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(mysterious music playing)

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Jamie Dimon:
Every day, you know,
you have nonstop Bitcoin.

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00:00:20,210 --> 00:00:22,130
Who cares about Bitcoin?

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(click)

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(cash register dings)

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I couldn't care less
what Bitcoin trades for,

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how it trades, why it trades,
who trades it.

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If you're stupid enough to buy,

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you'll pay the price
for it one day.

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(clicking)

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YouTuber:
Bitcoin is a fucking scam.

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Donald Trump (on phone):
Bitcoin seems like a scam.

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-Magical internet money.
-It has no intrinsic value.

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(clicking)

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Dimon:
Bitcoin is worthless.

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-What makes it valuable?
-Totally BS.

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Bitcoin is a dead end.

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Brian Kelly:
Bitcoin's dead again!

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It's a combination of a bubble,
a Ponzi scheme,

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00:00:56,490 --> 00:00:57,490
and an economic disaster.

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Whatever it's doing,
it's not money.

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Whatever Bitcoin is,
it is not money.

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-(clicking)
-(cash register dings)

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Bitcoin is simply gonna implode
before you know it.

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Today, we're having
a funeral for Bitcoin.

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Cullen Hoback: Despite all
the doomsday prophecies,

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just 15 years after launch,
Bitcoin had become

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the 10th most valuable asset
in the world,

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outperforming Wall Street
by a massive margin.

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One of the biggest
unanswered questions

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surrounding Bitcoin
is who invented it.

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Andy Court:
When you ask about the creator,

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who created this,
we have no idea.

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-There's these things
called nerds.
-(studio laughter)

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And in 2008,

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one of them made up Bitcoin
out of thin air,

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using the fake name
Satoshi Nakamoto.

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Satoshi Nakamoto.

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-Satoshi--
-Nakamoto.

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Which, I think,
are the Japanese words

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-for Monopoly money.
-(studio laughter)

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Hoback:
Satoshi Nakamoto,

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the inventor of said
Monopoly money,

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was now presumably one of
the richest people on Earth.

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speaker:
We are all Satoshi!

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(applause, cheering)

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Hoback:
This anonymous character had
developed quite a following.

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And if all these pundits
kept being wrong,

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and Bitcoin kept going up,

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then Satoshi could be worth

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more than
a trillion dollars.

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-With a "T."
-(cash register dings)

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And that's because
Satoshi controlled

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a shit-ton of Bitcoin.

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Enough to break the system.

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But, many years ago,
Satoshi had disappeared

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without spending any of it.

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What would happen

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if Satoshi just
reemerged one day

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to cash in?

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They'd be like
king of the world.

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Who is Satoshi Nakamoto?

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Who do you think
he really is?

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Hoback:
Simply put, Satoshi's identity

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has remained
the greatest mystery

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of the Internet Age.

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No one knows who they are,
even though a lot of people

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have tried to figure this out.

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YouTuber:
Tonight's plan?
To reveal the identity

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of Satoshi Nakamoto,

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creator of Bitcoin.

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Is he no longer here?
Is he amongst us?

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♪♪

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Hoback:
Well, someone probably knew.

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Like maybe this guy...

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It's too high risk
for Satoshi to come back.

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-(ding)
-Hoback: ...who you'll
get to know soon enough.

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It's way too high risk.

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What's risky about it?

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Well, you get
implicated as Satoshi.

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And then, every country
in the world

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is gonna wanna go after you.

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Or people are gonna go
after you to steal it.

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But, why does,
like, a murderer

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go back to
the scene of the crime?

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Satoshi's doing nothing
to pick up his stash.

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Hoback:
Yeah, just a million Bitcoin.

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And that's why he went
to such great lengths

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to conceal his identity.

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He thought of everything.

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Hoback:
Well, not everything.

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(dramatic music playing)

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-Cash.
-customer: That should be 1,000.

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Hoback:
How often do you pay with it?

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customer:
Such nice guns!

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Hoback:
You probably use your card
for just about everything.

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-Denied, denied... approved.
-(studio laughter)

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Hoback:
But the cool thing about cash,

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you hand over your money,

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you get a thing,

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and no bank, credit card
company, government agency,

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data broker,
social media advertiser

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gets to know
about your hobbies.

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But, it seemed like
we were maybe on our way

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to getting rid
of cash entirely.

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As the world transitions
into a cashless society...

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speaker:
"We've gone cashless."

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No one wants to
carry around cash anymore.
That's already-- Cash is gone.

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Hoback:
In fact, there are quite
a few things about the dollar

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that were just outdated
because these dudes

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-didn't have iPhones.
-(notification chimes)

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But, if you were
to start from scratch,

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how would you make cash
for the digital age?

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It was 2017

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when I really started
paying attention to Bitcoin.

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And as a filmmaker

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who was concerned
with online surveillance...

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Everything moved
into ones and zeros,

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and ones and zeros can be
tracked and traced.

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...the idea that Bitcoin

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was supposed to protect your
privacy was pretty appealing.

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It was trying to be money
for the internet.

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♪♪

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And it had a few features

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that the current
financial system just didn't.

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-(bell clanging)
-announcer: Fight!

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Hoback:
No single person or group
controlled it,

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it was basically impossible
to shut down,

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-it was scarce.
-(Pikachu panting)

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Anyone with an internet
connection could access it.

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-You are personally
responsible for it.
-(roars)

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And it was super secure

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unless you made a mistake.

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And it was distributed
through something called

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"Bitcoin mining,"

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which I tried.

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-Even if you don't usually
pay attention to Bitcoin...
-(rummaging)

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...you might have
still heard about it.

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Miners using powerful computers

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to guess a random
string of numbers

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and win a Bitcoin reward.

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Hoback:
It's how new Bitcoins
enter the system.

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This fancy computing rig,

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it's like a ticket
to the Bitcoin lottery.

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You said 1,600 Watts?

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It takes a lot of electricity.

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-(rustling)
-And if your mining rig is
the first in the entire world

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to find
the computational equivalent

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of a golden ticket...

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-I got it, Mr. Salt!
Here it is!
-(cheering)

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Hoback: ...you win some
freshly minted Bitcoin.

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That means that some people
are gonna lose a lot of money.

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-Probably.
-Oh yeah.

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Hoback:
And every 10 minutes,
you get another shot.

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It was the modern gold rush

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from the comfort
of your living room.

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-But, my miner wasn't so lucky.
-(fan whirring)

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So, instead of winning
a down payment for a house,

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I just ended up with
a large electricity bill.

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-(whirring stops)
-Eh, fuck.

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And the occasional
power outage.

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I don't think
this is gonna work. (laughs)

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Meaning I'd have to go
get my Bitcoin on an exchange,

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kinda like
how you buy stocks.

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And like stocks,

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people kinda hope
that this digital asset

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-is gonna make them rich.
-(cheering)

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Which, let's be honest,
was the real draw.

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(blasting music)

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It was fueled
by an online culture

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that was invested
in seeing Bitcoin win.

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You're supposed to buy the dip.
Buy Bitcoin.

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Hoback:
Designed to pull people away
from a financial system

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that seemed like it was stacked
against the average person.

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If you win all three rats,

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-and they come in one-two-three,
you win everything.
-Oh, my God.

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Drew Carey:
But, you have to win some rats.

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Hoback:
And Bitcoin provided
this glimmer of hope

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that you might get
out of the rat race.

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-Look at them go! Oh, man,
you're gonna have a car.
-(crowd cheering)

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(rats squeaking)

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Hoback:
Asking you to put
your faith in math

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instead of the government.

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-I don't know what I said, ah!
-We finally beat Medicare.

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Hoback:
So, maybe that's why in 2021,

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an entire country
adopted Bitcoin.

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Because the current
financial system

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was also stacked
against them.

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-(street chatter)
-(curious music playing)

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This is El Salvador,
a Latin American nation

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plagued with a history
of gang violence,

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corruption, and civil war.

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For more than 20 years,
they had resorted

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to using the US dollar
as their official currency,

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adding to why
the president's announcement

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sent shock waves
around the world.

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00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:04,920
(crowd cheering)

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00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:06,300
Nayib Bukele:
Where are the Bitcoiners?

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00:08:06,710 --> 00:08:09,470
Hoback:
He planned to tie the
country's future to Bitcoin.

200
00:08:09,550 --> 00:08:11,970
For starters, they bought
a bunch of it using...

201
00:08:12,050 --> 00:08:14,640
reporter:
105 million taxpayer dollars.

202
00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:16,890
Hoback:
Then, the country began
accepting Bitcoin

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00:08:16,970 --> 00:08:18,940
as legal tender.

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Suddenly, Bitcoin could be
used alongside the dollar

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00:08:21,980 --> 00:08:24,480
to pay for things
like breakfast, real estate,

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00:08:24,570 --> 00:08:26,400
or even taxes.

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00:08:26,940 --> 00:08:28,740
At least, that was the idea.

