1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,800 It's 1996 - the age of savvy tech, 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,360 supersonic stars and sporting icons. 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:10,420 FANS SING 4 00:00:10,420 --> 00:00:14,260 TV and film were in overdrive, with new sci-fi worlds 5 00:00:14,260 --> 00:00:16,200 fuelling our imaginations. 6 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,700 The world was riding a science high. 7 00:00:18,700 --> 00:00:22,300 Boundaries were being pushed and new ideas tested. 8 00:00:22,300 --> 00:00:24,640 And in a sleepy village near Edinburgh, 9 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,260 an excited scientific team were herding the paparazzi 10 00:00:28,260 --> 00:00:30,240 into their very own sheep pen. 11 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,300 A huge sort of press migration occurred 12 00:00:33,300 --> 00:00:36,000 to this little agricultural station. 13 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,200 It was like a big football game. Lots of press attention. 14 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:40,400 It was chaos. 15 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,520 This is the story of how a small group of scientists 16 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:46,520 changed the course of history. 17 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,400 They created the world's most famous sheep. 18 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,120 A breakthrough so huge it captured the attention of world leaders. 19 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,600 It was the first really new piece of science 20 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:00,920 in the field of biotechnology that broke 21 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,200 in the era of the Internet. 22 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:05,040 The idea of going viral, 23 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,960 I mean, that term wasn't yet around, but that's what happened. 24 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:09,840 Dolly the sheep. Dolly the sheep. 25 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,120 Dolly the sheep. The world's first clone. 26 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:13,360 SHEEP BAAS 27 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,280 Dolly was a creation no-one saw coming 28 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,600 and the world doubted was even possible. 29 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:26,280 The simple thing is, 30 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,280 when I was told that they had cloned a sheep, 31 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,080 I just didn't believe it. 32 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,680 The background was that cloning was impossible. 33 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,040 It was a dogma. You couldn't do it. 34 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,920 My own history of being a student with Sir John Gurdon 35 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:44,520 told me that his wonderful Nobel Prize-winning experiments 36 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,520 with frogs had shown him that if he took adult cells, 37 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,640 you could never get a frog. 38 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,080 So I thought, well, if we take adult sheep cells, 39 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,520 we're never going to get an adult sheep. 40 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,280 One thing to be clear about is a lot of people talk about Dolly 41 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,640 as if she was the first cloned animal. 42 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:06,560 She wasn't. She was the first animal cloned from an adult cell. 43 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,000 She proved that you could take an adult cell 44 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,520 that's made all the decisions in its lifetime 45 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,400 and wind it all the way back and start development again. 46 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,800 And that proved that in mammals this was possible 47 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:24,720 and the choices and the fates of adult cells are not irreversible. 48 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,600 Cloning from an adult cell was meant to be impossible. 49 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,280 Once a cell had its role, it was permanent. 50 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,680 The chance of Dolly ever existing was microscopic, 51 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,480 but fate was on Roslin's side. 52 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:43,600 I think over 200 embryos were transferred to surrogate mothers 53 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,160 and only one of those embryos developed. 54 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:47,760 We got one pregnancy. 55 00:02:48,920 --> 00:02:52,520 The birth of Dolly the sheep ignited a fascination in me. 56 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,440 When for 30 years it's like, 57 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,120 well, we can do it in frogs, we can't do it in mammals, 58 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,520 that really upends a lot of thinking. 59 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,440 The textbooks literally were being rewritten about what was possible. 60 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,840 The Roslin Institute was a government research centre 61 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,800 with a strong focus on agricultural science. 62 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,200 In the early 1990s, it found itself at the mercy 63 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,560 of brutal financial cuts. 64 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,760 British scientists have called on Mrs Thatcher to put an end 65 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,520 to Britain's brain drain, saying they're concerned 66 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,320 that scientific research is being starved of funds. 67 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,280 I knew about Roslin because I'd worked for The Scotsman, 68 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,960 but was Roslin Institute known worldwide? No, it wasn't. 69 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:35,360 It was deeply respected within the sphere of agricultural research, 70 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,680 but as a leading intellectual centre in the world? No, it wasn't there. 71 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,200 It was a traditional research institute. 72 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,440 A lot of people had been there for years and years. 73 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,680 It was a very different environment than I'd been used to. 74 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:51,600 I think working for the civil service, 75 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,000 things were a little bit more kind of Heath Robinson 76 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,600 in the approach to some of the things in the laboratory. 77 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,600 Their attitude towards, you know, getting things done. 78 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,520 Americans were very go, go, go, you know? We did 12 or 14-hour shifts, 79 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,520 whereas, working at the Institute, you'd clock in 80 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:08,880 and then it would be tea break time. 81 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,680 And even if you had embryos out on the desk or out in the hood, 82 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,280 it would be, like, "Oh, they'll be fine. Just leave them. 83 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,480 "We'll be OK. We can come back to them later." 84 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:20,280 While I was at the Institute, 85 00:04:20,280 --> 00:04:22,280 we could see this new building going up. 86 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:25,360 It was literally like Legoland and there was a bit of a buzz about it 87 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,760 because this was a company called PPL Therapeutics. 88 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,920 In those days, government institutes couldn't start their own spin-offs 89 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,000 in the way they could today, 90 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:40,320 and so PPL essentially started as a vehicle 91 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,360 for commercialising Roslin's work, 92 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,840 and Tracy was our first animal 93 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:49,200 as a company, 94 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,480 but it was done in collaboration with Roslin. 95 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:57,160 PPL were searching for a treatment for conditions like cystic fibrosis, 96 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,280 turning to a branch of science called transgenics. 97 00:05:00,280 --> 00:05:04,360 Tracy was the first sheep to offer a real glimmer of hope. 98 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,000 Her milk had been genetically engineered 99 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,920 to contain a viable amount of a crucial protein 100 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,280 needed by those with the condition. 101 00:05:12,280 --> 00:05:15,080 But the technology was unpredictable, crude 102 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:16,520 and rudimentary. 103 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,840 One of the biggest limitations of the kind of transgenic technology 104 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:23,200 that was used to make Tracy is that you have to have 105 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,160 lots and lots and lots of fertilised eggs 106 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,000 and you have to inject a piece of DNA into every single one, 107 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,600 and you can't control where it's going to go. 108 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,880 It's then that they came to realise 109 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,440 that collaborating with the Institute 110 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,080 and moving into the cloning project 111 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,240 might actually be beneficial to them. 112 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,280 We shared a canteen with the scientists in Roslin 113 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:49,760 and several of our staff used to go there every day 114 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,280 and they'd have scientific conversations over lunch, 115 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:56,840 and it's one of those conversations that led to us learning 116 00:05:56,840 --> 00:05:58,720 about Megan and Morag. 