1 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,240 I'm in Kenya for a rare interview with the 2 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:13,650 all-American entrepreneur and titan of technology, 3 00:00:13,650 --> 00:00:14,920 Bill Gates. 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:20,030 For decades, Bill Gates was the richest man on Earth, 5 00:00:20,030 --> 00:00:23,280 a tech geek whose zeal and work ethic made him 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,600 the very face of American computing and capitalism. 7 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,160 Then he decided to give his money away. 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:35,050 He's donated tens of billions to fighting for global causes. 9 00:00:35,050 --> 00:00:37,040 He's hyper rational, 10 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:42,350 but behind those glasses are 67 years of emotion and experience. 11 00:00:42,350 --> 00:00:43,600 I want to access that. 12 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:45,350 I want to find out what motivates him, 13 00:00:45,350 --> 00:00:48,520 why conspiracy theorists are so obsessed with him, 14 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:53,950 and at what cost all that power, influence and wealth have come. 15 00:01:08,790 --> 00:01:12,150 I'm touring farms and hospitals in the remote region 16 00:01:12,150 --> 00:01:16,030 of Kathonzweni in Kenya, with the founder of Microsoft. 17 00:01:16,030 --> 00:01:18,070 OK, so you put it in here. 18 00:01:19,070 --> 00:01:21,190 Why are you feeding some chickens? 19 00:01:21,190 --> 00:01:23,190 Even chickens have to eat. 20 00:01:23,190 --> 00:01:26,920 I want to find out how he's getting on in his new full-time vocation 21 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:28,760 as a philanthropist, 22 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,920 and ask him some of the tough and personal questions 23 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,240 that follow him around the world. 24 00:01:37,310 --> 00:01:39,910 And I've managed to carve some time out of his meticulous 25 00:01:39,910 --> 00:01:41,710 minute-by-minute schedule. 26 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,090 What's the thing that you were doing there at that farm? 27 00:01:45,090 --> 00:01:47,560 Why was I surrounded by chickens? 28 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,710 Well, chickens are high quality protein. 29 00:01:51,710 --> 00:01:54,210 Both the chicken meat and eggs. 30 00:01:54,210 --> 00:01:58,510 And if you want young children to be healthy, 31 00:01:58,510 --> 00:02:03,600 mixing into their diet more than just a bean and cereal crop, 32 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,680 those chickens are... 33 00:02:07,270 --> 00:02:10,160 ..much better than the chickens they used to have. 34 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,590 They're more resistant to disease. 35 00:02:13,590 --> 00:02:16,790 They lay more eggs, they grow more meat. 36 00:02:16,790 --> 00:02:18,160 They're big. 37 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:23,560 It takes grant capital to fund all of that science. 38 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,160 Through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, 39 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:27,790 which he set up with his former wife, 40 00:02:27,790 --> 00:02:30,990 Gates has pledged to give away most of the billions of dollars 41 00:02:30,990 --> 00:02:33,590 that he made at Microsoft 42 00:02:33,590 --> 00:02:35,910 to solve what he feels are the biggest problems 43 00:02:35,910 --> 00:02:37,550 facing our species - 44 00:02:37,550 --> 00:02:40,280 hunger, disease and climate change. 45 00:02:42,110 --> 00:02:45,910 Did you come to philanthropy in a kind of eureka moment, 46 00:02:45,910 --> 00:02:48,170 where you thought, "Right, this is what I'm going to do. 47 00:02:48,170 --> 00:02:49,440 "It's a rational calculation. 48 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:51,070 "My kids can't have all this money, 49 00:02:51,070 --> 00:02:53,430 "so I should give it away and do it effectively." 50 00:02:53,430 --> 00:02:56,870 Or did you, over time, get exposed to thoughts and ideas 51 00:02:56,870 --> 00:02:58,280 that made you think, you know, 52 00:02:58,280 --> 00:02:59,910 "This is a good thing to do with my life." 53 00:02:59,910 --> 00:03:03,390 I knew that the wealth of Microsoft was far more 54 00:03:03,390 --> 00:03:06,750 than I or my family would need. 55 00:03:06,750 --> 00:03:10,000 When Melinda and I found out about how little 56 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,470 was going into saving children's lives, 57 00:03:12,470 --> 00:03:14,640 which was kind of shocking to us, 58 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:17,190 then we realised we should get going right away, 59 00:03:17,190 --> 00:03:20,510 and we started funding vaccines and work on malaria. 60 00:03:20,510 --> 00:03:22,550 And then later, 61 00:03:22,550 --> 00:03:28,110 I decided I would shift, er, my time also, 62 00:03:28,110 --> 00:03:32,190 and so in 2008, I left Microsoft 63 00:03:32,190 --> 00:03:35,950 and became full-time in my foundation work. 64 00:03:35,950 --> 00:03:38,550 How do you decide what your priorities are? 65 00:03:38,550 --> 00:03:40,680 You know, a few hundred miles northeast from here, 66 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,590 there's this huge issue in Somalia, you know, dreadful drought. 67 00:03:43,590 --> 00:03:45,390 What do you do when someone from Somalia says, 68 00:03:45,390 --> 00:03:46,870 "Hey, come and see us." 69 00:03:46,870 --> 00:03:51,110 Yeah. So our Foundation, although we support some emergency relief, 70 00:03:51,110 --> 00:03:57,230 the place that we're very strong is the new tools. 71 00:03:57,230 --> 00:04:01,320 So better seeds, better systems to advise farmers 72 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,690 using their cellphones, digital money, 73 00:04:03,690 --> 00:04:06,550 so they're not paying bank fees 74 00:04:06,550 --> 00:04:10,750 and a lot in health, new vaccines. 75 00:04:10,750 --> 00:04:13,230 So we're by far the biggest funder on malaria, 76 00:04:13,230 --> 00:04:17,030 coming up with new bed nets, new drugs... 77 00:04:17,030 --> 00:04:19,640 ..a vaccine, a way of killing mosquitoes. 78 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,350 Yeah, but if you think about this in terms of ethics, 79 00:04:22,350 --> 00:04:26,030 are you driven in your philanthropy mostly by excitement, 80 00:04:26,030 --> 00:04:27,470 by the potential outcome, 81 00:04:27,470 --> 00:04:30,310 or does it come from some deep psychological motive, 82 00:04:30,310 --> 00:04:32,790 you know, guilt, a feeling that you should live a life 83 00:04:32,790 --> 00:04:35,310 that's purposeful, a feeling that, you know, 84 00:04:35,310 --> 00:04:37,990 you genuinely just don't know what to do with this cash? 85 00:04:37,990 --> 00:04:42,230 I not only want to put the money in, but I want to put my time in 86 00:04:42,230 --> 00:04:45,510 and assemble people so we can learn, 87 00:04:45,510 --> 00:04:48,590 you know, what health systems work, which ones don't. 88 00:04:48,590 --> 00:04:52,230 I, you know, find the work very fulfilling. 89 00:04:52,230 --> 00:04:55,990 I get to learn new things. Get to go to interesting places. 90 00:04:55,990 --> 00:04:58,080 Yeah. There's no sacrifice involved. 91 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,190 It's... Well, it's quite a lot of financial sacrifice! 92 00:05:01,190 --> 00:05:03,470 Sure, but I don't have any use for that money. 93 00:05:03,470 --> 00:05:07,040 I mean, I'm not denying myself, you know, 94 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,670 the world's best cheeseburger, you know? 95 00:05:09,670 --> 00:05:11,750 Is that your food of choice, a great cheeseburger? 96 00:05:11,750 --> 00:05:15,440 It's the food I eat more than anything else. 97 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,350 Bill Gates is able to enjoy philanthropy 98 00:05:17,350 --> 00:05:21,670 because for much of his life, he was the richest man in the world. 99 00:05:28,430 --> 00:05:30,230 Hey, Bill Gates is here. 100 00:05:32,430 --> 00:05:35,150 And though his beginnings were somewhat humbler, 101 00:05:35,150 --> 00:05:38,230 he still had a pretty comfortable childhood. 102 00:05:39,670 --> 00:05:44,150 Born in Seattle in 1955, his father was a successful lawyer. 103 00:05:44,150 --> 00:05:48,870 His mother, a teacher and influential community figure. 104 00:05:48,870 --> 00:05:51,230 But it wasn't all plain sailing. 105 00:05:52,790 --> 00:05:54,950 One thing that some people may not know about you 106 00:05:54,950 --> 00:05:58,120 is that very interestingly, your family referred you 107 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,030 for some therapy when you were 12. 108 00:06:00,030 --> 00:06:01,750 What was going on that made them do that? 109 00:06:01,750 --> 00:06:04,670 Oh, I was just a little rebellious, 110 00:06:04,670 --> 00:06:09,760 and they thought if I talked to a psychologist, 111 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,040 I'd...understand about, uh... 112 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,680 ..cooperating with the family, maybe? Obeying the rules. 