208
00:08:28,820 --> 00:08:32,370
We announced that El Salvador
was making Bitcoin legal tender.

209
00:08:32,450 --> 00:08:35,080
(crowd cheering)

210
00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,290
We had some protests,
did you see those?

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00:08:37,330 --> 00:08:39,700
They started with misinformation
to the people,

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00:08:39,790 --> 00:08:40,960
telling them Bitcoin was bad,

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00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:42,880
and, you know, you shouldn't
use that currency

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00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:44,750
because it's invisible.
You cannot see it!

215
00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,170
-(laughter)
-Yeah, exactly.

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They are all full of bullshit.

217
00:08:49,050 --> 00:08:50,630
Hoback:
The president was betting

218
00:08:50,680 --> 00:08:53,340
that other countries
would want in on the game,

219
00:08:53,430 --> 00:08:56,640
would reject the hegemony
of the US dollar.

220
00:08:56,680 --> 00:08:57,890
Who was behind this effort?

221
00:08:58,390 --> 00:09:02,100
So, we talked with
my friend Samson. Where is he?

222
00:09:02,190 --> 00:09:03,980
-(cheering)
-Samson?

223
00:09:04,020 --> 00:09:06,360
So, this is going
to make El Salvador

224
00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:08,400
the financial center
of the world.

225
00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,610
This is the beginning of, uh,
nation-state Bitcoin FOMO.

226
00:09:12,700 --> 00:09:14,530
Do you guys like that?

227
00:09:14,570 --> 00:09:16,200
(crowd cheering)

228
00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:17,950
Hoback:
The guy on stage
with the president

229
00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:19,750
clearly had something
to do with it.

230
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:21,540
So, I reached out.

231
00:09:21,580 --> 00:09:24,540
-Hello, we're going
on a helicopter.
-speaker: That's right. Hello.

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00:09:24,580 --> 00:09:27,420
Hoback:
Samson worked for a company
that was trying to expand

233
00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:29,260
Bitcoin's reach
around the globe.

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00:09:29,340 --> 00:09:31,090
He considered himself a kind of

235
00:09:31,170 --> 00:09:33,590
diplomatic ambassador
for Bitcoin.

236
00:09:34,050 --> 00:09:36,180
And the president
was treating him like one.

237
00:09:36,260 --> 00:09:39,180
-(helicopter whirring)
-Samson was busy

238
00:09:39,220 --> 00:09:40,980
trying to convince
Mexico's third richest man,

239
00:09:41,060 --> 00:09:43,520
known as Uncle Richi,

240
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:45,020
to use his power plant
to mine Bitcoin.

241
00:09:45,100 --> 00:09:47,400
Because, you know,

242
00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,150
who wants to just
be third richest?

243
00:09:50,230 --> 00:09:52,650
(Ricardo Salinas
speaking English)

244
00:09:55,740 --> 00:09:57,280
(Samson Mow
speaking English)

245
00:09:58,700 --> 00:10:00,450
(Salinas speaking)

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00:10:06,420 --> 00:10:09,300
Hoback: Like myself,
investors also had questions

247
00:10:09,380 --> 00:10:12,800
when it came to Satoshi,
Bitcoin's anonymous creator.

248
00:10:13,420 --> 00:10:17,430
It was the elephant in
the helicopter, so to speak.

249
00:10:27,690 --> 00:10:28,730
-They're gone.
-They're gone.

250
00:10:52,590 --> 00:10:53,630
Yep.

251
00:10:55,510 --> 00:10:57,340
Hoback:
Just before
the launch of Bitcoin,

252
00:10:57,430 --> 00:11:00,970
there was a digital currency
backed by actual gold,

253
00:11:01,060 --> 00:11:03,640
which was reportedly
processing $2 billion

254
00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:05,560
in transactions every year.

255
00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:07,480
E-gold is a currency

256
00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,650
that's currently
pretty popularized

257
00:11:09,730 --> 00:11:11,230
with a lot of online users.

258
00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,400
Hoback:
They promised that e-gold
would be here this year,

259
00:11:14,490 --> 00:11:17,070
next year,
1,000 years from now.

260
00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:18,570
But, it seems the US government

261
00:11:18,660 --> 00:11:21,030
didn't give a shit
what their website said.

262
00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,080
They arrested its creator
and shut it down.

263
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:25,200
The takeaway?

264
00:11:25,410 --> 00:11:27,460
If you're going to create
a digital currency

265
00:11:27,540 --> 00:11:29,500
that will compete
with the US dollar,

266
00:11:29,540 --> 00:11:31,210
you might wanna be
really careful

267
00:11:31,290 --> 00:11:34,210
about letting people
know who you are.

268
00:11:34,300 --> 00:11:36,920
And because Satoshi disappeared
and never cashed out,

269
00:11:37,010 --> 00:11:40,010
I figured maybe their identity
should stay a secret.

270
00:11:40,050 --> 00:11:42,260
-(propeller plane whirring)
-After all,

271
00:11:42,350 --> 00:11:44,100
it's not like they had
some master plan for Bitcoin

272
00:11:44,180 --> 00:11:46,850
to replace the US dollar
and render them

273
00:11:46,930 --> 00:11:49,310
the richest person on Earth.
Right?

274
00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:50,690
(quirky music playing)

275
00:11:50,770 --> 00:11:52,980
Satoshi understood
the game theory of it all.

276
00:11:53,070 --> 00:11:55,860
If Bitcoin was successful,

277
00:11:56,900 --> 00:11:58,240
they'd go after him.

278
00:11:58,910 --> 00:12:01,120
(Hoback speaking)

279
00:12:05,500 --> 00:12:08,500
I don't think he would've
created this gift for the world

280
00:12:08,540 --> 00:12:11,500
just to keep it as
a threat over the future.

281
00:12:11,540 --> 00:12:15,130
He was more thinking
for the good of humanity.

282
00:12:15,210 --> 00:12:17,800
Money is very broken.

283
00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,550
It's just a house of cards built
on top of more houses of cards

284
00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:23,180
on more houses of cards.

285
00:12:23,260 --> 00:12:24,890
It's all gonna
come crashing down.

286
00:12:24,930 --> 00:12:29,100
And when it does, that's when
hyperbitcoinization kicks in.

287
00:12:29,190 --> 00:12:30,980
(Hoback speaking)

288
00:12:31,060 --> 00:12:32,900
Samson Mow:
Hyperbitcoinization is just,

289
00:12:32,940 --> 00:12:35,570
you can earn Bitcoin,
spend Bitcoin,

290
00:12:35,650 --> 00:12:39,780
save in Bitcoin,
and the dollar is irrelevant.

291
00:12:40,860 --> 00:12:42,370
Hoback:
There are a handful
of countries

292
00:12:42,450 --> 00:12:44,780
that had printed their way
into hyperinflation,

293
00:12:44,990 --> 00:12:48,580
where money becomes worth less
than the paper it's printed on.

294
00:12:48,660 --> 00:12:51,620
But, that could never happen
to the US dollar.

295
00:12:52,580 --> 00:12:54,000
Could it?

296
00:12:54,500 --> 00:12:56,300
-(tense music playing)
-(crowd chatter)

297
00:12:56,380 --> 00:12:58,170
reporter 1:
Lehman Brothers
is going bankrupt.

298
00:12:58,260 --> 00:13:00,090
reporter 2:
Customers are freaked out,

299
00:13:00,130 --> 00:13:01,760
waiting to see
how low the Dow will go.

300
00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,430
Hoback:
Back in 2008,
the world came really close

301
00:13:04,510 --> 00:13:06,930
to figuring out that
our entire economic system

302
00:13:07,010 --> 00:13:09,640
was held together with
chewing gum and duct tape.

303
00:13:09,730 --> 00:13:11,600
reporter:
The President's plan
would allow the Treasury

304
00:13:11,690 --> 00:13:15,520
to buy up to $700 billion
worth of bad loans.

305
00:13:15,610 --> 00:13:18,530
Hoback:
Trust in financial institutions
was hard to find.

306
00:13:18,610 --> 00:13:21,860
I know Americans are concerned
about the adjustments.

307
00:13:21,950 --> 00:13:24,410
-(shutter snapping)
-Hoback: The only business
that seemed to be booming

308
00:13:24,490 --> 00:13:27,950
involved taking pictures
of depressed stockbrokers.

309
00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,250
It was during this fiasco
that a mysterious programmer,

310
00:13:31,330 --> 00:13:34,000
calling themselves
Satoshi Nakamoto,

311
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:35,500
conceived of Bitcoin,

312
00:13:35,590 --> 00:13:38,300
an electronic cash system.

313
00:13:38,340 --> 00:13:41,840
And it was all set in motion
on January 3, 2009...

314
00:13:43,380 --> 00:13:45,930
when the first
Bitcoin block was born.

315
00:13:46,010 --> 00:13:48,260
It's called the Genesis Block.

