

1031
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,080
I admired him as a person, I admired
him as a musician,

1032
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,320
I had such great times with him,
great memories of him.

1033
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:48,640
He was my hero, yeah, I suppose
that's the best way

1034
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:50,080
of putting it.

1035
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:08,680
The Beatles had a very strong
following that they engineered

1036
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:10,240
in Hamburg.

1037
00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:13,120
When they came back, they played to
that audience.

1038
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,920
I mean, The Cavern Club was pretty
notorious

1039
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:19,040
for having a very strong female
contingent there.

1040
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:21,840
It was girls with curlers in their
hair, and a scarf

1041
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:23,360
over the top, you know.

1042
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:25,000
It was very small-time.

1043
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,760
I lived in The Cavern. Every time
they were on, I was there.

1044
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,840
It was the only club in Liverpool
that done lunchtime sessions.

1045
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:33,920
You could go to hear music in your
dinner hour.

1046
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:35,800
The Cavern was a strange place.

1047
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:37,720
You've been there, it's a filthy
hovel.

1048
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:45,280
It was a black door in the street
and a bouncer leaning

1049
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:47,240
against the door, Paddy.

1050
00:53:47,240 --> 00:53:51,280
And you went down one flight of
stone stairs into this cellar.

1051
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:55,640
To these little vaulted rooms, where
people stood like sheep

1052
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:57,520
in a cattle train, you know?

1053
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:00,840
Getting your gear down The Cavern
when it's packed, it's...

1054
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,040
It was hard, but we were young and
we enjoyed it.

1055
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:04,960
Health and safety wouldn't have even

1056
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:06,960
allowed people to go into it
nowadays.

1057
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:09,640
Hot, sweaty, smelly.

1058
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,160
There was water running down the
walls, at least we hoped

1059
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:13,560
it was water.

1060
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:15,760
There was clouds of smoke mingling

1061
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:17,800
with the perspiration on the walls.

1062
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,920
It smelt.

1063
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:21,320
Smelt of death.

1064
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:24,920
Couldn't deny that you'd been

1065
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:26,320
to The Cavern because

1066
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,280
you'd have a smell on your clothes

1067
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:31,520
and it was a unique smell.

1068
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,280
I know some people say it was, you
know, because of

1069
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,400
urine and things like that.

1070
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:40,160
If it wasn't smelling of cabbages,
it was smelling of some disgusting

1071
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,760
Dettol that they were throwing
around the toilets at the time.

1072
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:44,160
Paints a nice picture.

1073
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,280
Yeah, paints a nice picture.

1074
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:48,080
It was blended in with...

1075
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:50,480
Because there was a fruit market
opposite,

1076
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,160
so, you know, you had the smell of
orange.

1077
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:54,640
And, erm...

1078
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,160
..I'm sure if I could bottle it, I
could make a fortune.

1079
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:02,960
Of course, it was the showplace for
a lot of Liverpool bands.

1080
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:06,840
The atmosphere in there, when it was
packed, was electric.

1081
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:10,360
Everybody was standing in the same
few square yards,

1082
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:14,640
right in front of the stage,
just looking up at them.

1083
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:16,960
If you have a look at any of
the old photos,

1084
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:19,000
wasn't the best of equipment!

1085
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,320
You know, apart from the drum kit,
that was great.

1086
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,040
They only had two microphones.

1087
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:26,000
So, George would be on this side of
the mic, and Paul on the other

1088
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:28,480
side of the mic, sharing the
microphone.

1089
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,640
Not because they thought that was a
clever thing to do.

1090
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:33,880
They couldn't afford another
microphone.

1091
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:38,120
When you talk to people who went to
The Cavern,

1092
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:39,680
Freda Kelly, for instance,

1093
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,400
she'd say that, "It was great
because you could talk to them

1094
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,000
"and shout at them and shout out
requests." You know?

1095
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:47,480
"Sing Money, John!" You know?

1096
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:49,280
"Taste Of Honey, Paul."

1097
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:51,600
They were so funny with each other.

1098
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:53,520
Oh, it was just magic.

1099
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:55,520
And they'd shout back,
"Like your hair.

1100
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:57,440
"Take the curlers out next time."

1101
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:01,000
I defy anybody that went down and
saw The Beatles

1102
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,760
at The Cavern to come out saying,
"I don't like The Beatles."

1103
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:05,800
You couldn't possibly say that.

1104
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:09,480
They were all popular, but Pete was
the one.

1105
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:12,160
The girls used to just stand and
look at Pete

1106
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:14,160
and even chant, you know,

1107
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:15,960
after the end of songs.

1108
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:20,560
Fans would sleep outside Mona Best's
home to just be near Pete Best.