113 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:20,410 But 12-year-olds are rebellious, 114 00:06:20,410 --> 00:06:22,480 wasn't it quite a big deal for a family 115 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,840 on the West Coast of America then, what's that, late 1960s? 116 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:28,840 Isn't that quite a big deal? It wasn't that unusual, but... 117 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,720 ..I, you know, was reading on my own and, you know, 118 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,640 trying to prove my independence. 119 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:38,360 The person I went to see was fantastic 120 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,080 and actually got me to think 121 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,030 in a way that, you know, having any conflict with my parents 122 00:06:45,030 --> 00:06:47,170 was kind of a waste of time. 123 00:06:47,170 --> 00:06:52,230 So, in the end, they were glad they had me do a few sessions. 124 00:06:52,230 --> 00:06:53,750 Would you recommend it? 125 00:06:53,750 --> 00:06:55,950 Um, sure I... 126 00:06:56,950 --> 00:06:59,240 ..I think, you know, when you step back from your life 127 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,050 and look at where you're having conflict 128 00:07:01,050 --> 00:07:04,350 or where you're not fulfilling the things you want, 129 00:07:04,350 --> 00:07:06,910 it can be helpful to have a professional 130 00:07:06,910 --> 00:07:10,990 who's guiding you through that thought process. 131 00:07:10,990 --> 00:07:13,830 Clearly, the therapy helped. 132 00:07:13,830 --> 00:07:15,470 Bill excelled at high school, 133 00:07:15,470 --> 00:07:18,560 where he made friends with fellow genius Paul Allen. 134 00:07:20,350 --> 00:07:23,760 They spent hours playing around with a teletype computer, 135 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:25,640 initially writing code for fun, 136 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,590 before monetising their skills writing software 137 00:07:28,590 --> 00:07:31,350 for the local government. 138 00:07:31,350 --> 00:07:34,760 But the key moment would come in 1974, 139 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,240 when Paul Allen saw the new Altair 8800 computer 140 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,150 on the cover of a magazine 141 00:07:40,150 --> 00:07:44,790 and implored his old friend Bill to help him write the software. 142 00:07:44,790 --> 00:07:47,030 Gates dropped out of Harvard to dedicate himself 143 00:07:47,030 --> 00:07:50,310 to his new company, Microsoft, 144 00:07:50,310 --> 00:07:55,030 and 20 years later, he was the richest man on Earth. 145 00:07:55,030 --> 00:07:58,990 I'm fascinated by the combination of factors 146 00:07:58,990 --> 00:08:01,270 that make great entrepreneurial success. 147 00:08:01,270 --> 00:08:04,670 So there's key partnerships, in your case with Paul Allen, 148 00:08:04,670 --> 00:08:05,830 your co-founder. 149 00:08:05,830 --> 00:08:09,390 There's a sense of vision, a sense of purpose, a huge work ethic 150 00:08:09,390 --> 00:08:10,590 and also a sense of timing, 151 00:08:10,590 --> 00:08:12,590 being in the right place at the right time. 152 00:08:12,590 --> 00:08:15,280 When you think now, with the benefit of experience, 153 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,750 about that magic mix that makes great entrepreneurs, 154 00:08:17,750 --> 00:08:20,630 what do you think is THE vital ingredient? 155 00:08:20,630 --> 00:08:23,910 Well, I think it takes most all of those to be there 156 00:08:23,910 --> 00:08:25,840 all at the same time. 157 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,670 We recognise something that very few did, 158 00:08:29,670 --> 00:08:33,270 which was that the software would be quite valuable, 159 00:08:33,270 --> 00:08:35,680 that the hardware would get so cheap, 160 00:08:35,680 --> 00:08:38,630 that actually the software piece 161 00:08:38,630 --> 00:08:42,270 would be important, and that the computers wouldn't just be this big, 162 00:08:42,270 --> 00:08:44,670 expensive thing that only big companies had, 163 00:08:44,670 --> 00:08:47,310 it would literally be, as we said, 164 00:08:47,310 --> 00:08:49,350 people laughed at the time, 165 00:08:49,350 --> 00:08:52,670 on every desk, in every home. 166 00:08:52,670 --> 00:08:54,870 And it was one of the things that made Microsoft 167 00:08:54,870 --> 00:08:56,750 so wealthy so quickly, that you were first. 168 00:08:56,750 --> 00:08:58,270 We were first. 169 00:08:58,270 --> 00:09:01,910 Then a lot of other companies came along, and they came and went. 170 00:09:01,910 --> 00:09:06,480 Our speed of engineering, our low prices, our global presence, 171 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,320 we became not only the first, 172 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,550 but also, by far, the most successful software company. 173 00:09:13,550 --> 00:09:16,630 It's interesting you mention low prices and competition because 174 00:09:16,630 --> 00:09:19,190 some of our older viewers will know from these very famous 175 00:09:19,190 --> 00:09:21,680 antitrust cases in the 1980s and 1990s, 176 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:23,840 basically very huge, very big, 177 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,240 very costly antitrust cases looking at whether or not 178 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,840 Microsoft unfairly crushed competition. 179 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,250 To what extent would you say that your business practises 180 00:09:32,250 --> 00:09:34,310 back then were pretty ruthless? 181 00:09:36,990 --> 00:09:40,790 You know, we were vindicated on all of that stuff. 182 00:09:40,790 --> 00:09:43,960 You know, the company never, er, 183 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,080 had to raise our prices or anything. 184 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,720 You know, they were saying that it was hard to compete with us. 185 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,040 I mean, you worked very hard for a long time. 186 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:56,690 You are a hard taskmaster. 187 00:09:56,690 --> 00:09:58,760 You memorised the number plates of your staff's vehicles 188 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,640 sometimes so you knew when they were coming in and out of the car park, 189 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,880 you had famous outbursts of, 190 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,280 "That's the stupidest effing thing I've ever heard." 191 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,760 You very rarely took holidays or weekends. 192 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:13,770 There is something of a parallel here with some people, arguably, 193 00:10:13,770 --> 00:10:16,000 describe what Elon Musk does these days. 194 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,030 And you've described your own work ethic as fanatical. 195 00:10:19,030 --> 00:10:20,750 But if you're honest now, looking back, 196 00:10:20,750 --> 00:10:23,630 do you feel like you were something of a tyrant? 197 00:10:23,630 --> 00:10:25,350 Uh... 198 00:10:25,350 --> 00:10:28,200 Did you have to be? Working, for me, 199 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:33,160 was a guaranteed way to make tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. 200 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,120 HE LAUGHS 201 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,720 And to work on some of the most interesting, 202 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:39,650 amazing things possible. 203 00:10:39,650 --> 00:10:41,160 I wish you'd give me a call. 204 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,920 Do you have any regrets about how you treated staff? 205 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,000 The people who worked, who would have been in meetings 206 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:51,970 directly with me, and were all hyper successful, 207 00:10:51,970 --> 00:10:56,450 there may have been some people who couldn't, you know, 208 00:10:56,450 --> 00:10:59,560 my style, which was, "Hey, we've got to move fast. 209 00:10:59,560 --> 00:11:00,800 "We've got to be tough." 210 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,870 You know, we may have missed some very talented people, but, 211 00:11:03,870 --> 00:11:06,670 you know, everybody who was there wanted to be there. 212 00:11:06,670 --> 00:11:10,390 It was...I bet everyone would describe it as one of the most 213 00:11:10,390 --> 00:11:12,240 amazing parts of their life. 214 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,880 I wonder, in that context, what you make of, and whether or not 215 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,760 you look with a wry smile, at Elon Musk's management style. 216 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:19,520 I mean, when you're describing yourself, 217 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:23,400 it makes me think of what I read about Musk today. 218 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,470 No, I wasn't, you know, going out to the public and insulting 219 00:11:27,470 --> 00:11:30,990 the president of the United States or something like that, I mean... 220 00:11:30,990 --> 00:11:32,190 Yeah. 221 00:11:32,190 --> 00:11:34,750 But in the sense of driving a company hard, pushing staff, 222 00:11:34,750 --> 00:11:36,550 a huge sense of mission and purpose, 223 00:11:36,550 --> 00:11:38,470 I mean, that's part of what he's about. 