316
00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:51,810
And a new block is formed
about every 10 minutes,

317
00:13:51,890 --> 00:13:55,270
adding to the record of
all the Bitcoin transactions.

318
00:13:55,310 --> 00:13:57,230
It's called a blockchain.

319
00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,320
It's like an indestructible
mathematical safe,

320
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,860
one that keeps track
of who owns what.

321
00:14:03,530 --> 00:14:05,990
And if you want to
unlock your Bitcoin,

322
00:14:06,030 --> 00:14:08,280
it'll require
your secret key,

323
00:14:08,330 --> 00:14:10,950
which is basically
just a fancy password.

324
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,620
Bitcoin now has hundreds
of thousands of blocks.

325
00:14:14,710 --> 00:14:18,420
But, in the Genesis Block,
Satoshi hid a message.

326
00:14:18,500 --> 00:14:21,550
"Chancellor on brink
of second bailout for banks."

327
00:14:22,090 --> 00:14:24,840
Referencing a headline that had
appeared in the London "Times"

328
00:14:24,930 --> 00:14:26,550
that same morning.

329
00:14:27,220 --> 00:14:28,720
It was a subtle
declaration of war

330
00:14:28,810 --> 00:14:30,680
against the world's
financial powers,

331
00:14:30,770 --> 00:14:33,350
which had just printed
more than a trillion dollars

332
00:14:33,430 --> 00:14:36,350
to satisfy the recklessness
of the big banks.

333
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,060
In apparent opposition,

334
00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,110
Satoshi designed Bitcoin
with a limited supply.

335
00:14:41,730 --> 00:14:43,690
No one could just
print more of it.

336
00:14:43,780 --> 00:14:46,910
Only 21 million total
could ever be mined.

337
00:14:46,990 --> 00:14:50,240
It was programmed so that
the miners would receive

338
00:14:50,330 --> 00:14:52,200
less and less over time.

339
00:14:52,290 --> 00:14:53,700
Until 2140,

340
00:14:53,790 --> 00:14:57,000
when the digital mine
basically runs out,

341
00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:58,380
with Satoshi writing,

342
00:14:58,460 --> 00:15:01,250
"It's very attractive
to the libertarian viewpoint,

343
00:15:01,340 --> 00:15:02,880
"if we can explain it properly.

344
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,930
I'm better with code
than with words though."

345
00:15:06,010 --> 00:15:08,180
You know, for Bitcoiners
who actually might know

346
00:15:08,260 --> 00:15:09,470
who Satoshi is, if they do,

347
00:15:09,550 --> 00:15:12,100
do you think that
they would keep that secret?

348
00:15:12,180 --> 00:15:14,100
(plane whirring)

349
00:15:14,180 --> 00:15:16,390
Well, I would keep the secret.

350
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,560
Adam Back
would keep the secret.

351
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,570
Hoback: Samson's boss
is a cryptographer

352
00:15:21,650 --> 00:15:25,190
named Adam Back
which jumped out at me

353
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:26,490
because Adam Back

354
00:15:26,570 --> 00:15:29,200
has a pretty important
connection to Satoshi.

355
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,620
He was believed to be
the first person

356
00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:34,040
Satoshi ever reached out to.

357
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,210
People have pushed Adam
to release the Satoshi emails

358
00:15:37,290 --> 00:15:39,080
that Satoshi sent to him.

359
00:15:39,170 --> 00:15:41,630
But, Adam is
a very upstanding guy.

360
00:15:41,710 --> 00:15:44,760
His line of thinking is that
is a private conversation.

361
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:46,510
So, he's never released
those emails.

362
00:15:46,590 --> 00:15:48,800
I've seen them, and, you know,

363
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:50,800
they're real.

364
00:15:51,470 --> 00:15:54,100
Hoback:
Adam's company is
called Blockstream.

365
00:15:54,140 --> 00:15:56,810
They were largely behind
this effort in El Salvador.

366
00:15:56,890 --> 00:15:58,520
And now, they were looking
to help

367
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,440
more countries adopt Bitcoin.

368
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,320
Which brings Bitcoin closer

369
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,570
to becoming
the new global standard.

370
00:16:04,610 --> 00:16:07,150
Which, in turn,
could make Satoshi

371
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,530
the richest person on Earth.

372
00:16:09,610 --> 00:16:11,030
It might make you wonder

373
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:12,990
if Satoshi had any
relationship to Blockstream,

374
00:16:13,790 --> 00:16:16,580
assuming Satoshi
was still alive.

375
00:16:16,950 --> 00:16:20,580
So, I asked Samson if he could
connect me with Adam Back.

376
00:16:20,630 --> 00:16:23,540
-Adam, is your mic on?
Can you hear me?
-Just wait a minute...

377
00:16:23,630 --> 00:16:25,170
Okay, should be good.

378
00:16:26,170 --> 00:16:28,380
(over video call)
I had, you know,
a brief interaction,

379
00:16:28,470 --> 00:16:31,640
email interaction,
with Satoshi in 2008.

380
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,810
And-And, like, what happened?
We don't know.

381
00:16:33,850 --> 00:16:36,310
I mean, is he alive or not?
I don't know. Um...

382
00:16:36,770 --> 00:16:38,310
Did he just choose
a different pseudonym?

383
00:16:38,350 --> 00:16:39,640
Is he-- he still active?

384
00:16:39,730 --> 00:16:41,060
We don't know that either,
I'd say.

385
00:16:41,150 --> 00:16:44,820
Satoshi's wallet,
there's this huge sort of chest

386
00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:45,860
that hasn't been tapped.

387
00:16:45,940 --> 00:16:48,070
It seems almost like a,
you know, a Bible story,

388
00:16:48,150 --> 00:16:49,700
where nobody really knows
quite what happened

389
00:16:49,780 --> 00:16:51,200
because it was
so many years ago.

390
00:16:51,740 --> 00:16:54,700
It's hard to be definitive,
I guess is my point. (laughs)

391
00:16:55,490 --> 00:16:57,580
Hoback (over video call):
So, Adam, are you
planning any trips

392
00:16:57,660 --> 00:16:59,160
to El Salvador anytime soon?

393
00:16:59,250 --> 00:17:01,580
Adam Back:
I haven't really been
traveling that much lately.

394
00:17:01,670 --> 00:17:03,500
Usually in Malta, actually.

395
00:17:03,580 --> 00:17:07,210
We should start with just
an interview with you in Malta.

396
00:17:07,300 --> 00:17:08,550
Um...

397
00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,680
If that sounds...
if that sounds good to you.

398
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:15,050
Okay.

399
00:17:15,810 --> 00:17:17,850
♪♪

400
00:17:17,930 --> 00:17:19,560
Hoback:
When Adam moved to Malta,

401
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,640
Bitcoin was just
getting started.

402
00:17:21,690 --> 00:17:22,980
It had no value yet.

403
00:17:23,060 --> 00:17:25,360
So, perhaps it's just
a coincidence

404
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,190
that Malta is considered
a tax haven.

405
00:17:29,190 --> 00:17:30,900
So, how'd you end up in Malta?

406
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,660
Adam Back:
Um, so, in 2009,

407
00:17:33,700 --> 00:17:35,580
I was working for a startup.

408
00:17:35,660 --> 00:17:37,490
I was thinking
as a remote worker,

409
00:17:37,540 --> 00:17:38,700
I would try
something adventurous,

410
00:17:38,790 --> 00:17:40,830
find somewhere
interesting to live.

411
00:17:41,410 --> 00:17:44,040
Hoback:
The cryptography behind Bitcoin

412
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:45,880
is what makes it secure.

413
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,170
It's the "crypto"
in cryptocurrency.

414
00:17:48,210 --> 00:17:51,550
And cryptographers,
they're like the math wizards

415
00:17:51,630 --> 00:17:54,550
who are skilled
at making digital locks.

416
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,050
And to create Bitcoin,

417
00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:58,220
Satoshi referenced ideas
from a few of them.

418
00:17:58,310 --> 00:18:01,310
In particular, something
that Adam Back had invented,

419
00:18:01,390 --> 00:18:02,690
called Hashcash.

420
00:18:02,980 --> 00:18:06,730
And he dreamed this up 12 years
before the creation of Bitcoin.

421
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:10,990
Were you the first person
that Satoshi reached out to?

422
00:18:11,070 --> 00:18:12,150
I believe so, yeah.

423
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:13,910
He just sent an email, um,

424
00:18:13,950 --> 00:18:16,450
saying that he's about
to publish, um, a paper...

425
00:18:16,910 --> 00:18:20,240
Hoback:
What would become Satoshi's
famous white paper.

426
00:18:20,790 --> 00:18:24,620
...and wants to know the
correct way to cite Hashcash.

427
00:18:27,250 --> 00:18:30,960
Did you ever release the emails
that you had with Satoshi?

428
00:18:32,010 --> 00:18:34,550
-No.
-Was that to protect privacy

429
00:18:34,630 --> 00:18:36,470
'cause they were private emails
or what was the reason?