1109
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:23,560
I mean, he had that kind of
following early on, which really

1110
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:24,960
none of the other Beatles had

1111
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:27,400
quite to that degree.

1112
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,640
At the time, on the Mersey beat
scene, bands weren't doing

1113
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:36,280
their own songs.

1114
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:38,480
If you were on last, all the other
groups had probably

1115
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:40,400
done all your best songs.

1116
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,000
Paul said to John, "John, we've got
to have our own stuff,

1117
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,320
"otherwise we'll never get
anywhere."

1118
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,560
They would take a song that they
loved and then write

1119
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,000
a song that was somewhat similar to
it.

1120
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,120
I mean, if you listen to an early
B-side like This Boy,

1121
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,440
the song itself isn't very far
removed from

1122
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:58,080
what The Shirelles were doing.

1123
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,240
A song like Soldier Boy,
for example.

1124
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:02,640
They were churning out songs
every 20 minutes,

1125
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:04,320
you know, like machines.

1126
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,640
If they didn't finish it in under
20 minutes,

1127
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:08,880
they threw it away and started
another one.

1128
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:13,040
You'd be on the coach on tour and
they would write,

1129
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:18,600
you know, songs for an album in
between Sunderland and Doncaster.

1130
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:22,400
When The Beatles started performing
their own songs,

1131
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:26,560
like One After 909, in live
situations,

1132
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:30,320
no other groups had written their
own songs.

1133
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,320
They would do a Chuck Berry thing,
or whatever, and then suddenly say,

1134
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:35,440
"We're going to do one of our own,
now."

1135
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:38,520
You know, people were sort of, "Oh,
well, do you have to sing that one?

1136
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:40,920
"Why can't you do another
Chuck Berry?"

1137
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,080
John would lie on the carpet,

1138
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,200
in front of the fire,

1139
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:46,600
on his stomach,

1140
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,640
with his legs like that at the back,

1141
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:51,920
beating out whatever it was in his
mind,

1142
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:54,000
and he'd write maybe three or four
lines,

1143
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,160
he'd go, "Ah!" Crumple it up,
throw it on the floor.

1144
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:01,440
There was about 30 or 40 pieces of
paper all crumpled up

1145
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:03,560
and I threw them on the back of the
fire.

1146
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:06,880
And then 20 years into his death,

1147
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:08,880
I was sitting here,

1148
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:12,720
and on the television news,
six o'clock, it said,

1149
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:18,720
"Today in London, at Sotheby's,
a piece of paper with part

1150
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:22,960
"of a John Lennon lyric,
sold for £40,000."

1151
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:26,240
And I went, "Oh, my God, how many
pieces of paper did I

1152
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,360
"throw on that fire?"

1153
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:33,880
The Beatles were getting a bit fed
up, they wanted to break

1154
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,000
out of Liverpool.
They were still playing

1155
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:39,240
at The Cavern to crowds, but
a bit static, nothing was happening.

1156
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:41,480
And then Brian Epstein
came on the scene.

1157
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,080
Well, everybody knew who he was
because he was the manager

1158
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,040
of the biggest record shop.

1159
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,320
He had very good ears for
a hit single.

1160
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,880
Of course, he had that ability to
listen to a record

1161
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,920
that was being plugged by buyers
when they came into the shop.

1162
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,600
He'd say, "That one's a hit,
that isn't a hit."

1163
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:01,920
Brian was telling me he was
interested in this band

1164
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:03,440
that was playing at The Cavern.

1165
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:08,200
And he did ask me to go and listen
to them.

1166
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:10,960
And I sat on the steps,
halfway down,

1167
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:13,840
I listened to them playing Hey Babe,

1168
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,240
and I went back and he said,
"What do you think?"

1169
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,440
I said, "If you don't take them,
somebody will come along

1170
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:21,920
"and take them."

1171
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,400
And he looked at me and said,
"Such as yourself?"

1172
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:25,760
I said, "Possible."

1173
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:27,600
I said, "They're very good."

1174
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:30,840
Brian was mesmerised by us when he
first saw us on stage.

1175
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:33,920
You know, whether it was the
leathers, our attributes, whatever,

1176
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:35,680
you know, that he fell in love with.

1177
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,840
Brian came from an
upper-middle-class

1178
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:42,200
Liverpool, Jewish background.

1179
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:46,640
They were respectability in
Liverpool personified.

1180
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:49,200
A very gentle man,
a very clever man.

1181
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:51,960
Middle-class, probably, and he was,
like, coming down to all

1182
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:53,640
these working-class lads.

1183
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:59,160
The Beatles always came to my house
because Brian's mum wouldn't agree

1184
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:03,440
to four lads in denims and told us,
"No Beatles allowed in that home."

1185
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,000
What you've got to give Brian credit
for was he was the one

1186
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:07,920
that took the gamble...