224 00:11:38,470 --> 00:11:41,350 Well, I didn't run, you know, three companies at a time. 225 00:11:41,350 --> 00:11:44,320 So you could say he's more talented than I was. 226 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,950 He might say that. I believed in magic of software, 227 00:11:47,950 --> 00:11:51,120 and, you know, I was focused on that. 228 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:56,240 I wasn't making comments on politicians and every trend 229 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,160 of the day, you know. 230 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,760 Hard work, we have that in common. 231 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:02,800 Otherwise, you know, there's some differences. 232 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,360 There are some differences, and I'm not suggesting for a moment 233 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,160 you have any time on your hands these days, 234 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,800 but if he asked you to come in and say, chair the board of Twitter, 235 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:11,990 would you say to him, take him aside and say, 236 00:12:11,990 --> 00:12:14,720 "Elon, maybe spend less time insulting the American president, 237 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:16,890 "maybe run one company instead of three or several?" 238 00:12:16,890 --> 00:12:18,680 I'm sure he has people telling him that, 239 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:22,480 and I'm sure he's decided to ignore them. 240 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,430 Musk says he wants to use technology to liberate humanity, 241 00:12:25,430 --> 00:12:26,870 and a lot of people look at what 242 00:12:26,870 --> 00:12:28,670 you're mentioning about social media, 243 00:12:28,670 --> 00:12:32,210 and they say our relationship with technology is going badly wrong. 244 00:12:32,210 --> 00:12:34,750 Do you ever worry that what you did 245 00:12:34,750 --> 00:12:36,470 helped to unleash technologies 246 00:12:36,470 --> 00:12:39,070 that helped humanity in the short term, but in the long term, 247 00:12:39,070 --> 00:12:40,390 could set us back? 248 00:12:41,510 --> 00:12:44,870 Well, most of the things that Microsoft did specifically, 249 00:12:44,870 --> 00:12:48,200 like, let you have a nice word processor, 250 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,720 you know, nobody blames Microsoft if you write a nasty note, 251 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,480 you know, or some evil plan using that word processor. 252 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,310 Now we're getting into how people communicate. 253 00:13:00,310 --> 00:13:02,310 You know, we're sort of replacing media 254 00:13:02,310 --> 00:13:05,550 with a lot of these digital forums. 255 00:13:05,550 --> 00:13:10,840 And they're, you know, it is the downside of 256 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:16,870 people being ill informed and sort of sharing...lies with each other 257 00:13:16,870 --> 00:13:19,070 has caught me a bit by surprise. 258 00:13:19,070 --> 00:13:22,670 I do think on balance, it's still all very positive, 259 00:13:22,670 --> 00:13:26,870 but, you know, other people get to judge that and set the rules. 260 00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:31,090 You know, would we be better off if you had no social media? 261 00:13:31,090 --> 00:13:33,130 Some people definitely feel that way. 262 00:13:33,130 --> 00:13:36,720 The judgment on how you stop those digital forms 263 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,210 from being toxic and driving, sort of, the worst of us 264 00:13:40,210 --> 00:13:42,560 as opposed to enlightening us, 265 00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:45,760 which as we were creating all these things, you know, 266 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,880 we saw the opportunity to make education better and learn. 267 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,810 The fact that people are pushing conspiracy theories, 268 00:13:52,810 --> 00:13:54,600 that's a bit of a surprise to me. 269 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,160 And, you know, can we be creative to get rid of 270 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,840 or at least minimise that bad stuff? It's an open question. 271 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,760 Yeah, because we're having a civilised conversation, 272 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,200 and a lot of people would say one of the biggest lessons 273 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,880 from social media is it's made having civilised conversation 274 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:10,190 much, much harder. 275 00:14:10,190 --> 00:14:12,710 And do you worry that we are seeing a kind of 276 00:14:12,710 --> 00:14:16,350 really severe toxification, a decline in the public domain, 277 00:14:16,350 --> 00:14:18,120 where being able to disagree respectfully 278 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:19,670 is getting very, very hard? 279 00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:22,150 That would be very bad. 280 00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:23,510 Is it happening? 281 00:14:23,510 --> 00:14:28,270 The degree of political polarisation in the United States, 282 00:14:28,270 --> 00:14:31,920 and we see that somewhat outside the United States, 283 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:37,080 is higher than it's ever been in my lifetime, and it scares me. 284 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,440 I don't blame digital media for all of that, 285 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,400 but it does seem to magnify it, 286 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,550 that, you know, some, you know, QAnon idea, I mean, literally, 287 00:14:45,550 --> 00:14:53,120 there's people elected who believe in these QAnon conspiracy theories. 288 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:58,720 So, erm, I hope that smart young people 289 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:00,360 can take and shape 290 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,670 these digital forms to be more constructive 291 00:15:03,670 --> 00:15:05,790 and get rid of the negative things. 292 00:15:05,790 --> 00:15:09,830 You know, I think the next generation is always given 293 00:15:09,830 --> 00:15:13,230 some great breakthroughs and some challenges 294 00:15:13,230 --> 00:15:15,030 that come with those breakthroughs, 295 00:15:15,030 --> 00:15:17,510 and I don't think my generation, you know, 296 00:15:17,510 --> 00:15:21,190 took care of the downside of digital media. 297 00:15:21,190 --> 00:15:24,550 And so I hope that gets solved, 298 00:15:24,550 --> 00:15:27,990 because what that's done to political discourse, I think, 299 00:15:27,990 --> 00:15:30,910 has made it even somewhat worse than it would be without it. 300 00:15:30,910 --> 00:15:33,830 Well, since we've gone there, we're talking about conspiracies, 301 00:15:33,830 --> 00:15:36,310 about QAnon and people who get elected off the back of it, 302 00:15:36,310 --> 00:15:40,400 do you mind just telling the story of when you first met Donald Trump? 303 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,990 You know, I don't really understand him. 304 00:15:43,990 --> 00:15:47,360 I'm always going to meet on behalf of our Foundation 305 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:48,910 with the US President. 306 00:15:48,910 --> 00:15:52,510 You know, the US President controls the biggest aid budget in the world, 307 00:15:52,510 --> 00:15:55,600 and so one of the things I went into that meeting saying was, 308 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,670 "Hey, let's, during your term as president, 309 00:15:58,670 --> 00:16:00,870 "you know, find a cure for HIV. 310 00:16:00,870 --> 00:16:04,830 "Let's pick some high impact science goals for the world." 311 00:16:04,830 --> 00:16:07,430 None of that ever came to pass, 312 00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:11,320 but I don't feel bad that I tried. 313 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,360 What do you make of the fact that he's running for president again? 314 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:15,570 Um... 315 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:22,720 You know, I hope that we can move on to new Republican candidates 316 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,920 who are more forward looking, 317 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,800 more believing in election integrity. 318 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,600 But my prediction on politics are not uniquely good, 319 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,990 my understanding of science and picking scientists and, you know, 320 00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:39,070 funding things in that realm, I have experience. 