430
00:18:36,550 --> 00:18:37,890
Yeah, kind of convention--

431
00:18:37,930 --> 00:18:40,930
I mean, convention,
so-called "netiquette,"

432
00:18:40,970 --> 00:18:43,310
which was a popular term
back then, was that

433
00:18:43,390 --> 00:18:45,850
you would not post somebody's
emails without permission.

434
00:18:45,940 --> 00:18:47,770
Like, nobody knows how to
reach this guy at this point,

435
00:18:47,810 --> 00:18:49,230
so I can't ask, you know?

436
00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:51,610
Hoback:
But, we can look into
the group of people

437
00:18:51,690 --> 00:18:55,110
Satoshi relied on
for inspiration and support.

438
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:56,950
Namely, the cypherpunks.

439
00:18:57,030 --> 00:18:59,490
-(modem dialing up)
-(dramatic music playing)

440
00:18:59,910 --> 00:19:01,910
Back in the day,
there was a lot of hope

441
00:19:01,950 --> 00:19:03,660
that this thing called
the internet

442
00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:06,330
was going to usher
in an era of newfound freedom.

443
00:19:06,420 --> 00:19:09,290
BBC speaker:
Imagine a world
where every word ever written

444
00:19:09,340 --> 00:19:11,340
could be viewed
instantly in your home

445
00:19:11,420 --> 00:19:13,550
via an information superhighway.

446
00:19:13,630 --> 00:19:15,800
Hoback:
But, only a few predicted

447
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,430
the surveillance hellscape
that lay ahead.

448
00:19:18,510 --> 00:19:21,640
And they could be found on
the Cypherpunk Mailing List.

449
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,930
Every cryptographer
worth their salt was on it.

450
00:19:24,980 --> 00:19:26,850
Cypherpunks are
cryptography activists

451
00:19:26,940 --> 00:19:29,610
who believe in personal
privacy for everybody.

452
00:19:29,650 --> 00:19:31,900
Hoback:
Which meant in a digital world,

453
00:19:31,980 --> 00:19:34,780
you would need some way
to secure your communications.

454
00:19:34,820 --> 00:19:36,950
In the physical world, you had
a good degree of privacy.

455
00:19:36,990 --> 00:19:38,660
In the online realm,
in principle,

456
00:19:38,740 --> 00:19:39,990
you should enjoy
the same rights.

457
00:19:40,030 --> 00:19:41,740
I mean, why should you lose
your rights just because

458
00:19:41,830 --> 00:19:43,660
you're using a different
communication mechanism?

459
00:19:44,450 --> 00:19:47,790
Hoback:
But, the military,
and three-letter agencies,

460
00:19:47,830 --> 00:19:50,590
viewed cryptography
as a tool of war.

461
00:19:50,670 --> 00:19:52,420
And they didn't want
unbreakable security

462
00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:53,460
in the hands of the masses.

463
00:19:53,500 --> 00:19:55,380
The unrestrained
public discussion

464
00:19:55,470 --> 00:19:56,880
of cryptographic research

465
00:19:56,970 --> 00:19:58,550
threatened our
national security.

466
00:19:58,630 --> 00:19:59,840
Hoback:
The cypherpunks waged

467
00:19:59,930 --> 00:20:02,180
a massive battle
against the US government.

468
00:20:02,220 --> 00:20:04,470
Back:
I was sitting around
at university and thinking,

469
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:06,480
man, this is,
this is so ridiculous.

470
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,020
-Hoback: So, Adam,
being part punk...
-(electric guitar sting)

471
00:20:09,100 --> 00:20:12,020
...created an easily wearable
bit of illicit code.

472
00:20:12,070 --> 00:20:14,690
It was just a method
of encryption.

473
00:20:14,780 --> 00:20:16,650
Wear the shirt
while crossing a border,

474
00:20:16,690 --> 00:20:18,400
and it could be considered
weapons trafficking.

475
00:20:18,490 --> 00:20:20,700
-(buzzing)
-Back: A few people
had tattoos with it on

476
00:20:20,740 --> 00:20:22,870
to, like, you know,
to make the argument that,

477
00:20:22,950 --> 00:20:24,540
"Well, can I,
can I leave the country now?

478
00:20:24,620 --> 00:20:26,580
I've got this on my arm,"
kind of thing.

479
00:20:26,910 --> 00:20:29,370
Hoback:
And if you've ever used
a secure messaging app,

480
00:20:30,210 --> 00:20:33,340
well, you have Adam and his
cypherpunk buddies to thank

481
00:20:33,420 --> 00:20:34,710
because they won.

482
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,090
Except one key thing
evaded them.

483
00:20:37,170 --> 00:20:39,380
Back:
Permissionless electronic cash
for the internet.

484
00:20:39,470 --> 00:20:41,550
Hey, this could actually
change the world for the better.

485
00:20:41,590 --> 00:20:43,220
Hoback:
They understood
that in a future

486
00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:45,520
where everything would be
tracked and traced,

487
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,060
you needed untraceable
digital cash.

488
00:20:48,140 --> 00:20:50,440
The holy grail was to find
a solution to this problem.

489
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:51,600
Hoback:
And we're not talking about

490
00:20:51,690 --> 00:20:53,560
a digital representation
of money

491
00:20:53,650 --> 00:20:55,020
like when you use
a bank or credit card.

492
00:20:55,070 --> 00:20:57,490
-(buzzing)
-We're talking
entirely decentralized,

493
00:20:57,570 --> 00:21:00,070
-totally secure,
fully autonomous currencies
-(whooshing)

494
00:21:00,150 --> 00:21:03,870
spread across the globe that no
one could control or shut down.

495
00:21:03,910 --> 00:21:06,040
It all needed to work without
putting trust in a bank,

496
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,250
a government,
or some big corporation.

497
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,290
I want to tell you
how PayPal stole my money

498
00:21:12,380 --> 00:21:13,710
and my girlfriend.

499
00:21:14,210 --> 00:21:16,750
Hoback:
Over the years,
a few key cypherpunks

500
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,300
took stabs at trying
to make this work.

501
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:21,470
It was deemed impossible.

502
00:21:21,550 --> 00:21:25,390
But then, somehow, Satoshi
showed up and figured it out.

503
00:21:25,430 --> 00:21:27,270
Back:
You know, you talk to
a lot of technical people,

504
00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:30,480
and they will say of Bitcoin,
"I could have done that."

505
00:21:31,020 --> 00:21:34,020
I say it's actually much harder
than it looks. (laughs)

506
00:21:34,110 --> 00:21:35,610
I'm just trying to imagine,
like,

507
00:21:35,650 --> 00:21:37,530
who would've been
working around the clock

508
00:21:37,610 --> 00:21:39,440
to introduce something
like Bitcoin...?

509
00:21:39,530 --> 00:21:41,740
So, it could be somebody that
was on the cypherpunks list

510
00:21:41,780 --> 00:21:43,530
that nobody knew
the real name of.

511
00:21:43,610 --> 00:21:45,740
Or it could be somebody younger.

512
00:21:45,780 --> 00:21:49,620
-(plucky music playing)
-(foreboding rumble)

513
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:51,870
Rachel-Rose O'Leary:
I think the question,

514
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:53,830
"Who was Satoshi?"
always kind of creeps in.

515
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,960
It's hard to avoid
that question.

516
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,170
But, I've been told
it was a secret

517
00:21:58,250 --> 00:22:01,760
which was known,
but that was closely guarded.

518
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,260
That there were
people in Bitcoin

519
00:22:03,300 --> 00:22:05,140
who knew who Satoshi is,

520
00:22:05,180 --> 00:22:06,850
but that they
wouldn't reveal it.

521
00:22:06,930 --> 00:22:10,730
Um, and that maybe Satoshi
was a group of people

522
00:22:10,810 --> 00:22:12,390
that is, like, still active
in Bitcoin today.

523
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,810
Hoback:
Rachel-Rose was
a journalist for CoinDesk.

524
00:22:15,860 --> 00:22:17,610
It's one of the most
popular media outlets

525
00:22:17,690 --> 00:22:19,820
covering the whole
crypto space.

526
00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:21,530
Since leaving CoinDesk,

527
00:22:21,610 --> 00:22:23,280
she'd become
a crypto-anarchist,

528
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,870
-which is about using
subversive technology...
-(laughs)

529
00:22:26,950 --> 00:22:28,330
...to dodge government control.

530
00:22:28,370 --> 00:22:30,160
O'Leary: I was hoping
you might have the time

531
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:31,950
to interview Amir
while you're here.

532
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,000
He's, uh, one of
the first five developers

533
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,000
to talk with Satoshi.

534
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,290
-Hoback: Where is he
in Switzerland?
-He's downstairs.

535
00:22:38,340 --> 00:22:40,250
-Hoback: Oh, he's here?
Oh, he lives with you!
-(laughing)

536
00:22:40,340 --> 00:22:42,720
Who just happened
to be her boyfriend.