1187
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,240
with these five uncut diamonds.

1188
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:12,880
After Brian's death, when I talked
to his mother,

1189
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:16,880
Queenie, it was clear that she still
couldn't reconcile

1190
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:22,360
herself with the fact that their son
had slummed it with these people!

1191
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:28,880
Brian said, "Joe, I can't go around
pubs and clubs and ask

1192
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:32,200
"for bookings for a band, can I?"

1193
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:34,680
He said, "Would you stand in,

1194
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:39,240
"come with me and be their booking
manager?"

1195
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:41,680
Big difference with Brian Epstein

1196
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:44,000
is that he was someone with vision.

1197
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,000
Brian was the only person who could
see over the Mersey.

1198
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:50,160
Brian was a fantastic promoter.

1199
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:53,720
Not a great businessman,
didn't do great deals,

1200
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:56,160
but he gave them his soul.

1201
01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:59,760
His strength, as well as his
weakness, was his adulation

1202
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:01,400
for the band.

1203
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:03,480
It was almost obsessive.

1204
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:07,440
The Beatles fulfilled a need in him.

1205
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:11,400
I think he was very restless, he had
a low boredom threshold.

1206
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:15,640
They provided an outlet for his
showbiz theatrical ambitions.

1207
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:18,280
Because he wanted to be a star
himself.

1208
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,520
He was like a frustrated star,
or an actor.

1209
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:23,680
"An ac-tor," he used to say.

1210
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:25,600
"These boys are going to be bigger
than Elvis!"

1211
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:27,840
That was his classic line. All the
time he used it,

1212
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:31,000
before they'd even had a record out,
you know?

1213
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:33,760
And he believed it, he sincerely
believed it.

1214
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:36,880
The simple fact was, his vision was
very clear.

1215
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:40,880
They were going to be big and he was
going to help them.

1216
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,040
London controlled the entire music
industry.

1217
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:57,440
Apart from Mersey Beat,

1218
01:01:57,440 --> 01:01:59,600
every major music paper was down
there.

1219
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:03,200
All the national press was down
there. All the agents, managers,

1220
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:06,800
and, up to then, you had to go down
to London to make it.

1221
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:11,080
The Beatles were very ambitious.

1222
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:13,080
They wanted to make it, whatever it
took.

1223
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:15,000
John knew it was a game.

1224
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:20,920
He was prepared to do anything
within limits in order

1225
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:22,440
to become successful.

1226
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:27,120
He knew that Brian knew how the game
was played.

1227
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:32,240
He had to change The Beatles into a
group that would be acceptable

1228
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:35,720
to the people in the media, to the
radio and TV people.

1229
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:38,760
The establishment were
cigar-smoking,

1230
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:42,200
successful, usually Jewish,
businessmen.

1231
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:45,760
And they were not going to put up
with a bunch of long-haired louts

1232
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:48,680
coming into their office, smoking,
swearing,

1233
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:50,640
wearing leather jackets.

1234
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:54,280
He put them in mohair suits by his
own tailor, Beno Dorn.

1235
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:57,120
He took them to Horne Brothers to
have their hair cut.

1236
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:00,760
Epstein wasn't a totally controlling
manager,

1237
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:02,720
you know, he talked to them about
it.

1238
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:05,400
I've never directed that the boys
should do anything,

1239
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:09,360
either, sort of, song-wise,
artistically-wise,

1240
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:11,400
or speech-wise.

1241
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:16,080
We all make up our minds.

1242
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,480
I contribute, I suppose, a fifth.

1243
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:24,960
I understand where Brian Epstein was
coming from.

1244
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:27,840
Wrong word, but he probably cleaned
them up because they didn't smoke

1245
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:31,160
on stage, they had to be on time,
and they had to bow

1246
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:33,480
if it was a theatre.

1247
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:37,440
You know, Brian liked the wildness,
you know?

1248
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:41,240
It was a foot in the door method to
get across to people

1249
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:45,160
that these were not just roughnecks
but talented individuals.

1250
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:48,200
And that's what Epstein did for
them, otherwise,

1251
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:50,920
they'd have never have got the stage
in the first place.

1252
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:56,280
Brian worked hard to promote
The Beatles,

1253
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:57,640
to get the deal.

1254
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:01,240
You know, he trundled around
London, people ignoring him.

1255
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:05,080
People said to me, "They'll make
mincemeat of him

1256
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:08,080
"in London, they won't get
anything."

1257
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:10,680
He needed a record, a record was
everything,

1258
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:12,160
it was like the Holy Grail.

1259
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:13,480
Get a record.

1260
01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:15,560
Brian hawked the tapes around
London.

1261
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:17,400
Basically every record studio.

1262
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:19,680
He went to Philips, he went to
Polydor,

1263
01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:22,440
he went to everybody,
nobody wanted them.