321 00:16:39,070 --> 00:16:41,920 But in politics, I never expected him to be elected, 322 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:46,550 so I'm disqualified for any predictions related to him. 323 00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:49,870 I just wonder what went through your mind when you saw 324 00:16:49,870 --> 00:16:52,160 those pictures of rioters in Washington 325 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:53,870 storming the Capitol building? 326 00:16:53,870 --> 00:16:56,190 I mean, did you think that you'd see that in your lifetime? 327 00:16:56,190 --> 00:16:58,310 No. It's deeply troubling 328 00:16:58,310 --> 00:17:00,030 that what you think of 329 00:17:00,030 --> 00:17:03,160 in sort of tinpot democracies 330 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,790 is happening in what is supposed to be 331 00:17:06,790 --> 00:17:09,720 the exemplar of democracy. 332 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,670 When we had the first pandemic in a century, 333 00:17:11,670 --> 00:17:13,680 he was the guy running America. 334 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,770 And I think it'd be fair to say that his leadership 335 00:17:16,770 --> 00:17:20,830 was not always as committed to the best sciences as you have been. 336 00:17:20,830 --> 00:17:24,230 The US performance, which the executive branch has to 337 00:17:24,230 --> 00:17:28,150 take responsibility for, was quite disappointing. 338 00:17:28,150 --> 00:17:29,950 Now, the US did a few things right, 339 00:17:29,950 --> 00:17:33,200 including funding a lot of the vaccine work. 340 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,680 You know, the US government funded the most. 341 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,670 Our Foundation also funded a lot, 342 00:17:37,670 --> 00:17:42,270 but other than that, the US did not set a good example. 343 00:17:43,830 --> 00:17:48,800 In 1995, Bill Gates reached number one on the world's rich list 344 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:53,240 and spent much of the following 20 years occupying the top spot. 345 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,150 Wealth is relative. 346 00:17:55,150 --> 00:17:57,040 What do you consider to be rich? 347 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,070 I think if there's one person in the world I want to ask that, it's you. 348 00:18:00,070 --> 00:18:03,640 Well, certainly not having to worry 349 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,830 about can I pay my kid's tuition? 350 00:18:06,830 --> 00:18:11,070 Can I, you know, afford a nice trip? 351 00:18:11,070 --> 00:18:13,230 You know, that is an incredible luxury. 352 00:18:13,230 --> 00:18:16,310 So I guess if you have enough 353 00:18:16,310 --> 00:18:18,870 for your family's consumption 354 00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:21,150 at quite a comfortable level, 355 00:18:21,150 --> 00:18:24,710 you know, that's rare in the world, 356 00:18:24,710 --> 00:18:27,590 and you ought to think of that as a huge privilege. 357 00:18:27,590 --> 00:18:30,030 When I told people I was interviewing Bill Gates, 358 00:18:30,030 --> 00:18:33,160 I was amazed by the question that they all seemed 359 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:34,680 collectively to want me to ask you, 360 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:36,880 and I'm going to ask you - it's a nice question. 361 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,000 The question is, are you frugal? 362 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,790 Um, you know, I don't have a gigantic closet. 363 00:18:44,790 --> 00:18:47,830 I don't, you know, wear jewellery. 364 00:18:47,830 --> 00:18:50,990 You make me feel very self-conscious. 365 00:18:50,990 --> 00:18:52,550 But most of this is fake. 366 00:18:52,550 --> 00:18:54,120 Like when I'm unwrapping a present, 367 00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:56,730 I don't take the wrapping and, you know, 368 00:18:56,730 --> 00:18:58,720 fold it up and use it again. 369 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:03,640 You know, if I use a paper bag, my grandmother never threw away 370 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,520 a paper bag in her life or any string on a package. 371 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,960 So, by her standards, I'm crazy. 372 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,320 I just take the bag, and I put it in the garbage. 373 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,600 In 1994, you were asked by The New Yorker 374 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,600 if you worried that wealth would corrupt you. 375 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,520 And you said something very interesting. 376 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,080 You said, "Absolutely. Hey, being in the spot..." 377 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,070 This is me doing my Bill Gates impression. 378 00:19:23,070 --> 00:19:26,830 You said "Absolutely. Hey, being in the spotlight is a corrupting thing. 379 00:19:26,830 --> 00:19:28,950 "Being successful is a corrupting thing. 380 00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:31,330 "Having lots of money is a corrupting thing. 381 00:19:31,330 --> 00:19:34,720 "These are very dangerous things to be guarded against carefully, 382 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,480 "and I think that's very, very hard to do." 383 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,130 Have you been corrupted? 384 00:19:39,130 --> 00:19:44,230 In the sense that if my 30-year-old self saw that, 385 00:19:44,230 --> 00:19:46,510 you know, I take vacations, 386 00:19:46,510 --> 00:19:52,390 erm, I, uh, go to the Olympics... Tsk, tsk. 387 00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:54,190 You know.. That's very irresponsible of you. 388 00:19:54,190 --> 00:19:57,670 A plane that I travel in, I think the 30-year-old would think, 389 00:19:57,670 --> 00:20:00,390 "Wow, you really have gone soft." You sold out. 390 00:20:00,390 --> 00:20:06,670 "You take too much time off and you're allowing yourself, 391 00:20:06,670 --> 00:20:08,640 "as part of your travelling all over the world, 392 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,680 "to do it in a simple way." 393 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,880 Erm, you know, I try to keep my intellectual integrity of, 394 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,760 "OK, do I really understand stuff?" 395 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,830 For example, is the money and the team we've built 396 00:20:19,830 --> 00:20:24,600 to go after these diseases, are they the best they possibly can be? 397 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,470 So I still think I'm pretty demanding 398 00:20:27,470 --> 00:20:30,670 and really try to understand in a deep way. 399 00:20:30,670 --> 00:20:33,000 Do you feel guilty about being rich? 400 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:39,080 As long as I take the money and make sure it goes back to society 401 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:44,000 in a highly impactful way, like eradicating polio, 402 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,120 eventually eradicating malaria, 403 00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:47,720 saving children's lives, 404 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,830 figuring out malnutrition to get rid of most of that. 405 00:20:50,830 --> 00:20:52,230 You know, then I will feel like, 406 00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:55,310 "OK, I had a responsibility to spend this money well." 407 00:20:55,310 --> 00:20:57,030 But that sounds to me like what you're saying, 408 00:20:57,030 --> 00:20:59,850 you partly give so much money away 409 00:20:59,850 --> 00:21:02,080 because you do want to not feel guilty, 410 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,430 because if you didn't give it away, you would feel guilty. 411 00:21:04,430 --> 00:21:07,560 Oh, certainly if I spent it on myself, 412 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,350 I should feel guilty, and I would. 413 00:21:10,350 --> 00:21:13,600 I mean, what am I going to have 1,000 people fanning me, 414 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,270 you know, as I walk down the street? 415 00:21:15,270 --> 00:21:17,750 Wow. Yeah, that would not be very.... 416 00:21:17,750 --> 00:21:21,070 Or the world's greatest cheeseburger, which, I mean... 417 00:21:21,070 --> 00:21:22,830 I eat the world's greatest cheeseburger, 418 00:21:22,830 --> 00:21:24,790 money can't buy you a better cheeseburger. 419 00:21:24,790 --> 00:21:26,270 I want to talk to you about this. 420 00:21:26,270 --> 00:21:28,390 What would go in the world's greatest cheeseburger? 421 00:21:28,390 --> 00:21:31,350 Just, you know...a McDonald's burger. 422 00:21:31,350 --> 00:21:33,630 I don't think if you stuck gold inside, 423 00:21:33,630 --> 00:21:35,230 it would taste better. 424 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,600 Passing up the opportunity to eat gold-plated food 425 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,510 has allowed Bill Gates to pledge $7 billion 426 00:21:43,510 --> 00:21:45,440 to support African institutions 427 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:50,120 fight hunger, disease, gender inequality, and poverty. 