537
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:43,880
Good to meet you.

538
00:22:44,180 --> 00:22:47,930
Amir Taaki is a British-Iranian
anarchist revolutionary

539
00:22:48,010 --> 00:22:49,810
and one of
the earliest programmers

540
00:22:49,850 --> 00:22:53,230
who worked on Bitcoin
after Satoshi handed it off.

541
00:22:53,310 --> 00:22:54,730
(speaking English)

542
00:22:54,810 --> 00:22:56,350
Hoback:
In terms of the "Fuck the man,

543
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,900
burn down the system"
roots of Bitcoin,

544
00:22:58,980 --> 00:23:01,940
this guy is about
as real as it gets.

545
00:23:02,030 --> 00:23:03,490
Should I call it...

546
00:23:03,570 --> 00:23:05,280
Drug Market Ultra

547
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:07,320
or Death Market Revive?

548
00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:09,030
These days, the Bitcoiners,

549
00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:11,080
they don't really talk
about me anymore.

550
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,540
I'm no longer "in"
with the Bitcoin crowd.

551
00:23:13,580 --> 00:23:15,710
But, part of it is because,

552
00:23:15,750 --> 00:23:17,540
uh, I went to fight in Syria.

553
00:23:17,630 --> 00:23:19,170
(ominous music playing)

554
00:23:19,210 --> 00:23:22,090
And I was like-- I was out
of crypto for two years.

555
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,720
There's a few photos of him
with Kalashnikov,

556
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,430
and it's like, "Bitcoiner
Fights ISIS in Syria."

557
00:23:29,220 --> 00:23:30,510
Amir Taaki:
It was more like three years,

558
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,430
because I was under house arrest
for one year as well.

559
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:34,770
Hoback:
Oh wow. For what?

560
00:23:34,850 --> 00:23:37,100
Investigation of terrorism.

561
00:23:37,900 --> 00:23:40,900
Hoback:
How did you get
involved with Bitcoin?

562
00:23:40,940 --> 00:23:44,570
I remember when I first
got into Bitcoin in 2010.

563
00:23:44,610 --> 00:23:45,900
(dramatic music playing)

564
00:23:45,950 --> 00:23:47,740
I started to, like,
delve a bit deeper,

565
00:23:47,820 --> 00:23:49,740
started to look at the code.

566
00:23:49,820 --> 00:23:51,990
The code itself was very bad,

567
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,830
didn't seem like the guy
who had wrote it

568
00:23:54,910 --> 00:23:57,120
was a professional developer.

569
00:23:57,710 --> 00:24:00,670
But, it wasn't nothing either.

570
00:24:00,750 --> 00:24:02,920
Conceptually, it was,
it was a leap.

571
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,670
It was interesting.

572
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,050
Hoback: Was Satoshi
communicating with you

573
00:24:06,130 --> 00:24:08,340
in the early days at all?

574
00:24:08,430 --> 00:24:09,800
Just on the forums.

575
00:24:10,180 --> 00:24:12,260
Hoback:
Satoshi created
the Bitcoin Talk forum,

576
00:24:12,350 --> 00:24:15,020
where early enthusiasts
could interact with Satoshi

577
00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:17,440
who wrote 575 total posts.

578
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,310
-(mouse wheel scrolling)
-Their posts usually had
a kind of bland academic style.

579
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,570
Unless something
got under Satoshi's skin.

580
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,280
Which Amir succeeded at.

581
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:30,240
Taaki:
When I posted
about WikiLeaks...

582
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,280
Hoback:
WikiLeaks, an online collective

583
00:24:32,330 --> 00:24:34,120
known for publishing
state secrets,

584
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,450
had become the target
of the state.

585
00:24:36,540 --> 00:24:39,460
The US government pressured
Visa, MasterCard,

586
00:24:39,540 --> 00:24:41,540
PayPal to block all donations

587
00:24:41,630 --> 00:24:43,340
and freeze their funds.

588
00:24:43,420 --> 00:24:47,170
So, Amir suggested they start
accepting donations in Bitcoin.

589
00:24:47,550 --> 00:24:49,510
"PC World" picked up the story.

590
00:24:49,590 --> 00:24:53,140
Satoshi was afraid this
rapid adoption by WikiLeaks

591
00:24:53,180 --> 00:24:55,140
would attract
the wrong kind of attention

592
00:24:55,180 --> 00:24:57,140
from three-letter agencies.

593
00:24:57,230 --> 00:24:58,640
One of my favorite quotes,

594
00:24:59,060 --> 00:25:01,400
"WikiLeaks has kicked
the hornet's nest,

595
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,110
and the swarm
is headed towards us."

596
00:25:04,150 --> 00:25:07,190
That's one theory
for Satoshi's departure.

597
00:25:07,940 --> 00:25:09,280
Hoback:
The very next day,

598
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,570
that's when Satoshi made
their last post on the forum.

599
00:25:14,660 --> 00:25:17,830
But, Satoshi quietly
continued communication

600
00:25:17,910 --> 00:25:19,410
with a select few people,

601
00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:22,290
primarily with a guy
named Gavin Andresen,

602
00:25:22,380 --> 00:25:24,750
who had been an early
contributor to Bitcoin.

603
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:26,170
I was kind of looking around

604
00:25:26,250 --> 00:25:28,920
for an interesting
open source software project

605
00:25:29,010 --> 00:25:31,760
to contribute to
and stumbled across Bitcoin,

606
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,390
and then got sucked in.

607
00:25:33,470 --> 00:25:35,510
Satoshi, when he left,

608
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,430
he distributed control

609
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,850
amongst different people
in the community.

610
00:25:39,930 --> 00:25:41,140
Hoback:
Now, Gavin represented

611
00:25:41,190 --> 00:25:43,520
a very different type
of Bitcoiner than Amir.

612
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,110
He wanted to work
with the state, not against it.

613
00:25:47,190 --> 00:25:49,440
He's a normie.
Like a boomer-normie.

614
00:25:49,530 --> 00:25:53,360
Hoback:
But, normalizing Bitcoin
appeared to be Satoshi's goal.

615
00:25:53,410 --> 00:25:56,410
And Gavin looked like he was
from an L.L.Bean catalog.

616
00:25:56,490 --> 00:25:58,370
Every time I tried
to make a change to Bitcoin,

617
00:25:58,450 --> 00:26:01,210
he tried to reject it.
I was like, dude, fuck off!

618
00:26:01,250 --> 00:26:02,670
Hoback:
On the Bitcoin website,

619
00:26:02,710 --> 00:26:06,090
Satoshi even replaced
their own email with Gavin's,

620
00:26:06,170 --> 00:26:08,670
seemingly rendering him
the spokesperson.

621
00:26:08,710 --> 00:26:12,300
So, I-I took over from
the mysterious Satoshi Nakamoto.

622
00:26:12,380 --> 00:26:15,010
Hoback:
But, Satoshi became annoyed
with Gavin's PR efforts

623
00:26:15,090 --> 00:26:16,550
rather quickly, writing,

624
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,390
"I wish you wouldn't
keep talking about me

625
00:26:18,470 --> 00:26:20,560
"as a mysterious
shadowy figure.

626
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,900
The press just turns that
into a pirate currency angle."

627
00:26:23,980 --> 00:26:27,400
Then, Gavin did something that
mortified early Bitcoiners,

628
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,230
prompting Satoshi
to permanently cut ties.

629
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,530
My last email to him was
telling him that I had

630
00:26:33,610 --> 00:26:36,450
agreed to go visit
the folks at the CIA.

631
00:26:36,530 --> 00:26:37,740
♪♪

632
00:26:37,830 --> 00:26:39,410
Taaki:
Gavin Andresen announced

633
00:26:39,450 --> 00:26:43,410
that he was visiting the CIA
to present Bitcoin.

634
00:26:43,460 --> 00:26:45,920
Everybody was
absolutely shocked.

635
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,250
Like, dude,
what are you doing?

636
00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:50,710
And after that,
Satoshi just disappeared.

637
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,840
Nobody heard from him again.

638
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:54,380
Hoback:
Which was good timing

639
00:26:54,430 --> 00:26:58,640
because Bitcoin was about to
find its first real-use case:

640
00:26:59,180 --> 00:27:00,970
buying drugs.

641
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,890
YouTuber:
Something special
came in the mail

642
00:27:03,980 --> 00:27:05,770
just today from Silk Road.

643
00:27:05,810 --> 00:27:09,070
reporter:
Imagine logging on to
an Amazon-like marketplace,

644
00:27:09,150 --> 00:27:11,280
only instead of
household items and shoes,

645
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:12,610
you can buy heroin, meth,

646
00:27:12,690 --> 00:27:15,240
and pretty much any other drug
you can think of.

647
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,320
"Many thanks and much love."