1264
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:26,160
In desperation, Brian had taken
tapes to Tony Meehan,

1265
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:28,240
who was The Shadows' drummer

1266
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:31,680
who at that time was working as an
A&R man for Dick Rowe.

1267
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:34,560
I recall Brian collared him at some
press reception.

1268
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:37,160
He said, "Tony, have you had a
chance to listen to those tapes yet,

1269
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:38,360
"by The Beatles?"

1270
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:42,320
And Tony Meehan said, "I'm a very
busy man, Mr Epstein."

1271
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:46,080
I think Tony Meehan was about 19 at
the time, but anyway.

1272
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:48,200
The biggest turn down was Decca.

1273
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:52,880
Poor old Dick Rowe always gets it in
the neck for being the man

1274
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:55,920
who turned down The Beatles
at Decca Records.

1275
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:59,480
Dick Rowe recorded The Beatles down
in London and Epstein chose

1276
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:00,800
which songs to sing.

1277
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,920
Things like The Sheik Of Araby,
which was totally wrong.

1278
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:07,400
Hello Little Girl was OK but, you
know, Besame Mucho.

1279
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:09,240
If you listen to the demos,

1280
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:11,080
a lot of them aren't particularly
good.

1281
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:13,120
It's New Year's Day, everybody's a
bit hungover.

1282
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:16,360
They've had a horrendous drive.

1283
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:18,040
It's a bit flat.

1284
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:19,600
As John would say later,

1285
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:22,200
"He was right to turn us down,
we were awful."

1286
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:25,280
I might have turned those tapes
down, myself.

1287
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:28,760
We thought we were going to get
signed by Decca but we didn't.

1288
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:31,000
Brian Poole And The Tremeloes did.

1289
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:33,000
History has judged Dick Rowe very
harshly,

1290
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:34,600
but he did sign the Rolling Stones.

1291
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:36,640
So, he recouped fairly quickly!

1292
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:42,760
It wasn't just Dick Rowe, it was
right across the board.

1293
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:48,120
EMI, Pye, they all turned down those
tapes and it was only

1294
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:50,520
by sheer luck that Brian Epstein

1295
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:53,040
persisted and took those tapes back

1296
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:54,880
to EMI when he heard that

1297
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:56,760
George Martin had been away

1298
01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:58,440
on holiday when he'd made his rounds

1299
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:01,600
previously, and he was somebody he
hadn't tackled.

1300
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:03,280
To be quite honest about it,

1301
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:06,520
most probably, EMI was one of the
last studios

1302
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:08,960
that he managed to get a deal with.

1303
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:10,840
They went down for an audition

1304
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:13,680
and it was Ron Richards, who was
from Parlophone Records,

1305
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:16,440
the A&R man, who was recording them.

1306
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:18,960
The engineer thought it was good and
he went

1307
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:21,280
down to the canteen and brought
George Martin

1308
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:24,240
up and then George Martin took over.

1309
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:28,120
We were very blase about it, you
know?

1310
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:31,440
It was the first time we'd really
been in a proper recording studio.

1311
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:35,400
In Hamburg, we'd recorded on stage
and in a school hall, and all the

1312
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:40,880
other bits and pieces, so seeing a
proper recording studio, EMI...

1313
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:43,440
People that were there were quite
clinical.

1314
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:46,960
George Martin never appeared without
a collar and a tie, and a rather

1315
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:48,760
dapper suit and spoke in a

1316
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:50,600
frightfully posh voice.

1317
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:51,880
And you know, they thought

1318
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:53,480
he was the bee's knees.

1319
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:56,720
We decided on what we were going to
play, and after that, it was

1320
01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:59,680
in the lap of the gods, whether we
got signed or we didn't.

1321
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:09,320
George Martin, who was skating on
thin ice at the time

1322
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:12,040
and likely to have left
the company anyway,

1323
01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:14,080
decided he'd take a chance.

1324
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:17,360
The way in which they were signed to
EMI was quite tortuous

1325
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:20,280
and George Martin had his doubts.

1326
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:26,920
In June 1962, The Beatles went down
to Parlophone and were recorded

1327
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:31,200
by George Martin, and did a version
of Love Me Do and, if you hear

1328
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:34,280
that version of Love Me Do,
for whatever reason,

1329
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:38,080
Pete Best sounds like he's banging a
couple of bin lids on that record.

1330
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:40,640
He just had an off day.

1331
01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:44,000
And George Martin said, "We've got
to use a session drummer

1332
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:46,160
"when we do this song again."

1333
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:49,080
They could only think about, "We've
got one chance with a record deal

1334
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:52,000
"in London, that's it." You know?