117 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:05,080 In 1996, the Roslin team unveiled twin lambs Megan and Morag - 118 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,760 clones created from embryonic cells. 119 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,520 REPORTER: Most sheep look alike, but these two at this 120 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,080 Edinburgh research institute are more than just alike, 121 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:14,840 they're genetically identical. 122 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,400 The technology used to create the lambs was called nuclear transfer - 123 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,920 a more sophisticated and efficient technique 124 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,280 that takes DNA out from one cell 125 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:28,520 to be replaced with new DNA from a different animal. 126 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,360 It was exactly what PPL were looking for. 127 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,000 They were the first things that I noticed and I thought, 128 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,360 oh, yeah, there are things happening here, 129 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,440 and it really came into my sphere of interest 130 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:41,640 as a place where hot science was going on. 131 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,440 Megan and Morag were the game-changer for us. 132 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,280 We got together and said, 133 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:50,600 "Well, this is really quite important technology. 134 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,280 "How can we get access to it?" 135 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,520 The lambs raised the profile of Roslin, 136 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,600 giving them credibility and opportunity. 137 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,080 I had moved down to PPL Therapeutics. 138 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,680 That was when those who were higher than me, if you like, 139 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:07,360 the Alan Colemans of the world, 140 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:12,000 started talking with Ian Wilmut about a collaborative project. 141 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,280 And we were just having wide-ranging conversations, 142 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,480 "How do we crack this sort of problem?" 143 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,400 Ian Wilmut was a leading figure in the developmental biology world. 144 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,920 His vision and leadership were crucial 145 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,280 in shaping Roslin's experiments. 146 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:32,280 Alongside him was Keith Campbell, an extraordinary scientist 147 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,080 with a talent for thinking outside the box. 148 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,680 As part of that collaborative project, 149 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:42,080 there were a couple of us who were to work alongside 150 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,680 with the staff at the Roslin Institute. 151 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,120 Bill Ritchie was one of the members of the team. 152 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,880 Compared to where I'd worked before, where we used to buy everything in, 153 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,520 including the little microinjection tools, 154 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,760 the little, tiny, fine glass pipettes that we'd use, 155 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,280 Bill used to make his own, and he'd love to leave me 156 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:05,640 in the corner of a different lab making these glass pipettes 157 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:07,360 to do the nuclear transfer with. 158 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:14,240 There was one morning, on the 8th of February, 1996, 159 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,360 where there was a definite frisson of panic. 160 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,040 One of the cell lines had failed. 161 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,520 A disaster which left PPL without cells to use in the next experiment. 162 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,040 Unless this could be resolved, 163 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,520 months of work and a huge amount of money would be lost. 164 00:08:33,680 --> 00:08:36,520 Now, we had a project management committee 165 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,840 where we had three scientists from the Roslin Institute 166 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,760 and three scientists from PPL, 167 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,920 and so, you know, we're discussing, "Well, what can we do?" 168 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,280 "Well, we can take these mammary cells 169 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,640 "from this older animal that had been frozen. 170 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:53,360 "Why don't we try those?" 171 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,360 But there was a catch. 172 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,600 The mammary cells were from a six-year-old sheep. 173 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,160 In order to use these cells to create a new lamb, 174 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,400 they needed to reprogramme them back to a younger cell stage. 175 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:13,840 Nobody had done this before. 176 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,520 I think what had happened was that Ian and Keith 177 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,760 had been talking to the people in PPL and they decided, 178 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,800 "Well, let's see if we can go the whole hog and try this." 179 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,840 It wasn't part of what we wanted to do. 180 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,160 It wasn't part of the design of the experiment. 181 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,920 We had a discussion about what we thought 182 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,280 the prospects of success were. 183 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,720 Most people thought, "This isn't going to work." 184 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,600 I think Keith Campbell thought it might work, but he wasn't sure. 185 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,720 No-one was sure, so I reluctantly said yes. 186 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,280 Keith had been exploring the life cycle of cells 187 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:55,000 and wanted to test an idea where perhaps reprogramming was possible. 188 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,760 It was a hunch, 189 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,920 but, if proved right, would change biology forever. 190 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:02,920 His colleagues, however, were more sceptical. 191 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,720 They never told us they were going to do mammary gland cells 192 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,600 because we wouldn't have given them money if they had have done 193 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,280 because we would have thought it was a crazy idea. 194 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,880 We just thought, "Really? That's never going to work." 195 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,320 We all just rolled our eyes but, hey, we gave it a go. 196 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,920 Karen and Bill started the painstaking process 197 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,760 of assembling the embryos to implant into the donor sheep. 198 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,760 They took the six-year-old mammary cell DNA 199 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,680 and inserted it into an empty egg cell, 200 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:34,160 also called an oocyte. 201 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:38,640 The way it worked in the "cupboard", which was Bill's cloning lab, 202 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,400 that particular day Bill enucleated all the oocytes that we had, 203 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,720 so that means you were taking out the DNA that you didn't want 204 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,520 from the Scottish Blackface donors, and then he would pop these cells 205 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,000 that we didn't think would work back in. 206 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,600 And then what you needed to do was to actually make the cells 207 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,600 schmooze together with the oocytes. 208 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,880 And essentially what you were doing was you were using an electrical 209 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,360 current, and that pretty much mimicked what a sperm would do, 210 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,720 and it would create this electrical current 211 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,320 that would kick-start the embryo to then start dividing. 212 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,720 And so this is why we joke that Bill is Dolly's mum and I'm Dolly's dad, 213 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,920 because I, essentially, did the sperm bit. 214 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,920 So the technology that led to the birth of Dolly, 215 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,280 it's hard to overstate how technically demanding it is. 216 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,640 You've got tiny, tiny embryos, 217 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,760 you're fiddling around with little glass pipettes, taking DNA out, 218 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,680 putting DNA in, and you have to have a lot of goes at it. 219 00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:36,680 You need hundreds of eggs. 220 00:11:36,680 --> 00:11:38,480 It's incredibly difficult. 