648
00:27:17,410 --> 00:27:19,830
Yeah, I'm pretty sure
there are some, uh,

649
00:27:19,910 --> 00:27:22,040
people interested in drugs,
let's say,

650
00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:23,870
who ended up
being relatively wealthy.

651
00:27:24,330 --> 00:27:27,130
Hoback:
While this sent
Bitcoin's value skyrocketing,

652
00:27:27,170 --> 00:27:29,460
its reputation
was easy pickings.

653
00:27:29,540 --> 00:27:31,250
It's untraceable,
and that makes me think

654
00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:34,050
that the real purpose of
Bitcoin is to use it for drugs

655
00:27:34,130 --> 00:27:36,720
or to buy weapons illegally.

656
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,050
Hoback:
Although anarchists like Amir
were loving it,

657
00:27:40,140 --> 00:27:42,390
the emerging generation
of corporate Bitcoiners

658
00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:46,310
wanted to improve its image,
give Bitcoin a friendlier face.

659
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,650
reporter:
Bitcoin Jesus himself
joins us on the phone.

660
00:27:48,690 --> 00:27:50,980
-Roger, great to have you back.
-Roger Ver (on phone):
Hello, everyone.

661
00:27:51,020 --> 00:27:52,070
Thank you for having me again.

662
00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:54,690
Hoback: Roger Ver
put millions of dollars

663
00:27:54,780 --> 00:27:57,160
into some of
the first Bitcoin startups,

664
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,700
eventually rendering him
a billionaire.

665
00:27:59,780 --> 00:28:02,660
But, when Roger first heard
about Bitcoin,

666
00:28:02,740 --> 00:28:04,200
he had what's best described

667
00:28:04,290 --> 00:28:07,330
as a near-religious
experience.

668
00:28:07,420 --> 00:28:09,420
Got so excited about Bitcoin
and didn't sleep for a week

669
00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:11,040
and literally had to be
taken to the hospital,

670
00:28:11,130 --> 00:28:12,250
and they gave me a sedative.

671
00:28:12,340 --> 00:28:14,800
Anybody here
that's sick of the government

672
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,130
inflating the money supply

673
00:28:16,170 --> 00:28:18,220
to pay to kill people
all around the world?

674
00:28:18,300 --> 00:28:19,590
Stop using their money!

675
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,300
This was like a dream
come true for me.

676
00:28:21,390 --> 00:28:23,510
The-The thing I've been waiting
almost my entire life

677
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:24,930
finally arrived,
and so, of course,

678
00:28:25,020 --> 00:28:26,730
I was gonna be busy
promoting that.

679
00:28:26,810 --> 00:28:29,400
Hoback:
Like a prophet,
Roger spread Bitcoin

680
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,940
to anyone he met,
earning him the title

681
00:28:32,020 --> 00:28:34,070
of Bitcoin Jesus.

682
00:28:34,150 --> 00:28:37,400
(speaking Japanese)

683
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:41,740
I think the world
would just plain work better

684
00:28:41,820 --> 00:28:44,870
and be better for everybody
if there wasn't a ruling class

685
00:28:44,950 --> 00:28:47,000
called the government. Uh...

686
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:48,460
But, I don't want chaos.
I want order

687
00:28:48,540 --> 00:28:50,460
and things to work smoothly and
people to deal with each other

688
00:28:50,540 --> 00:28:52,960
on a voluntary basis to make
the world a more orderly,

689
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:54,500
prosperous place for everybody.

690
00:28:59,220 --> 00:29:02,680
(speaking English)

691
00:29:07,890 --> 00:29:10,940
(dramatic music playing)

692
00:29:11,980 --> 00:29:14,860
Hoback:
Nouriel Roubini
is a famous economist,

693
00:29:14,900 --> 00:29:18,440
best known for predicting
the 2008 financial collapse,

694
00:29:18,530 --> 00:29:21,320
earning him the nickname
Dr. Doom.

695
00:29:21,410 --> 00:29:22,530
I'm a pain for them

696
00:29:22,570 --> 00:29:25,120
because I'm public enemy
number one of crypto.

697
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,450
YouTuber:
Nouriel Roubini.
He can either be

698
00:29:28,540 --> 00:29:30,920
the world's biggest
crypto troll

699
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,580
or an idiot.

700
00:29:32,670 --> 00:29:35,550
Hoback:
He's also known for throwing
wild hot tub parties,

701
00:29:35,630 --> 00:29:38,760
where he looks to have
"10 girls to every one guy."

702
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,970
You know, I usually say
that I'm not, uh, "Dr. Doom,"

703
00:29:42,050 --> 00:29:43,680
I'm Dr. Realist.

704
00:29:44,510 --> 00:29:48,140
Honestly, I believe that
crypto, even blockchain,

705
00:29:48,890 --> 00:29:52,650
is the biggest fad
in financial history.

706
00:29:53,150 --> 00:29:56,520
In crypto, somebody steals
your private key,

707
00:29:56,610 --> 00:29:59,940
your money is gone,
your wealth is gone forever,

708
00:29:59,990 --> 00:30:01,820
for good. It disappears.

709
00:30:01,900 --> 00:30:03,160
reporter:
This guy is out

710
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,620
of $225 million.

711
00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:07,990
Bitcoiner:
Seven and a half
thousand bitcoins

712
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,290
on a hard drive
that I'd thrown out.

713
00:30:10,370 --> 00:30:12,250
If somebody steals
my credit card

714
00:30:12,290 --> 00:30:14,540
or gets my bank deposit,

715
00:30:14,630 --> 00:30:16,500
literally, I make a phone call,

716
00:30:16,590 --> 00:30:19,300
and I'm made
100% whole on that.

717
00:30:19,340 --> 00:30:20,970
We have reasons why

718
00:30:21,010 --> 00:30:23,340
we can monitor
financial transactions.

719
00:30:23,430 --> 00:30:25,720
Some government may abuse it,

720
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,560
but there is no civilized
country in the world,

721
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,430
or government,
is gonna allow crypto.

722
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,440
There will be a crackdown,

723
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,100
and it's all gonna disappear.

724
00:30:35,150 --> 00:30:38,610
This is about
undermining the Federal Reserve.

725
00:30:38,690 --> 00:30:41,990
This is about dis-intermediating
the nation-state.

726
00:30:42,070 --> 00:30:44,450
Satoshi, whoever he or she was,

727
00:30:44,530 --> 00:30:46,120
maybe was an idealist.

728
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,370
Maybe he really cared
about protecting people

729
00:30:49,450 --> 00:30:52,330
from excessive abuse
of power and so on.

730
00:30:52,370 --> 00:30:54,540
The ideological origins

731
00:30:54,620 --> 00:30:58,340
of cryptocurrency, of Bitcoin,
of Satoshi himself,

732
00:30:58,380 --> 00:31:01,090
unequivocally anti nation-state

733
00:31:01,170 --> 00:31:03,090
and pro human freedom.

734
00:31:03,550 --> 00:31:05,640
Hoback:
But, they had a problem.

735
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,680
While Satoshi understood
that Bitcoin

736
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,560
wasn't actually anonymous,
just about everyone else...

737
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,020
They didn't realize
it was traceable.

738
00:31:13,100 --> 00:31:15,690
It wasn't until
there was analysis done,

739
00:31:15,730 --> 00:31:19,020
cryptographers looking into it
started to see, actually,

740
00:31:19,110 --> 00:31:20,190
there's links.

741
00:31:20,270 --> 00:31:21,860
There's like a trail
on the blockchain

742
00:31:21,940 --> 00:31:22,940
that we can actually map.

743
00:31:23,030 --> 00:31:24,530
Hoback:
So, if someone who stole

744
00:31:24,570 --> 00:31:26,450
a bunch of Bitcoin
tries to cash out,

745
00:31:26,530 --> 00:31:28,030
you can see that
their Bitcoin wallet

746
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:29,830
contains the stolen funds.

747
00:31:29,870 --> 00:31:33,410
-(pop, yelling, banging)
-Which is how people doing
illegal shit got caught.

748
00:31:33,500 --> 00:31:35,670
Today, the FBI
successfully seized

749
00:31:35,750 --> 00:31:38,710
criminal proceeds
from a Bitcoin wallet.

750
00:31:38,750 --> 00:31:39,880
♪♪

751
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,800
Hoback:
So, Amir gathered
some hackers together

752
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,300
in a sketchy squad

753
00:31:43,380 --> 00:31:45,630
to try and solve
Bitcoin's privacy problem.

754
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,220
They hired a young kid
as their lead programmer.

755
00:31:48,260 --> 00:31:50,180
His name was Peter Todd.

756
00:31:50,220 --> 00:31:52,720
Peter Todd was living with us.

757
00:31:52,810 --> 00:31:55,060
You know,
that's how I got to know him.

758
00:31:55,100 --> 00:31:59,230
We put Peter Todd as the
chief scientist of our project

759
00:31:59,270 --> 00:32:01,650
to put him in opposition
to Gavin Andresen.