1335
01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:54,520
And so, I think that made the
others think,

1336
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:56,640
"Well, this is time for him to go."

1337
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:02,320
My departure from the band, though,
there was no inkling

1338
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:04,160
at all, whatsoever.

1339
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:07,120
You know, that's still
a mystery today.

1340
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:09,800
It was terrible what happened to
him, you know.

1341
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:11,400
Poor Pete, to be told

1342
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:13,880
on the brink of the first recording

1343
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:15,320
that you're out.

1344
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:17,320
There have been so many excuses,

1345
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:19,120
but we've had no actual reason

1346
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:20,600
as to why Peter should leave.

1347
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:23,000
As I say, success is hard to come by

1348
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:24,840
and these things do happen

1349
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:26,680
but it's just the way that it was

1350
01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:28,320
done that has annoyed us.

1351
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:29,840
What did they say, mainly?

1352
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:32,360
Well, you know, the drummer wasn't
too good,

1353
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:34,040
the beat wasn't so hot, you know?

1354
01:08:35,440 --> 01:08:38,920
The reason I was given, I wasn't a
good enough drummer.

1355
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:41,880
People who saw me play then and
people who've seen me play

1356
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:44,640
since then, have turned round
and said, "No,

1357
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:46,000
"that wasn't the decision."

1358
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:48,640
If you listen to his early drumming,
or hear any of his stuff,

1359
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:51,720
he's just as adequate a drummer as
Ringo, if not better.

1360
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:54,560
Then that opens up the enclave into
what the decision

1361
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:56,360
was and then we get all
the other bits,

1362
01:08:56,360 --> 01:08:58,080
jealousy and blah, blah, blah.

1363
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:00,120
It goes on.

1364
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:02,000
So, I suppose the biggest myth is,

1365
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:04,200
right, they're not influencing it,

1366
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:08,280
it's a public decision, that's why
I turn around and say, "Right,

1367
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:10,480
"I'm not a bad drummer, OK?

1368
01:09:10,480 --> 01:09:13,000
"Let the people make their own mind
up about that."

1369
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:17,840
I think maybe the drumming was used

1370
01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:19,720
as an excuse to get rid of him.

1371
01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:22,160
Unfairly.

1372
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:25,440
A clash of personalities?
Well, probably that may be it

1373
01:09:25,440 --> 01:09:30,080
because Peter did have a terrific
fan club,

1374
01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:32,280
you know? Compared to the others,
girls...

1375
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:34,080
Too good-looking, perhaps?

1376
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:37,240
Well, I'll leave that for the
other people to say,

1377
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:41,720
but it could have been done a bit
more straightforward,

1378
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:44,200
would have been more to the mark.

1379
01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:46,720
We had a lot of trouble with Pete's
mother,

1380
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:48,920
Mona Best.

1381
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:52,520
She was constantly ringing up
Brian Epstein and saying,

1382
01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:54,840
"What are you going to do for
Pete's band?"

1383
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:57,520
And Brian Epstein didn't like that
at all.

1384
01:09:57,520 --> 01:10:01,560
Brian phoned me and said, "I'm going
to have to let the band go."

1385
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:04,160
He said, "Maybe you would be
interested?"

1386
01:10:04,160 --> 01:10:05,560
I said, "Why?"

1387
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:07,720
He said, "I can't get over
Mrs Best."

1388
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:11,720
He said, "She's just, you know,
overpowering."

1389
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:14,960
So, we had discussed that it might
be better to get rid

1390
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:18,960
of Mrs Best by getting rid of Pete.

1391
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:23,880
It's a bit like that Agatha Christie
book, Murder On The Orient Express,

1392
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:25,680
where all these people have

1393
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:27,600
different grudges against this
person.

1394
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:32,240
All the people involved around
Pete Best had a reason

1395
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:34,880
for wanting Pete Best to leave
the band.

1396
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:38,000
He looked great and he was a great
drummer, a lovely man.

1397
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:42,600
But he just was not...

1398
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:46,440
He didn't have the same humour as
the other three, or the same...

1399
01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:50,040
..way of life.

1400
01:10:50,040 --> 01:10:51,840
You can't change your personality.

1401
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:53,320
Pete's very quiet.

1402
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:55,920
You know, I liked Pete, but, erm...

1403
01:10:57,440 --> 01:11:00,840
He was different and that probably
didn't work too well

1404
01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:03,480
when you're away a long time
together, stuck together.

1405
01:11:03,480 --> 01:11:07,040
We'd drive back from Newcastle and
he'd go home

1406
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:10,880
while we'd still finish the night
off somewhere.

1407
01:11:12,440 --> 01:11:14,960
The other three were so outgoing and
I think

1408
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:17,880
they needed somebody outgoing.

1409
01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:20,800
I see The Beatles as being
essentially pragmatic.