221 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,280 The lab was a mile away from the farm and the cold weather 222 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,320 would destroy the embryos without the proper equipment. 223 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:50,560 Karen and Bill, however, had an imaginative solution. 224 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,960 One or two of us would ping pong backwards and forwards 225 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:56,920 between the farm down at Dryden. 226 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,960 We'd have to try and keep the embryos warm. 227 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:02,240 Bill used to use his top pocket of his shirt, 228 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,280 which was fine, but I didn't. 229 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,400 I would maybe have a T-shirt on, 230 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,520 so the only way I could think of keeping them warm was 231 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,760 I used to tuck them in the top of my bra strap, 232 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,120 and that turns out to be the ideal way 233 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,360 of keeping them at the right temperature. 234 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,800 When we got the information that one animal was pregnant, 235 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,680 we didn't jump up and down because we felt that, 236 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:31,440 "Well, this isn't going to last", 237 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:32,840 but it did. 238 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:40,200 Dolly entered the world at 4.30pm on the 5th of July, 1996, 239 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,840 in the lambing shed at Dryden Farm. 240 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,520 As she originated from mammary cells, 241 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,080 John Bracken, a research assistant, made an off the cuff remark 242 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,520 that they would have to call the lamb Dolly - 243 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:53,360 a nod to Dolly Parton. 244 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,960 I was at my friend's wedding up in Plockton, 245 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,480 and no mobile phones in those days, or no signal, 246 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,440 and the only way was I'd left the fax number 247 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,360 of the hotel I was staying in. 248 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:12,760 And what she did was she sent a fax to say, "She's been born. 249 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:14,760 "Mother and baby fine. 250 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,880 "She has a white face and furry legs. 251 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:19,880 "Hope you have a good weekend." 252 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:24,560 That code meant that I knew she had a white face and furry legs, 253 00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:28,560 so she was not a Scottish Blackface, which had been the donor oocyte. 254 00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:32,040 I did make a quick dash down to the bar to celebrate 255 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,000 and said something about being a dad, 256 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,760 and of course everybody must have thought I was barking mad. 257 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,760 She'd be delighted to know that that's something that happened 258 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,280 on her wedding day and we had done a world's first. 259 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,720 But reality soon intruded. 260 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,760 They weren't just handling a small scientific finding, 261 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,360 they were about to face the full glare of global media. 262 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,160 The world was still in the dark 263 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,680 about the breakthrough Roslin had created. 264 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:11,520 The team were now sitting on 265 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,360 one of the biggest genetics discoveries ever made. 266 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,760 This question of can you take an adult cell 267 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,120 and wind the clock back to start again, 268 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,280 it wasn't that the Roslin team were the only people looking at this. 269 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,240 People were investigating this in mice, 270 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,960 they were looking at these kinds of questions. 271 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,920 But what you had at Roslin was the perfect storm. 272 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,680 You had the technical expertise, 273 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:39,080 you had the experiments in the form of Megan and Morag, 274 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,560 you had the money to support that research, 275 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,960 and you really had the curiosity to find out, "Can we do this?" 276 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,640 One of the most important factors of the whole story around Dolly 277 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,160 is the fact that it was a huge team effort. 278 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,760 Often we joke about having the right colour socks on 279 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,120 and whether it was a lucky day or not, 280 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,000 and I still think sometimes it was just lucky socks. 281 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,000 And it's the persistence and the perseverance of everybody 282 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,800 that was involved with the whole project. 283 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,280 And there we go, we got Dolly. 284 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,640 Dolly was science's next celebrity, 285 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,880 and those inside Roslin were well aware of her importance. 286 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,760 What had happened the previous year was, 287 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:26,760 with the production of Megan and Morag, 288 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,200 that the Roslin Institute had essentially perfected 289 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,560 the procedures for cloning, 290 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:36,160 and so then, by producing Dolly with the adult cell, 291 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,880 that was, if you like, the big leap. 292 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,280 I think that was what excited me most - 293 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,000 the idea that being a specialised cell didn't mean 294 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:52,360 that your genetic blueprint was fixed for life, if you want. 295 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,360 You could actually reprogramme it. 296 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,800 That was something that no-one had done before, 297 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:03,360 and so I was academically very excited about that. 298 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,680 You also have to remember that every textbook on biology 299 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,600 had to be rewritten, because every textbook on biology says 300 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,440 you go from the embryo to an adult, to a liver cell or a kidney cell, 301 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,360 and you can't go backwards, 302 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,880 and Dolly showed that you can go backwards. 303 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,640 The clock was ticking down to her announcement. 304 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,680 The team had to keep the story of the scientific superstar 305 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:26,600 absolutely secret. 306 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,720 When I got back from Plockton, 307 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,840 I came into work and it was just abuzz 308 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:33,920 with everything that was going on. 309 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,040 Everybody was aware that she'd been born, but it was all top secret. 310 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:40,960 I got to see quite a lot of her 311 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,920 and she got very much used to human beings, 312 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,840 and she would practically perform. 313 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,760 She was like the Naomi Campbell of the sheep world 314 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,240 because she literally would... I don't know, she... 315 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,360 You know, she'd kind of, like, fluff herself up. 316 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,160 She definitely knew how to perform for the crowd. 317 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,000 She was like a little show pony. 318 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,040 We were all instructed to keep quiet 319 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,280 because it might prejudice the publication of a paper, 320 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,520 which would be, you know, a widely acclaimed paper. 321 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,920 Those of us who knew generally kept to that secrecy, 322 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,040 but Keith was not a good secret keeper. 323 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,440 Unfortunately, he couldn't help himself. 324 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,240 He was telling everybody scientifically. 325 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,280 He said, "I've got a big secret." 