760
00:32:01,730 --> 00:32:02,690
♪♪

761
00:32:02,780 --> 00:32:05,400
You know, we're sitting in
a freezing cold room

762
00:32:05,490 --> 00:32:08,240
because it's an abandoned
building with no heat.

763
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,030
And it's very unique.

764
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:11,330
But, equally though,

765
00:32:11,450 --> 00:32:14,040
you get people who know
what they're talking about.

766
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,460
You need to give people space to
actually work on these issues.

767
00:32:17,540 --> 00:32:20,540
-(birds chirping)
-(intriguing music playing)

768
00:32:20,590 --> 00:32:22,340
Hoback:
Nine years later,

769
00:32:22,420 --> 00:32:24,630
Peter was still trying
to solve these issues.

770
00:32:25,470 --> 00:32:27,880
Peter Todd:
There's a lot of people who
would like to see cash go away

771
00:32:27,930 --> 00:32:30,760
and like see your ability to
transact anonymously disappear.

772
00:32:30,850 --> 00:32:33,720
I mean, this,
this is a very dangerous thing.

773
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,140
This needs to be treated
as a human rights issue.

774
00:32:38,230 --> 00:32:39,730
Hoback:
How'd you get into caving?

775
00:32:39,810 --> 00:32:42,020
Todd:
There was something called
the Toronto Caving Group.

776
00:32:42,650 --> 00:32:45,400
Didn't really pick the best
place to live for good caves.

777
00:32:47,610 --> 00:32:49,820
Here, you can actually see, uh,

778
00:32:49,910 --> 00:32:52,950
stalactites and stalagmites
sort of forming a column.

779
00:32:52,990 --> 00:32:56,660
So, you know this thing hasn't
moved for probably 30, 40 years.

780
00:32:56,750 --> 00:32:58,290
It's unlikely it'll collapse
on our heads,

781
00:32:58,370 --> 00:33:00,330
but one day, it will. (sighs)

782
00:33:00,420 --> 00:33:01,750
Hoback:
Tell me about your endeavors

783
00:33:01,830 --> 00:33:04,250
to try to make
a digital currency yourself.

784
00:33:04,340 --> 00:33:06,380
Well, you know,

785
00:33:06,460 --> 00:33:08,630
in, like, the mid-2000s,

786
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,590
I was off getting
a fine arts degree.

787
00:33:12,220 --> 00:33:16,350
Started working halftime,
like, 2007, full-time in 2008,

788
00:33:16,430 --> 00:33:19,270
and I finally kinda
finished it in sort of 2009,

789
00:33:19,350 --> 00:33:21,150
and then went on
to start doing physics.

790
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,400
Hoback:
So, have people suspected you
of being Satoshi at any point?

791
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,110
(Peter Todd speaking)

792
00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:31,660
Hoback:
Why do they, uh,
think you're behind it?

793
00:33:32,530 --> 00:33:36,120
(Todd speaking)

794
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,910
Hoback:
It was back in 2001,

795
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,330
when Peter Todd,
a self-taught coder,

796
00:33:41,370 --> 00:33:44,000
first contacted Adam Back.

797
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,000
He was only 15 at the time,

798
00:33:46,090 --> 00:33:47,840
and, like some sort of savant,

799
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,050
he already had a deep
understanding of digital cash.

800
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,180
You almost learned how to code
before you learned how to read.

801
00:33:54,220 --> 00:33:55,180
Yep.

802
00:33:55,260 --> 00:33:56,680
That's wild.

803
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,850
The logic of coding
seemed pretty obvious to me.

804
00:33:58,930 --> 00:34:01,730
Were you just interested in
those issues in high school?

805
00:34:01,810 --> 00:34:04,480
Todd:
I happened to be
a young libertarian,

806
00:34:05,610 --> 00:34:07,730
and it was pretty obvious
to me that

807
00:34:07,820 --> 00:34:10,860
control of money
is a very big problem

808
00:34:10,950 --> 00:34:12,030
for freedom of speech.

809
00:34:12,070 --> 00:34:15,910
We should find a way to
have decentralized banking.

810
00:34:16,620 --> 00:34:18,240
Hoback:
Over the years,
Peter became

811
00:34:18,330 --> 00:34:20,710
an increasingly
controversial figure.

812
00:34:20,790 --> 00:34:23,670
The war on cash is the thing
that has to be stopped.

813
00:34:23,710 --> 00:34:25,670
And, frankly, everyone
in this audience,

814
00:34:25,710 --> 00:34:28,630
if you don't use cash
to go pay regularly,

815
00:34:28,710 --> 00:34:31,260
I don't, I don't respect you
as a Bitcoiner.

816
00:34:31,340 --> 00:34:32,550
Like, that's just a fact.

817
00:34:32,630 --> 00:34:34,720
If you're using credit
every single day, fuck you.

818
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,760
(applause)

819
00:34:36,850 --> 00:34:39,850
Hoback:
Let's just say his takes
weren't always appreciated.

820
00:34:39,890 --> 00:34:41,850
Todd: One day,
Bitcoin will go to zero.

821
00:34:41,890 --> 00:34:43,350
You know,
it will eventually fail,

822
00:34:43,390 --> 00:34:44,560
like everything else.

823
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,610
Peter will always try
to disagree with you.

824
00:34:46,690 --> 00:34:49,730
He's the contrarian
of contrarians.

825
00:34:49,780 --> 00:34:51,860
Todd: You know,
the people who really know...

826
00:34:52,450 --> 00:34:54,320
know how this stuff works,
I think realize

827
00:34:54,410 --> 00:34:56,700
that anyone competent enough
to go do Bitcoin

828
00:34:56,740 --> 00:34:59,330
probably would be competent
enough to not leave any traces.

829
00:34:59,910 --> 00:35:03,000
Hoback:
I mean, Satoshi left
a lot of digital history.

830
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,000
Todd:
Yeah, but digital history
doesn't mean much, you know?

831
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,090
Doesn't necessarily give you
any insight into who they were.

832
00:35:09,170 --> 00:35:10,760
♪♪

833
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,590
Remember, things that
look like mistakes

834
00:35:12,670 --> 00:35:14,430
can be intentionally
misleading.

835
00:35:15,260 --> 00:35:18,350
If I were Satoshi, I would have
destroyed my ability

836
00:35:18,430 --> 00:35:20,520
to go prove I was Satoshi.

837
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,810
Because then,
you'd never be tempted.

838
00:35:25,940 --> 00:35:28,190
Hoback: But, uh,
you're-you're not Satoshi?

839
00:35:29,020 --> 00:35:30,020
Oh, no, I am Satoshi.

840
00:35:30,110 --> 00:35:31,860
-I'm Satoshi Nakamoto.
-(Hoback laughs)

841
00:35:31,940 --> 00:35:34,150
-Hoback: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We're all Satoshi.
-Todd: Yep.

842
00:35:36,570 --> 00:35:39,830
(intriguing music playing)

843
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,790
-(church bell ringing)
-Todd: It's a monkey, I guess.

844
00:35:46,330 --> 00:35:48,840
-Back: Yep.
-Could be better.

845
00:35:50,340 --> 00:35:51,920
Hoback:
How'd you guys meet?

846
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,050
Online first.

847
00:35:53,130 --> 00:35:56,930
I got more actively interested
in Bitcoin in 2013.

848
00:35:56,970 --> 00:35:59,640
Had the feeling that I don't
understand how this works.

849
00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:00,810
There are people
developing it,

850
00:36:00,850 --> 00:36:02,180
maybe I can find out
where they hang out.

851
00:36:02,350 --> 00:36:04,640
Hoback:
So, still trying to understand
how Bitcoin works,

852
00:36:04,730 --> 00:36:05,980
Adam heads over
to the forum

853
00:36:06,060 --> 00:36:09,270
and, for the first time ever,
makes some posts.

854
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:10,480
A lot of posts.

855
00:36:10,570 --> 00:36:12,780
Trying to prove his relevance

856
00:36:12,820 --> 00:36:15,070
and his apparent ignorance.

857
00:36:15,610 --> 00:36:18,070
I was a guy
who had a fine arts degree.

858
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,950
Yet, you know,
I still understood the system
better than he did.

859
00:36:20,990 --> 00:36:23,660
Hoback:
So, to clear things up,
Adam started a thread,

860
00:36:23,750 --> 00:36:26,000
"Who is this annoying
Adam Back guy?"

861
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,080
Of course, the Bitcoiners
knew who he was.

862
00:36:28,170 --> 00:36:30,670
I knew who you were.
I knew you invented Hashcash.

863
00:36:30,710 --> 00:36:32,380
And here you pop up,
and you were clueless.

864
00:36:32,460 --> 00:36:36,010
Hoback:
And they just thought
he was, well, pretending.

865
00:36:36,050 --> 00:36:37,970
Best evidence of
him being Satoshi.