1410
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:23,600
Once they'd been grounded and
focused by Epstein,

1411
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:26,800
they had a collective ambition, and
anything that stood in the way

1412
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:29,200
of that ambition would be
sacrificed,

1413
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:31,920
and I'm afraid I think
Pete Best was.

1414
01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:36,160
The way I look at it, you know,
just let it lie, now.

1415
01:11:36,160 --> 01:11:37,920
Except for the reports in the
papers,

1416
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:39,680
it gets me a bit niggled at times.

1417
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:43,880
I mean, what is interesting is that
the Mersey Beat that comes out

1418
01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:46,920
following Pete Best's sacking,
says that Pete left the band

1419
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:49,000
by mutual agreement.

1420
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:52,280
I think Bill Harry was fed that by
Brian Epstein as a press release,

1421
01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:55,560
and it was obviously
completely wrong.

1422
01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:01,320
When Pete was fired, I mean, there
was a huge outcry amongst

1423
01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:03,640
the fan club.

1424
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:08,120
It was taboo, it was really
upsetting people.

1425
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:10,800
Nobody wanted Pete to leave
The Beatles.

1426
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:13,920
The reaction from people in
Liverpool was

1427
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:15,240
absolutely incredible.

1428
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:18,040
There was demonstrations,
a march through the city,

1429
01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:19,880
"Bring back Pete."

1430
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:23,720
There were riots in Mathew Street,
posters with,

1431
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:25,840
"Ringo never, Pete forever."

1432
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:28,800
George got punched in the face.

1433
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:33,000
There was lots of trouble, even
Ringo Starr was threatened.

1434
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:34,680
I used to be good mates with Ringo,

1435
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:36,400
you know, before the replacement.

1436
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:38,960
We're still mates now but I haven't

1437
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:40,800
seen him to have a chat with him

1438
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:42,800
or anything like that.

1439
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:45,040
It was very heart-warming for
myself,

1440
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:47,040
seeing the support I had,

1441
01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:51,040
but deep down inside, I knew that
the decision had been made.

1442
01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:53,760
You know? Regardless of what
happened, the door wasn't going

1443
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:55,200
to be opened again.

1444
01:12:59,440 --> 01:13:02,560
Ringo had played with The Beatles on
occasions, when Pete Best

1445
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:05,960
had been ill, so they knew they
could get on well with him.

1446
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:11,280
He fitted into the band more
perfectly as a personality.

1447
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:12,640
He tried to fit in.

1448
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:25,680
He'd be sitting, chatting and having
a toasted cheese sandwich

1449
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:31,640
and a Scotch and coke, and everyone
became very fond of him.

1450
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:34,400
I would class Ringo as the happy
Beatle.

1451
01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:37,840
You know, he was always dancing and
singing along with different

1452
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:41,040
songs or humming a song, you know?

1453
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:44,680
I've always said Ringo was a very
lucky person,

1454
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:48,640
and I was sitting here in this room
one night with Paul McCartney

1455
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:51,320
and I said, "There's one lucky
person, isn't there, Paul?"

1456
01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:53,760
And he said, "Don't go down there,
Joe."

1457
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:55,720
He said, "Leave him alone."

1458
01:13:55,720 --> 01:13:58,600
Ringo had a pretty sad childhood.

1459
01:13:58,600 --> 01:14:02,800
In the early 1990s, he was back in
Liverpool and he was remembering

1460
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:07,680
the places that he knew in
Liverpool, and invariably he goes to
hospitals.

1461
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:09,240
Did you enjoy your stay in hospital?

1462
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:11,560
Oh, it was nice, thanks. I had a
good time.

1463
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:13,040
How did you get on with the nurses?

1464
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:15,200
Not so bad, you know? Very nice
nurses.

1465
01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:17,320
Were you a model patient, do you
think?

1466
01:14:17,320 --> 01:14:19,080
You'd better ask the nurses about
that.

1467
01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:21,760
What did you dislike about being in
hospital?

1468
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:24,480
Nothing, really, because I had to go
in, so,

1469
01:14:24,480 --> 01:14:27,400
you know, I just sort of settled
down and read and played records

1470
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:28,880
and got used to it again.

1471
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:33,160
He was in hospital so many times and
not at school that the kids used

1472
01:14:33,160 --> 01:14:34,640
to call him Lazarus.

1473
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:37,320
At the end of school, you had to
have a signed report

1474
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:40,480
saying, you know, you'd been a
student at the school,

1475
01:14:40,480 --> 01:14:42,480
and the teachers didn't even know
who he was.

1476
01:14:42,480 --> 01:14:46,320
I knew his mum and his stepdad.

1477
01:14:46,320 --> 01:14:50,360
Elsie was lovely, she'd always give
you a cup of tea.