428 00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:52,310 And being in Kenya allows him to assess 429 00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:56,080 whether his money is being put to good use. 430 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,070 So the Kathonzweni Health Centre, why this place? 431 00:21:59,070 --> 00:22:02,790 Most health care in Africa is done at a place like this. 432 00:22:02,790 --> 00:22:06,670 This is where the vaccinations and all the advice... 433 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,890 Why does it matter to you to actually be here? 434 00:22:09,890 --> 00:22:12,550 Cos, you know, you could just look at this stuff on Zoom, 435 00:22:12,550 --> 00:22:14,190 not a Zoom, Microsoft Teams. 436 00:22:14,190 --> 00:22:15,550 Why is that not how you operate? 437 00:22:15,550 --> 00:22:17,950 Why do you want to actually be here and feel it? 438 00:22:17,950 --> 00:22:21,310 I don't think you can understand this remotely. 439 00:22:22,470 --> 00:22:26,190 You know, we...our Foundation is very involved 440 00:22:26,190 --> 00:22:28,750 in improving these health care systems, 441 00:22:28,750 --> 00:22:31,440 and it, you know, makes a huge difference in 442 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,870 the number of children that die, the number of children 443 00:22:33,870 --> 00:22:38,240 who grow up with the full physical development. 444 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,870 You know, when we first got going, in Africa, 445 00:22:41,870 --> 00:22:45,070 over 20% of kids would die before the age of five. 446 00:22:45,070 --> 00:22:46,920 Worldwide, it was about 10%. 447 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,750 That's in the year 2000. 448 00:22:48,750 --> 00:22:50,630 That's been cut in half. 449 00:22:50,630 --> 00:22:53,390 So, you know, the world level's about 5% 450 00:22:53,390 --> 00:22:56,230 and the African level's about 10%. 451 00:22:56,230 --> 00:22:58,390 And you want to half it again? Yep. 452 00:22:58,390 --> 00:23:01,960 And I've got this notion that Bill Gates doesn't 453 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,870 leave a place like this without an action plan for what comes next. 454 00:23:04,870 --> 00:23:06,470 So what does come next? 455 00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:11,710 Well, I get to see the President and talk about how they can... Ruto. 456 00:23:11,710 --> 00:23:14,310 Yeah. Who's newly elected and talk about, OK, 457 00:23:14,310 --> 00:23:19,030 where are they doing a good job, you know, where are they falling short? 458 00:23:19,030 --> 00:23:24,350 You know, and fortunately, the Foundation is able to collaborate 459 00:23:24,350 --> 00:23:27,190 with a lot of the leaders and, you know, let them know 460 00:23:27,190 --> 00:23:29,310 what we've learned from other countries 461 00:23:29,310 --> 00:23:32,310 and where they can improve their health care system. 462 00:23:32,310 --> 00:23:35,270 So the power's pretty reliable here? Yes. 463 00:23:35,270 --> 00:23:37,150 How much are you giving away now? 464 00:23:37,150 --> 00:23:38,710 Oh, about 30 billion. 465 00:23:38,710 --> 00:23:40,390 About 30 billion a year. 466 00:23:40,390 --> 00:23:42,150 HE LAUGHS About 30 billion. 467 00:23:42,150 --> 00:23:44,790 Money buys you power. It's given you extraordinary power. 468 00:23:44,790 --> 00:23:47,320 A lot of people would say that the nature of the power 469 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,480 it's given you, which you now use philanthropically, 470 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,800 is undemocratic, because nobody voted for you. 471 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:54,560 What do you say to that charge? 472 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,640 I think spending money on malaria, 473 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,680 reducing malaria deaths is a good thing. 474 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,270 So when we did our first big grant, 475 00:24:00,270 --> 00:24:02,310 we became the biggest malaria funders, 476 00:24:02,310 --> 00:24:07,110 or diarrhoea, or pneumonia or sickle cell or HIV. 477 00:24:07,110 --> 00:24:09,670 You know, other than a few categories, 478 00:24:09,670 --> 00:24:11,910 where the US government spends more than we do, 479 00:24:11,910 --> 00:24:15,390 we're the largest funder on every single one of those things. 480 00:24:15,390 --> 00:24:18,790 So, yes, somebody can disagree with the choices I've made. 481 00:24:18,790 --> 00:24:21,790 You know, democratic processes don't 482 00:24:21,790 --> 00:24:24,830 always let you 483 00:24:24,830 --> 00:24:26,640 do the most innovative work. 484 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,630 So if you want to do risk, 485 00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:32,000 like curing sickle cell or curing HIV, 486 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:33,720 governments are too conservative. 487 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:38,330 So I do think there's some projects that philanthropy is good 488 00:24:38,330 --> 00:24:41,440 at doing better than governments. 489 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,880 Well, let me channel some of your critics. 490 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,920 They would say in that very impressive answer from Bill Gates, 491 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:49,920 he's given a huge amount of money to polio. 492 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,050 He's given a huge amount of money to malaria. 493 00:24:52,050 --> 00:24:55,400 But why should Bill Gates decide where that money goes? 494 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,320 Who made you God? 495 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,200 I'm not God. I mean, as a percentage of the world economy, you know, 496 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,160 I'm kind of rounding there, 497 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,250 but, yes, I decided that the death of children, 498 00:25:06,250 --> 00:25:10,070 when I read that diarrhoea was killing a half million children 499 00:25:10,070 --> 00:25:12,230 and that the vaccine to stop those deaths 500 00:25:12,230 --> 00:25:15,510 was being given to the rich kids, but not to the poor kids, 501 00:25:15,510 --> 00:25:20,200 I said, "Wow, now I know the area of inequity 502 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,750 "most of my money will go on." 503 00:25:22,750 --> 00:25:24,990 I'm pleased to see you say you're not God, 504 00:25:24,990 --> 00:25:26,840 but what do you make of this criticism that 505 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,040 some philanthropists, that Bill Gates, 506 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,280 fancies themselves as a white saviour? 507 00:25:34,010 --> 00:25:36,440 What does that mean? 508 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,560 All of us should work together to save children's lives. 509 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:40,640 Erm... 510 00:25:43,030 --> 00:25:44,390 So... 511 00:25:44,390 --> 00:25:47,910 You know, I'm not a religious saviour. 512 00:25:47,910 --> 00:25:50,510 My thing is just, you know, health, staying alive. 513 00:25:50,510 --> 00:25:52,870 I think it's admirable that you do interviews where you 514 00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:54,590 deal with some of that criticism head on. 515 00:25:54,590 --> 00:25:56,910 There have been controversies about your philanthropy, 516 00:25:56,910 --> 00:25:58,790 which have achieved extraordinary things. 517 00:25:58,790 --> 00:26:01,830 I want to address one of them head on so that we can move on. 518 00:26:01,830 --> 00:26:04,350 One of the many people that you've met through philanthropy 519 00:26:04,350 --> 00:26:06,310 is Jeffrey Epstein, and you've said many times 520 00:26:06,310 --> 00:26:07,670 that you regret meeting him. 521 00:26:07,670 --> 00:26:10,070 What I really want to know is why. 522 00:26:12,150 --> 00:26:16,840 Well, anything that gave, you know, as people, including myself, 523 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,920 learn more about his behaviour, 524 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,830 anything that gave him credibility, you know, 525 00:26:21,830 --> 00:26:23,430 is kind of shameful. 526 00:26:23,430 --> 00:26:29,630 Erm, he spent a lot of time with a lot of rich people who he, you know, 527 00:26:29,630 --> 00:26:32,680 said to me he would 528 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,360 get them to give lots of money to global health. 529 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:40,570 Erm, so I chose to have several dinners with him 530 00:26:40,570 --> 00:26:43,280 along those lines, 531 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,280 but, you know, nothing actually came of it. 532 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,210 I eventually broke off the relationship, 533 00:26:48,210 --> 00:26:53,110 but in retrospect, I would have been much smarter never to 534 00:26:53,110 --> 00:26:54,590 even talk to him at all. 535 00:26:54,590 --> 00:26:56,040 What was he like? 536 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:57,920 You know, I've only met him a few times, 537 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,080 so it's not like I'm some expert. 