326 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,160 But he told them. 327 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,760 He told them the cell type that was used. 328 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:37,080 I would never do that, but he did, and the people kept quiet. 329 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,040 It was surprising. 330 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,400 I mean, they didn't always keep completely quiet. 331 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,800 I went to a meeting the month before the paper for Dolly was published, 332 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,360 and I was swimming in a swimming pool somewhere... 333 00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:51,720 Near Mar-a-Lago, in fact. 334 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,520 And a scientist swam up to me and said, 335 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,360 "We know what you've done", with a wink. 336 00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:00,760 And, of course, I laughed. I was a bit embarrassed. 337 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,280 I blushed a bit because, you know, I was a bit... 338 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,000 I was a bit worried. You know, what if these type of people 339 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,440 release it to the press? But no-one did that. 340 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,320 Until the press released it prematurely themselves 341 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:13,960 the next month, yeah. 342 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,000 The team never expected to be in the limelight, 343 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,360 and the imminent announcement of Dolly 344 00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:22,880 meant calling in some additional help. 345 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,200 When Megan and Morag was announced, of course, 346 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,640 there was a lot of media attention. 347 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,280 How did a small institute in Scotland 348 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,640 come to be doing something like this, you know? 349 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,000 It gave us a bit of a fright because we realised we didn't have 350 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,680 the ability to handle the press in those sort of numbers. 351 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:46,120 So we did actually sit down with somebody who asked us questions 352 00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:48,840 so we were ready for them and we knew what we were going to say. 353 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,040 Just a little bit prepared. 354 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,680 I remember looking at the pre-print of the Nature paper 355 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,040 and my first reaction was, "This can't be true." 356 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,400 Then it dawned on me that it was true 357 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,760 because Nature were going to publish it. 358 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:06,280 And at that point I began to think more about how the implications 359 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,120 would be understood, how big the story would be, 360 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:12,000 so I quite quickly flipped from 361 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,640 not being able to believe that this piece of science had happened 362 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,000 to actually get a handle on how big it was, 363 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,400 and my reaction was, yes, this is definitely going to be a big story. 364 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,960 Chris was part of a communications agency called De Facto. 365 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,800 It was their job to make sure the science wasn't misunderstood. 366 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,760 If not, the team could face public backlash. 367 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,000 It was important to prepare material 368 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,360 that would allow people to understand it, 369 00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:45,920 so diagrams, briefing documents, photography, 370 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,000 but this was a very different time. 371 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,600 We had someone come in and spend about an hour 372 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,440 trying to upload this thing through a modem to Reuters. 373 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,920 You know, it was slightly crazy. 374 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:58,400 The difference! 375 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,760 Ian sent us the Nature paper, saying... 376 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,960 In a footnote on the bottom, he wrote, "You should be aware of this. 377 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,880 "There may be some media interest." 378 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,280 Well, Nature, the journal, which is the most prestigious 379 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,680 journal in the UK, if not in the world, 380 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,040 you wanted to have your paper in that journal. 381 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,920 For scientists, it's kind of a dream to be... 382 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,360 To have their research published in Nature. 383 00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:23,400 There will be scientists who go through their entire careers 384 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,960 wishing that they could have a Nature publication, 385 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,000 and so there would be a lot of anxiety around making sure 386 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,560 that nothing happened that put that in jeopardy. 387 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:38,160 Roslin and PPL had their Dolly results accepted by Nature. 388 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:43,600 The big reveal was locked in for Thursday the 27th of February, 1997, 389 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,800 with a press release sent to journalists the week before 390 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,160 under tight embargo. 391 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,600 Any leak risked Roslin's scientific credibility. 392 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,600 The scientific paper was given to some of the newspapers, 393 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,240 the British newspapers, 394 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,640 a good week before the publication date, 395 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,440 and they were told to embargo the paper. 396 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,280 You're giving them a brief, essentially, by giving them 397 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,000 the paper, but they weren't to actually divulge the information 398 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,120 until it was published in the scientific journal. 399 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,280 I was under the simple position that we had to run it 400 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,480 before the release, which was a Wednesday or Thursday, 401 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:26,800 or we were dead. 402 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,280 I knew ahead of it before anybody else. 403 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,600 I hated the idea of knowing something, 404 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,960 and then having to sit and watch 405 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,080 while everybody else gets a nice, easy kind of play on it. 406 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,440 And this is the problem of Sunday newspapers - 407 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,280 you get one shot a week. 408 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,960 And then suddenly Robert McKee broke the press embargo 409 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,880 on the Sunday - The Observer covered it. 410 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,560 It was my wife's birthday, and suddenly I got a phone call saying, 411 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:53,920 "Can we have an opinion on this?", 412 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,840 so I hastily sent my press release off to the BBC 413 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,200 and I had a phone call back saying, 414 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,480 "Can you come to our Edinburgh studio tonight 415 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:02,720 "to appear on Newsnight?" 416 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,920 Is there anything intrinsically wrong with this research, Dr Bruce? 417 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,600 As far as the research is concerned, I think it's a remarkable 418 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,000 development and that in itself doesn't worry me. 419 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,280 It's more the applications that concern me. 420 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,320 No, I mean, I didn't get Nature, so I was under no embargo from them. 421 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,240 I was staying with my cousin in Yorkshire 422 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,600 and I told him about Dolly the night before. 423 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,640 He went out in the morning and came back with a Sunday papers 424 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,760 and said to me as he came through, "It's all over the Sunday papers". 425 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,160 and I thought he was winding me up. HE LAUGHS 426 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,680 But he wasn't. It was in the Sunday papers. 427 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:46,000 I think Ian Wilmut was the first to be informed 428 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,680 that the embargo had been broken. 429 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,680 We had press teams... 430 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,760 Our own press teams in PPL and at Roslin Institute. 