1478
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:54,080
Mrs Gleave-Starkey, does Ringo want
to move house?

1479
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:56,240
I don't really think so, he's asked

1480
01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:57,720
us to have another house

1481
01:14:57,720 --> 01:14:59,520
but we're quite happy here.

1482
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:01,120
Has Ringo suggested you should stop
work

1483
01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:03,120
as a Liverpool Corporation painter?

1484
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:05,400
He certainly has, but I don't want
to move.

1485
01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:07,880
I like my job and I like the people
I work with.

1486
01:15:07,880 --> 01:15:10,160
Ringo, he was like the final piece
in the jigsaw,

1487
01:15:10,160 --> 01:15:12,520
you know, of Beatledom.

1488
01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:14,080
It's that indefinable element.

1489
01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:15,960
You just know when something works,

1490
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:18,280
when something doesn't and, in
particular with music,

1491
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:20,200
where it is so much to do with feel
and instinct,

1492
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:21,880
that's very important.

1493
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:27,480
They eventually got a recording
contract to make the first record.

1494
01:15:27,480 --> 01:15:30,800
Brian came home to Lime Street and
we were all waiting

1495
01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:33,480
there for him and it was like the
Prime Minister

1496
01:15:33,480 --> 01:15:35,840
who was waving the paper at the
beginning of the war.

1497
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:37,880
He said, "Success, success!"

1498
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:46,840
George Martin didn't think they were
going to be this fantastic band,

1499
01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:52,120
he gave them a tiny royalty and he
thought, "We'll try them."

1500
01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:55,120
Eventually, they came out with the
number Love Me Do,

1501
01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:59,600
but it didn't have much impact in
the music paper charts.

1502
01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:02,400
In those days, you could buy your

1503
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:05,160
way into the charts and Love Me Do

1504
01:16:05,160 --> 01:16:07,160
wasn't doing too well, so we ordered

1505
01:16:07,160 --> 01:16:09,680
10,000 to help it along.

1506
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:14,480
Brian bought them, stocked the shops
and sold them all.

1507
01:16:14,480 --> 01:16:18,480
He was a record retailer, first and
foremost.

1508
01:16:18,480 --> 01:16:21,400
Of course, it went to number one in
Mersey Beat,

1509
01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:23,720
we were the only people to have that
record

1510
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:25,200
as a number-one record.

1511
01:16:25,200 --> 01:16:28,080
People didn't believe that Liverpool
was selling all these records,

1512
01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:29,680
but they were.

1513
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:33,800
The impact it had on kids around the
country was, sort of, tremendous.

1514
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:36,040
It was something different,
something new.

1515
01:16:38,680 --> 01:16:41,720
I got shivers down my spine when I
heard them singing

1516
01:16:41,720 --> 01:16:44,160
on the radio and I thought, "This is
ridiculous,

1517
01:16:44,160 --> 01:16:46,960
"I've seen these guys playing so
many times and now

1518
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:49,600
"they're on the wireless."

1519
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:53,080
I could see that something was going
to happen when Please Please Me

1520
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:54,720
went to number one. The second one.

1521
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:56,520
And you knew something was going to
happen.

1522
01:16:56,520 --> 01:16:59,000
Suddenly, there's John, Paul and
George and I thought,

1523
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:02,120
"What the bloody hell are they doing
on the telly?!"

1524
01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:05,440
And that was it and, after that, you
couldn't pick up a newspaper

1525
01:17:05,440 --> 01:17:07,120
without them having a haircut.

1526
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:09,680
Now, Ringo, I hear you were
manhandled at the embassy ball.

1527
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:11,560
What happened, exactly?
I don't know.

1528
01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:14,440
I was just talking, like I am now,

1529
01:17:14,440 --> 01:17:17,560
I was talking away and then...

1530
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:19,120
I just looked round

1531
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:22,080
and you just saw all the faces.

1532
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:24,160
Well, you got the usual, didn't you?

1533
01:17:24,160 --> 01:17:27,480
"Oh, can I have pieces of hair?"

1534
01:17:27,480 --> 01:17:30,920
Which, in the beginning, I thought
was a bit odd.

1535
01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:33,520
So, in the end, I thought, "You know
what? I can do this."

1536
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:36,240
So, I went over to the hairdressers,
cos it was only over the road

1537
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:38,800
from where we worked, and I just
picked the hair up,

1538
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:42,600
put in an envelope, and I would
write on the envelope whose hair it

1539
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:45,160
was, so I didn't get it mixed up.

1540
01:17:46,480 --> 01:17:48,160
So, there's a lot of hair out there.

1541
01:17:49,720 --> 01:17:52,160
I phoned Brian and said, "Can we
have The Beatles

1542
01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:53,640
"for a photo session?"