538 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,840 There are people who actually knew him. 539 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:04,560 Erm... 540 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,990 Do you worry that any connection with him 541 00:27:06,990 --> 00:27:09,480 among the thousands of relationships that you've nurtured 542 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,710 through your philanthropy, can overshadow the good work you do? 543 00:27:12,710 --> 00:27:14,040 Well, it's tough. 544 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,350 Everyone you meet, you know, and you say, "OK, I'll go to dinner." 545 00:27:17,350 --> 00:27:18,790 How careful should you be? 546 00:27:18,790 --> 00:27:23,760 I'm certainly more careful now than back when I did that. 547 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,550 That's a long time ago. 548 00:27:25,550 --> 00:27:28,670 So you've changed your behaviour and who you meet 549 00:27:28,670 --> 00:27:30,040 after that experience? 550 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,680 I'll do a little more due diligence. I may make a mistake again. 551 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,670 I mean, you know, I'm out in the world, 552 00:27:34,670 --> 00:27:37,160 and I'm not trying to be a recluse. 553 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,440 You know, I've met with people from Russia and people from China 554 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,110 who it may turn out later, or even from America, OK, 555 00:27:44,110 --> 00:27:47,110 but, you know, it might be more likely that 556 00:27:47,110 --> 00:27:51,470 some of the wealthy people I meet from those countries will later be, 557 00:27:51,470 --> 00:27:53,910 you know, accused of some bad behaviour. 558 00:27:56,950 --> 00:27:59,310 Not content with improving public health, 559 00:27:59,310 --> 00:28:04,190 Bill Gates feels his fortune can help to solve climate change, too. 560 00:28:04,190 --> 00:28:07,110 He's been investing heavily in green technologies 561 00:28:07,110 --> 00:28:10,110 and using his influence to encourage nations 562 00:28:10,110 --> 00:28:12,570 to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. 563 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,640 What's your central message to government 564 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,520 about what they need to do to accelerate the path 565 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,400 to what some people call net zero? 566 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,490 Well, what the rich countries owe to the entire world 567 00:28:24,490 --> 00:28:27,520 is that they need to get their emissions down to zero 568 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,080 as fast as they can. 569 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,970 But that's not enough, because they, you know, 570 00:28:31,970 --> 00:28:34,520 they have so many... much in the way of resources. 571 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,610 They also need to invent new approaches, 572 00:28:38,610 --> 00:28:43,600 so that the cost of being green, the cost of not having emissions 573 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,150 in all areas gets down to be zero. 574 00:28:47,150 --> 00:28:50,610 So a new way of making cement or steel, you know, 575 00:28:50,610 --> 00:28:53,920 electric passenger cars, that's all on the rich countries. 576 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:55,410 And they've got to solve it, 577 00:28:55,410 --> 00:28:58,280 so they can turn to the middle income countries and say, 578 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,760 "OK, you know..." India being a good example. 579 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,550 "Here's how you make steel. Here's how you make cement." 580 00:29:04,550 --> 00:29:06,520 For the low income countries, 581 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,710 as you get rich, you're much more resilient 582 00:29:08,710 --> 00:29:10,190 against climate disasters. 583 00:29:10,190 --> 00:29:13,910 And so improving that those economies through health, 584 00:29:13,910 --> 00:29:17,550 education, agriculture 585 00:29:17,550 --> 00:29:20,830 is how...what we owe to the low income countries. 586 00:29:20,830 --> 00:29:23,910 You've written about and you've spoken at length about 587 00:29:23,910 --> 00:29:26,790 how climate change is a moral issue as well as a political one. 588 00:29:26,790 --> 00:29:30,990 Do rich countries owe reparations to poor countries 589 00:29:30,990 --> 00:29:33,590 for historic climate change? 590 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,640 Well, the rich countries have done the bulk of emissions, 591 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:46,610 and the countries near the equator are suffering the most. 592 00:29:46,610 --> 00:29:50,810 And so, yes, the rich countries should be more generous. 593 00:29:50,810 --> 00:29:53,850 You actually mentioned your use of a private jet. 594 00:29:53,850 --> 00:29:55,150 Let me put it to you directly, 595 00:29:55,150 --> 00:29:57,990 what do you say to the charge that if you are a 596 00:29:57,990 --> 00:29:59,590 climate change campaigner, 597 00:29:59,590 --> 00:30:02,430 but you also travel around the world on a private jet, 598 00:30:02,430 --> 00:30:03,910 you're a hypocrite. 599 00:30:03,910 --> 00:30:05,310 Well, I... 600 00:30:05,310 --> 00:30:10,800 ..I by the gold standard of funding, Climeworks, to do direct 601 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:18,230 air capture that far exceeds my family's carbon footprint. 602 00:30:18,230 --> 00:30:22,510 And I spend billions of dollars on climate innovation. 603 00:30:22,510 --> 00:30:27,390 So, you know, should I stay at home and not come to Kenya 604 00:30:27,390 --> 00:30:30,390 and learn about farming and malaria? 605 00:30:30,390 --> 00:30:35,680 Anyway, I mean, I'm comfortable with the idea that 606 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:40,760 not only am I not part of the problem by paying for the offsets, 607 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,490 but also through the billions that my breakthrough energy group 608 00:30:45,490 --> 00:30:48,270 is spending, that I'm part of the solution. 609 00:30:48,270 --> 00:30:51,280 For decades now, a lot of people have seen you 610 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,790 as the face of American capitalism. 611 00:30:53,790 --> 00:30:59,750 And there are some critics who say that capitalism in its very nature, 612 00:30:59,750 --> 00:31:01,870 no pun intended, depends on inequality 613 00:31:01,870 --> 00:31:04,000 and the destruction of the planet. 614 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,350 Is that fair? 615 00:31:05,350 --> 00:31:10,550 It certainly...as you incent people to invent things, 616 00:31:10,550 --> 00:31:13,200 you'll give them an opportunity... 617 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,920 ..to make money from those things. 618 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:21,530 So, societies that have tried to get rid of that, like North Korea 619 00:31:21,530 --> 00:31:24,520 or, you know, during the Cultural Revolution in China, 620 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,600 it's an experiment that's been run. 621 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:31,800 And if people prefer to be in that situation, you know, great. 622 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,030 So is capitalism the worst form of arranging our societies, 623 00:31:35,030 --> 00:31:36,960 except for all the others that have been tried? 624 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,170 Basically, I mean, yes, we could tax the rich more. 625 00:31:40,170 --> 00:31:44,750 Yes, more ought to go into climate mitigation 626 00:31:44,750 --> 00:31:46,690 and climate adaptation. 627 00:31:46,690 --> 00:31:48,750 But the idea that, you know, 628 00:31:48,750 --> 00:31:51,470 "Oh, things were better 200 years ago", 629 00:31:51,470 --> 00:31:55,080 you know, where 30% of kids died before the age of five, 630 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:56,590 you know, I don't buy that. 631 00:31:56,590 --> 00:31:59,570 Just saying that, "Oh, we're going to give up capitalism." 632 00:31:59,570 --> 00:32:01,040 What are they saying? 633 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,280 You know, and do they really want to go backwards? 634 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,880 I think we can use a form of capitalism 635 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,950 and continue to get its benefits while solving climate change. 636 00:32:11,950 --> 00:32:16,280 As well as his work as a tech entrepreneur and philanthropist, 637 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,120 Bill Gates has become famous for his eerie ability 638 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,200 to predict the future, 639 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,920 both on his pet subjects of tech... 640 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,870 There'll be digital keys and digital money and digital credit cards, 641 00:32:29,870 --> 00:32:32,790 so almost everything that you have in your wallet today 642 00:32:32,790 --> 00:32:36,160 will be accessible on this little device. 643 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,150 ..and global health... 