431 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,280 We prepared ourselves for the publication, 432 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,400 we had not prepared ourselves for a leak. 433 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,760 I was in my second year at university 434 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,160 when the news about Dolly the sheep broke, 435 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:08,560 and this was really like a rocket in the world of developmental biology. 436 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,440 It's one of the things that inspired me 437 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,800 to go on in the scientific field that I did, 438 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,360 and I remember seeing the cover of Nature 439 00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:17,920 with the picture of Dolly on it and thinking, 440 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,480 this is just absolutely incredible. 441 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,520 It's a really hackneyed thing to say - 442 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,360 the textbooks were being rewritten - but they literally were. 443 00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:27,840 No-one had managed to do this before. 444 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,440 Only a couple of years earlier, 445 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,200 most scientists wouldn't have known where Roslin was, 446 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,560 but this quiet Edinburgh institute 447 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,600 was about to become the centre of the world's media. 448 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,360 Dolly sent shock waves around the world. 449 00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:55,760 The world's first clone has been produced of an adult mammal. 450 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,000 Scientists in Scotland have produced a sheep called Dolly 451 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,440 that was cloned in a laboratory using a cell from another sheep. 452 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,680 The media storm stunned those working closest to her. 453 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,280 Once the story had broken, 454 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,000 I don't think either PPL or the Institute 455 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,640 were really prepared for what was about to hit them. 456 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,280 I think they realised that, from a scientific perspective, 457 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,920 it would be, you know, a huge breakthrough, 458 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,800 but the sort of press frenzy that there was was incredible. 459 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,200 And then the shit hit the fan on the Monday, you know? 460 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,480 The reaction was quite astonishing. 461 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,800 I did not anticipate that at all. 462 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,600 I did not see that coming. 463 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,160 I could see sort of the odd bishop or archbishop expressing, 464 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,520 you know, with furrowed brow, or something like that. 465 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,760 I did not anticipate the global response. 466 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,040 And then Clinton got hold of it. 467 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:51,880 I have asked our distinguished 468 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,320 National Bioethics Advisory Commission 469 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,280 to conduct a thorough review of the legal and ethical issues 470 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,280 raised by this new cloning discovery. 471 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,040 And it just went off like a rocket then. 472 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,960 And, at that point, it bypassed me because we had done it. 473 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:11,480 Nothing else we could say for another week, 474 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,160 so I was a bystander as the story that I thought was quite good 475 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,000 sort of reverberated around the world, to my astonishment. 476 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:23,800 And, of course, they all wanted to see Dolly, 477 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,440 so the one big shed we had, we had to clean all that out quickly 478 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,400 and put Dolly in it. 479 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,880 It turned into a media circus, 480 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,280 with reporters from around the world flocking to her pen. 481 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,520 A US chat show asked about Dolly's availability 482 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,600 and the phones rang nonstop, 483 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,480 even reaching Roslin's cleaning cupboard. 484 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,960 So I found myself first port of call for a lot of the media enquiries, 485 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,360 and my role was to speak to journalists. 486 00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:55,400 It was just a huge, huge task 487 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,000 and we had more than 2,000 calls in a two-week period. 488 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,880 It took the skin off my ear. 489 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,440 I'd been on the phone so much that both of my ears were blistered. 490 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,800 And quite surreal at times. 491 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,760 I'd come back to my desk and there'd be a note there saying 492 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,960 can I please call the Vatican or can I call the White House. 493 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,280 That was normal for several days - to come back and just have 494 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,040 these extraordinary... 495 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,560 Now extraordinary-seeming messages. 496 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,160 Throughout the world, Dollymania had well and truly arrived. 497 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,600 She sparked heated debate 498 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,440 amongst governments and religious leaders alike. 499 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,760 How easy might it be scientifically for someone, somewhere, 500 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,520 to apply your method to the cloning of humans? 501 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,960 It would be my belief that if you really wanted to do it, 502 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,520 it could be done. 503 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,920 AL GORE: Ever since scientists in Scotland 504 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,160 successfully cloned an adult sheep, the President and those of us 505 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,760 who work with him, along with the rest of the nation, 506 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,280 have grappled with the meaning and significance of the discovery. 507 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,280 There were also personal aspects that came through as well, 508 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,760 because Ian Wilmut had a secretary at the time called Jackie, 509 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,520 and I do remember being down in the office with her 510 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,280 and her taking phone calls from people who would say, 511 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,840 "My child is ill. Can you do anything to help?" 512 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,520 We also had people saying, "Oh..., you know, 513 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,920 "..I love my dog so much but it's old. 514 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,480 "Can you clone my dog for me so that I get the same one?" 515 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,520 The funniest one for me was certainly, "Well, we don't need men 516 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,600 in the world anymore." That didn't work out, really, though, did it? 517 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,280 SHE CHUCKLES 518 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,520 But I really don't think any of us were prepared 519 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,600 for the amount of attention, 520 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,480 and worldwide attention as well. 521 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,880 That also attracted other groups and factions, 522 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,280 which I think had probably always been aware 523 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,520 of some of the animal work that had gone on at the Roslin Institute 524 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,520 and there'd be the odd protest, 525 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,320 but the Institute became much more of a target, 526 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,760 and we were actually shown by the Army 527 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,720 how to check under our cars for incendiary devices, just in case, 528 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,560 which was a little bit scary. 529 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,480 SHEEP BAAS 530 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,520 There was an attempt to break in, but, of course, Dryden Farm 531 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,760 had several different buildings, and, if I remember correctly, 532 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:26,720 they tried to break in the wrong building. 533 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,480 I'm not quite sure what they were going to do with her. 534 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,440 Perhaps hold her for ransom or something. Not sure. 535 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,800 But what they didn't realise was 536 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,680 there was actually quite a lot of sheep down at Dryden Farm, 537 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,360 so when they broke in, 538 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,800 they were faced with hundreds of other sheep 539 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,440 and they didn't know which one she was, 540 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,080 so they had to leave empty-handed. 