1543
01:17:53,640 --> 01:17:56,120
And Brian's answer was,
"Yes, if you send a limo

1544
01:17:56,120 --> 01:17:57,920
"to the Westmorland Hotel."

1545
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:00,480
I said, "We don't send limos for
Cliff Richard!"

1546
01:18:00,480 --> 01:18:02,440
Rather prissily.

1547
01:18:02,440 --> 01:18:04,720
And Brian said, "These boys are
going to be bigger

1548
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:07,800
"than Elvis Presley, never mind
Cliff Richard."

1549
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:10,680
So, we sent a limo.

1550
01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:19,640
I could not believe that The Beatles
that I was seeing in The Cavern

1551
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:23,840
were actually on our biggest theatre
in Liverpool.

1552
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:26,560
To me, that was it. They were
famous.

1553
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:29,280
And I think that was the point when
I thought,

1554
01:18:29,280 --> 01:18:32,320
"Oh, dear. I think that I should
have finished that guitar.

1555
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:36,200
"I've missed out, here!"

1556
01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:40,360
Do you deliberately try and create
this, sort of, screaming reaction?

1557
01:18:40,360 --> 01:18:43,120
No, we just, you know, arrive at the
theatre

1558
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:45,200
and they're always there waiting.

1559
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:47,680
And whenever we're doing a show, the
police always come and say,

1560
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:50,200
"Don't look out the window,
you know, because you excite them."

1561
01:18:50,200 --> 01:18:51,600
LAUGHTER

1562
01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:02,240
If you're going to be a star,
Liverpool wasn't big enough.

1563
01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:05,760
They had to move down to London, you
know, it was inevitable.

1564
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:08,560
And people did feel left behind and
there was some animosity,

1565
01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:10,400
but it had to happen.

1566
01:19:15,920 --> 01:19:18,800
The Beatles were always very aware
of their roots.

1567
01:19:18,800 --> 01:19:21,200
They didn't, sort of, say,
"We're off, now."

1568
01:19:21,200 --> 01:19:24,560
They said, "Come with us, we want
our pals all around us."

1569
01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:27,880
Their pals would keep them real.

1570
01:19:27,880 --> 01:19:29,400
You use the word "joy"

1571
01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:31,320
about the best moments of it.

1572
01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:33,400
That's a very strong word, "joy",

1573
01:19:33,400 --> 01:19:34,720
was it that much fun?

1574
01:19:34,720 --> 01:19:36,400
Oh, yes.

1575
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:39,400
It was just something that went on
and on and on, and got better

1576
01:19:39,400 --> 01:19:41,800
and better and bigger and bigger.

1577
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:45,640
And being in the centre of it,
you just got swept along.

1578
01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:48,960
It was always like the idea,
"Oh, it's all going to stop

1579
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:51,000
"tomorrow." You know?

1580
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:53,000
It never did.

1581
01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:58,040
Anthology 1, when it was released in
1995,

1582
01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:00,560
had, I think, 12 tracks featuring

1583
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:05,400
Pete Best, and the worldwide sales
of it were over 13 million.

1584
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:09,120
Out of the blue, we got a phone call
from Paul McCartney.

1585
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:11,880
Paul was honourable

1586
01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:15,640
and gave Pete what he was due.

1587
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:18,880
My life since then has been
absolutely incredible, you know?

1588
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:21,280
I've still got a great band, which
tours the world.

1589
01:20:21,280 --> 01:20:23,240
They do a lot of Beatles songs.

1590
01:20:23,240 --> 01:20:25,680
And I asked him why, he said, "Well,
because they're bloody

1591
01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:27,920
"good songs, why wouldn't you?"

1592
01:20:27,920 --> 01:20:31,440
I'm still alive, still healthy,
still go for a pint,

1593
01:20:31,440 --> 01:20:35,680
still enjoy myself, got a great
family.

1594
01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:38,160
You know, wife who I've been
married to for 50-odd years.

1595
01:20:38,160 --> 01:20:41,240
Daughters, grandchildren.

1596
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:44,120
I've had a wonderful life, I hope it
continues.

1597
01:20:46,920 --> 01:20:51,040
You remember being part of a huge
revolution that changed the music

1598
01:20:51,040 --> 01:20:52,680
of the world.

1599
01:20:52,680 --> 01:20:55,760
The Beatles turned the whole
recording scene upside down.

1600
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:58,640
They were, as Brian Epstein
memorably said,

1601
01:20:58,640 --> 01:21:00,120
"Bigger than Elvis."

1602
01:21:02,040 --> 01:21:03,960
They were four Elvises.

1603
01:21:03,960 --> 01:21:05,280
They were that big.

1604
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:12,360
Every day with The Beatles was a
joy...

1605
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:13,880
a laugh and an adventure.