644 00:32:38,150 --> 00:32:41,520 If anything kills over 10 million people 645 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,550 in the next few decades, 646 00:32:43,550 --> 00:32:48,150 it's most likely to be a highly infectious virus rather than a war. 647 00:32:49,150 --> 00:32:52,520 ..inspiring reverence for his foresight 648 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,830 as well as an overwhelming amount of suspicion. 649 00:32:57,990 --> 00:33:01,590 Your warnings about the pandemic were eerily prescient. 650 00:33:01,590 --> 00:33:05,190 What is the big future threat facing humanity 651 00:33:05,190 --> 00:33:08,280 that we're not thinking about enough but should? 652 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,240 Well, fortunately, we're starting to think enough about climate change, 653 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:17,630 and so I'd probably put bioterror, which is a really awful... 654 00:33:17,630 --> 00:33:20,550 Bioterror and pandemics are sort of the same. 655 00:33:20,550 --> 00:33:22,870 Bioterror is a little harder to defend against, 656 00:33:22,870 --> 00:33:25,990 because whoever's trying to do it 657 00:33:25,990 --> 00:33:29,270 is consciously understand your defence system 658 00:33:29,270 --> 00:33:31,510 so they can be trying to design around them. 659 00:33:31,510 --> 00:33:35,990 But everything you do for pandemics is extremely useful 660 00:33:35,990 --> 00:33:38,990 for bio-terrorism, and we're not as activated 661 00:33:38,990 --> 00:33:42,280 on being ready for that as I think we should be. 662 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,510 Everything we're talking about involves human reason 663 00:33:44,510 --> 00:33:45,950 and rationality, 664 00:33:45,950 --> 00:33:48,110 and yet we started off with you mentioning briefly 665 00:33:48,110 --> 00:33:49,270 conspiracy theories. 666 00:33:49,270 --> 00:33:52,310 And I'm struck in researching this interview by 667 00:33:52,310 --> 00:33:53,470 a very profound irony, 668 00:33:53,470 --> 00:33:56,240 which is that you want to apply rationality and reason 669 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,830 to as much of human affairs as you can, 670 00:33:58,830 --> 00:34:02,030 and yet you might be the subject of more irrational 671 00:34:02,030 --> 00:34:04,720 conspiracy theories than anybody alive today. 672 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,270 Why do you think that is? 673 00:34:06,270 --> 00:34:08,070 I did not expect that. 674 00:34:08,070 --> 00:34:11,910 But in a during the pandemic, there were, you know, 675 00:34:11,910 --> 00:34:14,760 tens of millions of messages about, 676 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,750 that I intentionally caused it or I'm tracking people, 677 00:34:18,750 --> 00:34:21,480 which it's true I'm involved with vaccines, 678 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,990 but I'm involved with vaccines to save lives. 679 00:34:23,990 --> 00:34:26,630 You know, I guess people are looking for 680 00:34:26,630 --> 00:34:28,440 the bogeyman behind the curtain. 681 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,040 The oversimplistic explanation that its malevolence 682 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,830 is a lot easier to understand than biology. 683 00:34:34,830 --> 00:34:37,470 But why are you an easy target? What is it about you? 684 00:34:37,470 --> 00:34:44,230 I think in this case, because of my work on vaccines and saying, 685 00:34:44,230 --> 00:34:48,590 "OK, you know, is he making money off of vaccines?", 686 00:34:48,590 --> 00:34:51,310 which, of course, I'm not. I spend billions on vaccines. 687 00:34:51,310 --> 00:34:53,070 You know, do vaccines kill children? 688 00:34:53,070 --> 00:34:56,150 No, vaccines have saved tens of millions of children. 689 00:34:56,150 --> 00:34:59,270 You know, Elon's got more money than I have, 690 00:34:59,270 --> 00:35:01,710 but, you know, on the pandemic, 691 00:35:01,710 --> 00:35:04,350 he wasn't there funding vaccine factories, 692 00:35:04,350 --> 00:35:08,110 nor was he there predicting that it would happen. 693 00:35:08,110 --> 00:35:09,960 And so, you know, some people say, 694 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,470 "Hey, he felt bad, his prediction didn't come true. 695 00:35:12,470 --> 00:35:15,160 "So he, you know, had to start the pandemic. 696 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,230 "Otherwise, he would have lost credibility." 697 00:35:18,230 --> 00:35:20,800 And just on Elon, would you encourage him to join your club 698 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,560 of mega philanthropists, you, Warren Buffett, Jeff Bezos, 699 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,270 people who give away most of their wealth? 700 00:35:25,270 --> 00:35:29,110 Yeah, I think someday he'll be a great philanthropist, obviously, 701 00:35:29,110 --> 00:35:32,560 you know, things like Tesla are having positive impact, 702 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,430 even without being a form of philanthropy. 703 00:35:36,430 --> 00:35:38,070 But at the end of the day, 704 00:35:38,070 --> 00:35:42,110 I don't think he'll, other than going to Mars a few times, 705 00:35:42,110 --> 00:35:44,510 which might cost a little bit, 706 00:35:44,510 --> 00:35:46,560 I don't think he'll want to spend it on himself. 707 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,110 So, yeah, someday I think he will join the rank 708 00:35:50,110 --> 00:35:53,430 of philanthropists using his ingenuity. 709 00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:55,830 He's going to Mars, whether funded by him or others, 710 00:35:55,830 --> 00:35:58,230 is that a good use of money? Uh... 711 00:35:58,230 --> 00:36:00,710 ..not in my view, but, uh... 712 00:36:00,710 --> 00:36:03,350 Cos there's more pressing things to do on Earth? Definitely, 713 00:36:03,350 --> 00:36:05,310 and it's actually quite expensive to go to Mars. 714 00:36:05,310 --> 00:36:06,830 Have you looked into it? 715 00:36:06,830 --> 00:36:08,910 Have you got someone to do a little break down... 716 00:36:08,910 --> 00:36:11,440 You know, you can buy measles vaccines and save lives 717 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:12,750 for $1,000 per life saved, 718 00:36:12,750 --> 00:36:15,270 and so it just kind of grounds you, 719 00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:17,910 as in don't go to... don't go to Mars. 720 00:36:20,030 --> 00:36:23,070 Gates's philanthropy is a joint project with his former wife, 721 00:36:23,070 --> 00:36:24,830 Melinda. 722 00:36:24,830 --> 00:36:29,240 The pair met at Microsoft in 1987, married in 1994... 723 00:36:30,550 --> 00:36:33,310 ..and announced their divorce in 2021, 724 00:36:33,310 --> 00:36:37,000 amid rumours of historic affairs and inappropriate emails 725 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,320 to female members of staff at Microsoft. 726 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:41,830 You got divorced fairly recently. 727 00:36:41,830 --> 00:36:44,880 You said in May you were still grieving over Melinda. 728 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,360 And that really struck me because I've spent a lot of this year 729 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,760 thinking about grief and grieving. 730 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,070 Are you still grieving? 731 00:36:52,070 --> 00:36:54,710 Well, Melinda's an incredible person, 732 00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:59,670 so I'm lucky that I knew her, that we were married. 733 00:36:59,670 --> 00:37:02,230 I'm lucky that she still works at the Foundation. 734 00:37:02,230 --> 00:37:05,230 I'm lucky that we parent our kids, although, 735 00:37:05,230 --> 00:37:09,550 they're old enough not to need quite as much at this point. 736 00:37:09,550 --> 00:37:12,790 Erm, and so, yeah, both, 737 00:37:12,790 --> 00:37:16,120 I think there's some regrets, but, you know, 738 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,110 we're moving forward in a very positive way. 739 00:37:18,110 --> 00:37:19,910 We have this phrase "empty nest syndrome", 740 00:37:19,910 --> 00:37:23,830 it must be very strange when your kids grow up and leave the house. 741 00:37:23,830 --> 00:37:26,150 Do you get lonely? 742 00:37:26,150 --> 00:37:27,950 You know, I prepared myself very well, 743 00:37:27,950 --> 00:37:29,830 thinking, you know, when the kids are gone, 744 00:37:29,830 --> 00:37:31,190 I won't get much time with them. 745 00:37:31,190 --> 00:37:34,480 Partly because of, you know, digital connection, 746 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,110 you know, I can do video conferences with the kids. 747 00:37:38,110 --> 00:37:41,350 You know, my kids are all learning about medicine, 748 00:37:41,350 --> 00:37:44,430 they understand the modern world, so they can tell me about things. 749 00:37:44,430 --> 00:37:46,640 So, because I set my expectation low, 750 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:51,130 I'm always impressed how much time the kids are willing to give me. 751 00:37:51,130 --> 00:37:53,800 What's the most important thing you've learned from your kids? 752 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,210 Well, you have a certain immortality through your kids that, 753 00:37:57,210 --> 00:37:59,200 you know, even things you do 754 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,600 that won't have an impact during your lifetime, 755 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,550 you want them to have a good life. 756 00:38:05,550 --> 00:38:09,640 And so they, you know, they challenge the work I do. 757 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,550 They challenge my thinking. 