541 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,520 Dolly had become an icon. 542 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,880 She was a symbol of scientific genius 543 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,520 that also stirred uneasy, Frankenstein-like fears 544 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,760 about where cloning might lead. 545 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,920 Dolly was born into a world that maybe wasn't quite ready 546 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,280 for what she meant scientifically. 547 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,680 We'd had Jurassic Park a couple of years before. 548 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,360 You know, "Just because you can doesn't mean you should". 549 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,600 We'd had pictures of a mouse with an ear on its back. 550 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,920 That's nothing to do with cloning, but it sort of gets bucketed 551 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,280 in the same place in people's imaginations. 552 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,760 And you have all the discussion around GM foods 553 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,120 and what does that mean and do we want them. 554 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,440 And so when Dolly appears and it's this cloned sheep, 555 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,240 what does it mean next? 556 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,280 I think everyone freaked out. 557 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,920 And what she actually meant in scientific terms, 558 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:46,680 as the sort of big bang for a whole slew of changed understanding, 559 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,520 really got lost. 560 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,360 It was a very big story, but I think it captured the imagination, 561 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,960 in part, because the story had a face. 562 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,160 She was a rather cuddly-looking sheep, 563 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:04,040 and it kind of distracted you from the science that was going on. 564 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,360 A lot of people thought Dolly was genetically manipulated animal, 565 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:09,800 but she wasn't. 566 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,160 It was a tour de force, yes, but it wasn't a genetic manipulation. 567 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,920 So people were a bit confused on that side. 568 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,240 But the main focus of attention was, "Well, are humans next?" 569 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,360 That was the real concern. 570 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,280 The concept of you could take a cell from 571 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,920 an animal's tissue and make a completely new animal out of it, 572 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,000 and could you do it with humans? 573 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,520 You know, that grasped the imagination. 574 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:38,280 So animal cloning rather got lost in the frenzy 575 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,040 to look at all the implications of human cloning. 576 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,200 REPORTER: One scientist has announced he plans to clone his wife 577 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,760 at a Japanese clinic, where it may be legal. 578 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,840 What kind of ways could this technology be abused by a dictator? 579 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,400 That's what I ask myself. 580 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,160 Perhaps Saddam Hussein would like to give birth to himself 581 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,680 to see his own twin brought up in his own home, 582 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,640 not just once but 100 times. 10,000 times. 583 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,000 And, of course, the answer is 584 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,120 that it would have been almost impossible to do it with humans. 585 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,480 I mean, to try and get that amount of embryo, 586 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,440 to try and get that amount of donors, 587 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,760 to try and get that amount of women willing to be surrogates. 588 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,400 You know, it's really out of the question. 589 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,200 Let alone the embryology of humans is slightly different. 590 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,200 So I didn't think it was ever going to be feasible. 591 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:33,600 Dolly was acknowledged as Science Breakthrough of the Year in 1997, 592 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,200 beating even Nasa's Pathfinder mission to Mars. 593 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,560 But the team kept working on, 594 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,960 determined to advance the technology and take cloning further. 595 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,240 I mean, we had then since created other sheep. 596 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,600 We'd had Molly and Cupid and Diana. 597 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,880 Sheep called Polly and Holly. 598 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:53,240 And so on. 599 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,800 I think there were four or five of these animals. 600 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,760 People were interested, "Where do these names come from?", 601 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,120 and people made jokes about it, like, 602 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,080 "Why didn't you have a sheep called Trolley? 603 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,360 "Because you guys must be off your trolley." 604 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,000 You know, British expression. 605 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,920 Or Bolly. "Why don't you call it Bolly after Bollinger Champagne? 606 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,200 "Because it's such a wonderful..." 607 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,280 You know, people got a bit silly. 608 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,760 These sheep are just a selection of the post-Dolly flock. 609 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,520 Alan turned to pigs, applying the tech 610 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,680 in a bid to create organs for human transplant. 611 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,040 There have been pigs whose organs have been given to humans, 612 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:30,720 and they came from pigs 613 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,440 that a spin-off from PPL made for the first time 614 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,800 around about 2001. 615 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,280 Hasn't totally succeeded yet. It's a huge challenge. 616 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,640 And Dolly, 617 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:47,040 she had six healthy lambs with a Welsh mountain sheep named David. 618 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,520 The thing about Dolly was, one, she was a positive science story. 619 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,880 The other science stories that I've covered - 620 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,480 climate change, space crashes, Chernobyl - 621 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,840 are all very negative stories about science. 622 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,680 The great thing about Dolly was that she's been a force for good, 623 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:02,760 despite all the fears about cloning. 624 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,200 And another thing, of course, she was very good for British science. 625 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,520 This is a British science breakthrough. 626 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,560 But by 2002, 627 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,120 Dolly's health had started to go downhill. 628 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,240 Well, there was a problem that we had to keep Dolly in a shed, 629 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,520 so, you know, she picked up respiratory problems, 630 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,360 she picked up arthritis in one of her legs. 631 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,720 REPORTER: Dolly looks like an ordinary sheep, 632 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,080 but, in many ways, she remains a mystery. 633 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,520 At just five years old, she's developed arthritis in her hind leg. 634 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,120 And she got this very bad infection, we thought, in her lung. 635 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,320 It turned out to be some sort of cancer. 636 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:50,520 I hadn't been quite aware of how poorly she had become 637 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,880 and that she was going for tests up at the vet school. 638 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,560 To save Dolly any more pain, 639 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,280 the decision was taken to euthanize her. 640 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,680 She passed away on Valentine's Day 2003. 641 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,840 Soon after, the team gathered with champagne in hand 642 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,120 to celebrate the sheep who changed science forever. 643 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,200 I do remember writing a piece for that, and my words were, 644 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:17,840 you know, "Farewell, Dolly. 645 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,480 "You leave the world a better place for your existence", 646 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,760 because I think she was a power for the good. She was... 647 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,760 You know, she was... Her existence was important. 648 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,280 Dolly changed the world, 649 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,760 but her influence didn't die with her. 650 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,760 She gave rise to a whole new era of ground-breaking, radical science. 651 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,760 We can see the birth of Dolly as the big bang 652 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,760 that exploded an entire field of research. 653 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:56,080 Her greatest legacy is that she showed us what is possible 654 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:57,920 for an adult cell to do. 655 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,680 And in the intervening years, we've really increased our understanding 656 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,120 of how to make cells do our bidding. 657 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,520 It's unlocked this whole field of regenerative medicine. 658 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,000 You basically unlock biological time. 659 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,440 You effectively open a whole world of biological possibility. 660 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,520 I left PPL in 2001, 661 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:24,840 and then I went into academia in Singapore in about 2006, 2007. 662 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,640 Human embryonic stem cells, 663 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,760 but that just sort of coincided 664 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:35,840 with the wonderful work that Shinya Yamanaka had pioneered. 665 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,040 What Shinya Yamanaka had done which was extraordinary 666 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,680 is you don't need the whole oocyte or an egg 667 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,520 to reprogramme a cell. 668 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,400 All you need is four factors to kick-start the process. 669 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,200 Shinya Yamanaka discovered that adding just four genes, 670 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,000 also called factors, 671 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,000 could reprogramme a cell back to its earliest state. 672 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,440 This initiated revolutionary research into cell rejuvenation - 673 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,800 a giant leap in biology. 674 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,000 Shinya received the Nobel Prize in 2012 675 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,360 alongside John Gurdon, 676 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,360 and has always credited Dolly as his inspiration. 677 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,680 You basically just start the process and then stop it, 678 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,120 and if you do that a few times, 679 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,080 they stay what they are. 680 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,440 So if you started with skin cells, they stay skin cells. 681 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,120 But what happens is they become younger. 682 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,520 If you take cells from a 90-year-old individual 683 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,160 and then partially reprogramme those cells, 684 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,280 they get rejuvenated to probably 40 years 685 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:43,600 or 20 years old. 686 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,640 It's very exciting to have the ability 687 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,440 to suddenly introduce these factors for a few days 688 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,760 and you're 20 years younger. 689 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,440 Who doesn't want that? 690 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,640 Rejuvenation science is still in its infancy 691 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:01,760 but the potential is huge. 692 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,720 By winding the clock back but keeping the same cell function, 693 00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:10,240 we might one day be able to treat age-related diseases like dementia, 694 00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:12,520 grow bespoke organs for transplant 695 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,480 and even restore sight. 696 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:20,280 Now that we have the ability to manipulate cell fate in this way, 697 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,520 there are benefits to it, obvious benefits, 698 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,520 and there are also risks. 699 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,520 For example, when you think about something like cancer, 700 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,880 that happens because cells have forgotten 701 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,240 what they're meant to be doing, which is effectively 702 00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:35,600 what we're doing when we're reprogramming stem cells. 703 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,280 Dr Soufi and his team are investigating 704 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,320 how to make reprogramming more reliable 705 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,240 so that life-changing applications like rejuvenation 706 00:37:45,240 --> 00:37:48,480 can be carried out with far less risk. 707 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,760 I think in the past and still now, 708 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,200 we are playing catch-up with technology. 709 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,520 It is important to think about the consequences 710 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,560 before you start doing something. 711 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,360 It's not to just restrict it, 712 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,760 because ethics and moral questions are not there to restrict you. 713 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,480 They are there to guide you to do things in a certain way. 714 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,760 And also, especially after cloning Dolly, 715 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,520 there was a lot of misunderstanding of what was happening, 716 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,880 and that was not because people were against it, 717 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,520 it's just because people misunderstood what Dolly meant 718 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,360 and what the process was. 719 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,360 As science advances, ethics must also keep pace. 720 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:34,280 They draw in opinions from religion, business, technology and government. 721 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,200 Ethics is the safeguard that guides science 722 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,760 and stops research from overstepping the line. 723 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,120 Quite simply, we know that the frontiers 724 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,160 of social and environmental progress, 725 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,360 both here in Britain and across the world, depend upon science, 726 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,920 but they also depend on the boundaries 727 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,520 placed on science by society. 728 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,840 But we cannot afford to duck the challenge 729 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:57,760 just because it will be hard, 730 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,600 for while not everyone is in the business of science, 731 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,800 science is everybody's business. 732 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,760 So, the ability to think ahead is important 733 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,280 because it can help us advance faster, 734 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,720 rather than restrict us from doing things. 735 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,280 However, it's not quite that simple. 736 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:22,680 Many fear that the biotech giants will be able to play God 737 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,520 with this radical new knowledge and unpredictable innovation. 738 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,280 This whole field of stem cell technology 739 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,600 and regenerative medicine is moving so fast, 740 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,000 it's incredibly hard to keep up with the scientific advances, 741 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,040 the regulatory advances like what's happening where. 742 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,320 Well, there's always concern about biotech companies doing something 743 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,280 that is not in the open, but the science is being done 744 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,760 by thousands of people in different countries in the world, 745 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,520 and if we stopped it in Roslin, for example, or in anywhere in Britain, 746 00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:58,880 it wouldn't stop everybody else from doing it. 747 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,520 Because once the knowledge is out there, knowledge can't be reversed. 748 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,200 You know, it's available to everybody to build on. 749 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,760 Today's advancements in biotechnology 750 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,920 would have sounded like science fiction 30 years ago. 751 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,280 Dolly pushed biological boundaries, 752 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,760 launching a whole new era of genetic opportunity. 