758 00:38:12,550 --> 00:38:17,390 You know, young people are kind of smart in a different way. 759 00:38:17,390 --> 00:38:18,670 Old people are kind of wise. 760 00:38:18,670 --> 00:38:21,640 And there's some good creative tension there. 761 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,150 I feel I may have unfairly traduced you as hyper rational 762 00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:25,910 because you are something of a romantic, 763 00:38:25,910 --> 00:38:28,910 and some people will be fascinated to know that 764 00:38:28,910 --> 00:38:32,070 on the night before your marriage to Melinda, 765 00:38:32,070 --> 00:38:35,990 you got Willie Nelson to come along and play on a beach in Hawaii. 766 00:38:35,990 --> 00:38:37,760 Are you a romantic? 767 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:39,800 Can you see yourself falling in love again? 768 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:40,800 Sure. 769 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,360 Would you like that? 770 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,480 Yeah, I'm...I'm not a robot. 771 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:46,760 You're not a robot. 772 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:48,720 You're still involved in Microsoft, 773 00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:50,630 but you stepped down from the board in 2020. 774 00:38:50,630 --> 00:38:53,200 Now US publications suggested that the board spoke 775 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,680 to you about inappropriate emails to female members of staff 776 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,810 and that separately, you had an affair some years ago, 777 00:38:57,810 --> 00:38:59,070 which you've acknowledged. 778 00:38:59,070 --> 00:39:00,870 I know you won't want to reopen those issues 779 00:39:00,870 --> 00:39:03,870 or speak about particulars, but you've said sorry about the affair. 780 00:39:03,870 --> 00:39:05,270 Who are you sorry to? 781 00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:07,840 Well, you're going back, you know... 782 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,040 Years. 783 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,670 ..more than 20 years ago. 784 00:39:11,670 --> 00:39:17,280 And so, you know, I don't think it's relevant at this point. 785 00:39:19,550 --> 00:39:20,710 But you said you were sorry. 786 00:39:20,710 --> 00:39:23,280 I'm interested in why and to whom. 787 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,630 Is it about the impact on your family now? 788 00:39:26,950 --> 00:39:28,310 The...you know, I... 789 00:39:29,390 --> 00:39:34,590 That's between me and my family and from a long, long time ago. 790 00:39:34,590 --> 00:39:36,470 OK. Let's turn to the future. 791 00:39:36,470 --> 00:39:39,990 How profoundly do you think artificial intelligence 792 00:39:39,990 --> 00:39:41,710 will transform our species? 793 00:39:41,710 --> 00:39:43,400 You know, pretty dramatically. 794 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,070 Erm, we're at the early stage, 795 00:39:46,070 --> 00:39:51,430 and, you know, nobody's been perfect about predicting these things. 796 00:39:51,430 --> 00:39:53,800 But the fact that it will help us 797 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,230 look into medical and scientific questions 798 00:39:57,230 --> 00:40:00,270 will give us much higher productivity. 799 00:40:01,790 --> 00:40:04,190 You're going to turn 70 in three years, 800 00:40:04,190 --> 00:40:05,830 that's a big milestone for some people. 801 00:40:05,830 --> 00:40:07,950 How do you feel about it, and how do you feel about your 802 00:40:07,950 --> 00:40:11,110 remaining time on Earth and optimising those years? 803 00:40:11,110 --> 00:40:14,200 You know, it's strange to be an old person. 804 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,240 I don't think of myself that way. 805 00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:21,670 You know, I feel young, but, you know, I have limited time. 806 00:40:21,670 --> 00:40:24,230 You know, my life is two thirds done, 807 00:40:24,230 --> 00:40:28,830 and, you know, can I get malaria eradication done? 808 00:40:28,830 --> 00:40:30,270 I think so. 809 00:40:30,270 --> 00:40:33,030 You've described yourself as more intense than other people, 810 00:40:33,030 --> 00:40:35,070 though you said not more intense than Steve Jobs. 811 00:40:35,070 --> 00:40:37,750 You have this remarkable ability to read, 812 00:40:37,750 --> 00:40:39,990 to analyse, retain information. 813 00:40:39,990 --> 00:40:43,280 Greta Thunberg credits her Asperger's as her special power. 814 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:44,600 What's your special power? 815 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,080 You know, I think I'm a student, I'm curious. Erm... 816 00:40:50,150 --> 00:40:53,000 You know, defining whether somebody is on the Asperger's spectrum 817 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,440 is a pretty vague thing, but my ability to concentrate, erm... 818 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,090 ..is very high. 819 00:41:02,090 --> 00:41:05,960 And when I was young, it was weird, weirdly high, you know, 820 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:11,270 to memorise things and, you know, try out my thinking, 821 00:41:11,270 --> 00:41:15,600 you know, which made science and maths super interesting. 822 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,960 And then I discovered software and was able to throw 823 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,070 all my energy into that. 824 00:41:20,070 --> 00:41:22,230 So I'm a good student, I think. 825 00:41:22,230 --> 00:41:25,910 Do you have an unusual ability to focus on the task in hand? 826 00:41:25,910 --> 00:41:27,510 Yes. 827 00:41:27,510 --> 00:41:29,190 I've got some quickfire questions for you. 828 00:41:29,190 --> 00:41:31,350 Maximum ten words, minimum one. OK? 829 00:41:31,350 --> 00:41:33,030 These are nice. All right. You ready? 830 00:41:33,030 --> 00:41:34,670 I think you're going to enjoy these. 831 00:41:34,670 --> 00:41:37,240 What time do you wake up in the morning? 832 00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:39,430 Just before my first meeting. 833 00:41:39,430 --> 00:41:44,000 Like my first meeting's at 8:00, I get up at 7:45. 834 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,000 I like to...I stay up late. 835 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,240 I'm a night person. That's not ten words. 836 00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:50,790 Hang on a second. Hang on a second. 837 00:41:50,790 --> 00:41:53,390 If you've got a meeting at 8:00, surely takes more than 15 minutes 838 00:41:53,390 --> 00:41:54,710 to get from bed to the meeting? 839 00:41:54,710 --> 00:41:56,430 If it's a virtual meeting, 840 00:41:56,430 --> 00:41:59,710 I literally get up 15 minutes before the virtual meeting. 841 00:41:59,710 --> 00:42:02,270 You don't want to have a little coffee, shower, shave? 842 00:42:02,270 --> 00:42:05,360 Hey, I can get a lot done in 15 minutes. 843 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,680 What social media platform are you most active on? 844 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,050 None. 845 00:42:09,050 --> 00:42:11,680 I mean, I publish things, 846 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,040 but I don't spend much time browsing. 847 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,200 Your greatest hero, living or dead? 848 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,680 You know, my dad, Warren Buffett. 849 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,040 Who's a person from history you'd most like to meet? 850 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:26,860 Um... 851 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:29,870 ..maybe Da Vinci. 852 00:42:29,870 --> 00:42:31,230 Probably Da Vinci. 853 00:42:31,230 --> 00:42:32,490 Do you believe in God? 854 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:35,870 Somewhat. 855 00:42:35,870 --> 00:42:37,410 What do you fear most? 856 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:55,800 Well, that's hard to say. 857 00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,960 You know, not being a good friend, I guess. 858 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,170 If you had your time again, what would you do differently? 859 00:43:04,170 --> 00:43:06,520 I don't think I would change much. 860 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,000 I'd be afraid it wouldn't come out as well as it did this time. 861 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,760 So, you know, trying to second guess myself... 862 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:17,320 You know, obviously I've mellowed over time and I've seen, you know... 863 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:23,600 ..decisions I made that didn't work out, but I wouldn't... 864 00:43:24,590 --> 00:43:29,030 ..I wouldn't want to try again because it's been an amazing life. 865 00:43:29,030 --> 00:43:32,030 Bill Gates. Thank you. A real pleasure to talk to you. 866 00:43:32,030 --> 00:43:33,750 Yeah, no. Thank you so much.