753 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,640 So, where we're at now is we have these 754 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:30,080 incredibly exciting technologies that enable us to control cell fate, 755 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,560 that we can basically turn cells into anything we want. 756 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,280 But the question is, how far can we go? 757 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:40,360 And so researchers are starting to look at, can we take adult cells 758 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,000 and turn them into things like eggs and sperm in the lab? 759 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,360 And this unlocks the possibility for people 760 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,880 who are unable to have their own biological children 761 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:53,120 to have eggs and sperm that are made from their own DNA. 762 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,560 Although much more research is needed, 763 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,000 the breakthrough could be a last hope 764 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:04,000 for those where options like IVF simply wouldn't work. 765 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,000 Scientists take DNA from a skin cell, 766 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,280 reprogramme it, place it into a donor egg 767 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,840 and allow it to develop into an embryo. 768 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,000 In essence, you're making a baby from a skin cell. 769 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,520 Being able to create embryos from skin cells, 770 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,600 I mean, that just about exemplifies 771 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,680 the power of what they achieved at Roslin. 772 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,040 To be able to do that now, 773 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,000 that's not going to produce babies in the next decade, 774 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,520 but one day it offers a real prospect 775 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:41,280 that people who can't have IVF, people who have got various reasons, 776 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,360 who've lost all their eggs because of a cancer treatment, 777 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,240 will be, ultimately, able to have children. 778 00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:49,760 Now, that is one of the most exciting things 779 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,000 that's ever going to come out, and it's the techniques that were used 780 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,360 to make Dolly that are used to make this a possibility, a prospect. 781 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,920 The impact of Dolly on the scientific community 782 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:02,840 was truly ground-breaking. 783 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,200 But she didn't just rewrite science, 784 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,280 she transformed ethics and regulation 785 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:12,000 and sparked debates about what it truly means to be human. 786 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,520 And, of course, made Roslin famous. 787 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,960 After Dolly was born, it put Roslin on the map, 788 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,520 which it wasn't really on the map at that point. 789 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,520 It was an agricultural institute. 790 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,520 Very few people had heard about it, 791 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,320 and those who had heard about it were quite rude about it. 792 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,520 Most people didn't realise we had got into molecular biology 793 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,520 and embryology and those sorts of things. 794 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,000 They didn't realise how the research institute had changed, 795 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,760 but it did become very important for the institute 796 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,120 because it gave us credibility, huge credibility. 797 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,600 I'm sure all of us who were heavily involved can recount stories, 798 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,240 amusing stories, 799 00:42:52,240 --> 00:42:55,800 after, in the years following. There was so much excitement. 800 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,280 For example, I lectured in Cuba 801 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,600 and Fidel Castro got in touch with me. 802 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:07,680 He was interested in whether our company could clone a cow 803 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,840 that had been a wonderful milker. 804 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,200 The cow was long since dead, 805 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,920 but they'd frozen white blood cells from the cow in liquid nitrogen, 806 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:22,320 so he wanted to know whether we could resuscitate, if you like, 807 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,840 a herd of these very elite animals by cloning. 808 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:27,680 I said, "It might be possible, 809 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,240 "but we're not interested in that use of cloning." 810 00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:33,400 As a company, we were interested in the human medical benefits. 811 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,880 But when I left Cuba, I was sitting in the departure lounge 812 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,840 and three military generals came in looking for me. 813 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,440 They presented me with an alligator leather belt, 814 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:50,000 three bottles of premium Bacardi rum 815 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,520 and a box of 54 Havana cigars 816 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,960 with a card inside signed off by Fidel Castro. 817 00:43:57,960 --> 00:43:59,600 SHEEP BAAS 818 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,080 And she changed forever the lives of those 819 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,080 who got to experience her first-hand. 820 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,000 When I look back, it feels like an enormous privilege 821 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,320 to have been at the centre of something as big as that story was. 822 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,280 But it is also quite surreal. 823 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,800 The most famous person I've ever met wasn't a person, she was a sheep, 824 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,280 and that's quite an odd... It's quite an odd memory to have. 825 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,600 When I left the paper, what happens after you've been there 826 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,960 a certain time, they give you a front page 827 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,240 which is exceptionally rude about you 828 00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:33,120 and it's got all the idiosyncrasies, 829 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,480 and the splash story about me is, 830 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,920 "Science editor cloned from Neanderthal DNA", 831 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,280 and the byline was Dolly the Sheep, 832 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,800 so, you know, it's stuck with me for life. 833 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,160 Dolly came into my life when I was really starting 834 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:55,080 to get interested in these questions of, "How do genes work? 835 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:59,600 "How does life work?", and set me on that course. 836 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,760 And when I got to go and see her in the Museum of Scotland, 837 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,280 where she now resides, I wouldn't exactly say we shared a moment, 838 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,680 but I did want to say, well, "Thank you. 839 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,960 "You're just a sheep, but you're a really special one." 840 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,920 The greatest inheritance of the Dolly experiment 841 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,440 was that biologists were made to think differently. 842 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,280 Although no longer with us, 843 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,280 Ian and Keith were the driving force behind Dolly. 844 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,200 Without them, she simply wouldn't exist. 845 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,200 They continued their research, 846 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,880 Ian with personal motivation 847 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,760 after receiving a Parkinson's diagnosis in 2017 - 848 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,440 something Dolly's legacy could one day help treat. 849 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,680 I think the legacy of Dolly, 850 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,000 as we're now 30 years down the line... 851 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:49,480 ..you know, people still know who she is, 852 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:51,200 what she was, 853 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,160 the breakthrough that that meant. 854 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:58,480 And although perhaps the hopes that we had 855 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,280 for medicinal developments 856 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,960 haven't happened as quickly as we'd wanted, 857 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,320 they are happening 858 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:11,680 and I think the legacy of Dolly is there will always be hope. 859 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,040 There is that hope 860 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:19,440 that what you've been taught or told can't happen 861 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,720 can happen. 862 00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:24,280 Never say never. Always have hope.