866
00:36:38,010 --> 00:36:40,140
-Back: Of not being Satoshi.
-Todd: Being Satoshi.

867
00:36:40,180 --> 00:36:42,350
-Uh--
-Only Satoshi would go
to such great lengths

868
00:36:42,390 --> 00:36:44,560
to go and make sure no one
thought they were Satoshi.

869
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,730
By the way,
everyone's Satoshi.

870
00:36:46,810 --> 00:36:49,690
Yeah, except for me.
I'm not Satoshi. (laughs)

871
00:36:49,770 --> 00:36:52,190
Hoback:
But the most suspicious thing

872
00:36:52,270 --> 00:36:54,690
was the timing of
his appearance on the forums.

873
00:36:54,780 --> 00:36:56,780
The same day Adam registered,

874
00:36:56,860 --> 00:37:00,700
a researcher discovered
a bug in Bitcoin's code.

875
00:37:00,740 --> 00:37:03,530
It enabled them to see
how much Satoshi had mined.

876
00:37:03,620 --> 00:37:06,450
-About a million Bitcoin.
-(whooshing)

877
00:37:06,540 --> 00:37:08,580
Adam seemed concerned, writing,

878
00:37:08,660 --> 00:37:11,210
"Perhaps we're forced
to protect him."

879
00:37:11,250 --> 00:37:12,380
And he had a plan.

880
00:37:12,460 --> 00:37:15,050
And I had a potential way
to improve Bitcoin's privacy...

881
00:37:15,130 --> 00:37:18,840
Hoback:
He wanted to make
Bitcoin truly anonymous.

882
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,470
Which would also mean
Satoshi could spend their stash

883
00:37:22,550 --> 00:37:23,810
without anyone knowing.

884
00:37:23,890 --> 00:37:25,390
Back:
So, I talked to developers

885
00:37:25,470 --> 00:37:28,100
about how do--
how do you achieve this.

886
00:37:28,390 --> 00:37:30,730
Hoback:
And Adam's coming-out party
on the forums

887
00:37:30,770 --> 00:37:32,940
positioned him
so that within a year,

888
00:37:33,020 --> 00:37:34,900
he could start Blockstream.

889
00:37:34,980 --> 00:37:36,230
Because Bitcoin's problems,

890
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,320
they just couldn't be solved
in a squad,

891
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,910
like what Peter and Amir
had attempted a year earlier.

892
00:37:40,990 --> 00:37:42,570
It required serious funding.

893
00:37:42,620 --> 00:37:44,200
Back:
It's a big undertaking.

894
00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:45,030
So, it'd need a company,

895
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:46,410
it needs to employ
lots of people.

896
00:37:46,540 --> 00:37:49,410
Hoback:
Blockstream could do what
Satoshi couldn't.

897
00:37:49,500 --> 00:37:51,290
Raise money, build a huge team,

898
00:37:51,370 --> 00:37:54,420
and solve Bitcoin's
technical problems.

899
00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:57,340
You could say Blockstream is
a kind of corporate Satoshi?

900
00:37:57,420 --> 00:38:01,430
-Mm-hmm.
-Like, how did he become
the head of the company

901
00:38:01,510 --> 00:38:03,590
that became
the stewards of Bitcoin?

902
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:04,930
Uh, it's a good question.

903
00:38:05,010 --> 00:38:08,680
He kind of, uh, shows up
and very quickly

904
00:38:08,770 --> 00:38:11,270
becomes integrated
into the Bitcoin community.

905
00:38:11,310 --> 00:38:14,980
Hoback:
Where he knew to pursue
the right kind of talent.

906
00:38:15,060 --> 00:38:16,770
So, Adam,
when you started Blockstream,

907
00:38:16,820 --> 00:38:18,440
did you try
to get Peter on board?

908
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,280
-Well, kinda intentionally not.
-Yeah.

909
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,740
We talked about saying it would
actually be much better

910
00:38:23,780 --> 00:38:26,030
-if I didn't work
for Blockstream.
-Back: Mm-hmm.

911
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,370
'Cause it's better
if Blockstream
doesn't have everyone.

912
00:38:28,450 --> 00:38:29,950
♪♪

913
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,500
Hoback:
While Peter Todd decided
not to work at Blockstream,

914
00:38:32,580 --> 00:38:35,590
his friend Greg Maxwell did.

915
00:38:35,630 --> 00:38:36,790
We're building infrastructure

916
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,300
that Bitcoin needs
going forward.

917
00:38:38,380 --> 00:38:40,970
Hoback:
In fact, Greg founded
the company with Adam.

918
00:38:41,050 --> 00:38:43,220
O'Leary:
People like Greg Maxwell,

919
00:38:43,300 --> 00:38:45,300
they were considered
the, the thought leaders.

920
00:38:45,390 --> 00:38:47,760
Hoback:
Greg doesn't do interviews
anymore, right?

921
00:38:47,810 --> 00:38:51,850
Getting him to come
out of his, uh, home is, uh...

922
00:38:52,310 --> 00:38:55,900
Hoback:
...seemingly off the table,
with Greg writing to me,

923
00:38:56,150 --> 00:38:58,730
"I'm pretty exhausted
from years of harassment

924
00:38:58,820 --> 00:39:00,650
"driven by conspiracy theories.

925
00:39:00,690 --> 00:39:02,950
I feel like I've given enough."

926
00:39:04,030 --> 00:39:06,820
So, do you think
they were working with Satoshi?

927
00:39:06,870 --> 00:39:09,330
It was very mysterious.
Uh, th-there is the question

928
00:39:09,370 --> 00:39:11,500
of whether Adam Back is Satoshi.

929
00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:13,160
Hoback:
There's been a lot of debate

930
00:39:13,250 --> 00:39:16,790
over which of these cypherpunks
is most likely to be Satoshi.

931
00:39:16,830 --> 00:39:19,710
Hal Finney received
the first Bitcoin transaction,

932
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,050
but he died of Lou Gehrig's
disease in 2014.

933
00:39:23,470 --> 00:39:24,800
Well, sort of.

934
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,300
His head is frozen.

935
00:39:26,340 --> 00:39:28,100
So, if he's Satoshi,

936
00:39:28,180 --> 00:39:30,010
you'd probably have
to solve cryonics

937
00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:32,020
to get the key
that's stored in his head.

938
00:39:32,060 --> 00:39:34,600
But, there were some problems
with this theory.

939
00:39:34,690 --> 00:39:38,190
Satoshi's code bears zero
resemblance to Hal Finney's.

940
00:39:38,230 --> 00:39:40,860
-(shutter snaps)
-And Hal was photographed
in a 10-mile race,

941
00:39:40,940 --> 00:39:44,150
while Satoshi was
actively emailing with someone.

942
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,070
In 2015, The New York Times
pointed to Nick Szabo,

943
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,370
a reclusive cypherpunk
who envisioned something

944
00:39:50,410 --> 00:39:51,740
pretty similar to Bitcoin.

945
00:39:51,830 --> 00:39:54,330
Would you ever be
open to, to doing,

946
00:39:54,410 --> 00:39:56,870
like, an interview on camera
about all of that?

947
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:58,250
The key piece of evidence,

948
00:39:58,330 --> 00:40:00,380
he changed the date
of a blog entry,

949
00:40:00,420 --> 00:40:02,710
presumably so it would seem
like he came up

950
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,300
with this idea after Bitcoin.

951
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,300
Thing is, he'd actually
announced months earlier

952
00:40:08,390 --> 00:40:11,140
that he'd be doing reruns
of his blog favorite entries,

953
00:40:11,220 --> 00:40:14,230
making this piece of evidence
look a lot less suspicious.

954
00:40:14,270 --> 00:40:16,480
(speaking English)

955
00:40:17,940 --> 00:40:19,400
-(Hoback laughs)
-(room chatter)

956
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,400
Hoback:
There's Wei Dai,
who is a famous cryptographer.

957
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,190
He claims there are no real
photos of him on the internet.

958
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:27,070
But, he did speculate
that Satoshi

959
00:40:27,110 --> 00:40:29,240
must have been someone
with energy and time

960
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,370
that isn't obligated to publish
papers under their real name.

961
00:40:32,410 --> 00:40:34,540
There's Len Sassaman,
David Chaum, Dorian Nakamoto...

962
00:40:34,580 --> 00:40:37,580
-(names overlapping,
echoing over each other)
-(mouse clicking)

963
00:40:37,670 --> 00:40:39,170
The list goes on and on.

964
00:40:39,250 --> 00:40:41,000
I am Satoshi!

965
00:40:41,090 --> 00:40:41,960
Okay!

966
00:40:42,250 --> 00:40:45,300
The biggest critic of crypto
is Satoshi himself.

967
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,930
Hoback:
And while we could pick apart
each of these theories,

968
00:40:48,970 --> 00:40:51,010
the evidence pointing
in Adam's direction

969
00:40:51,100 --> 00:40:53,100
was a lot harder
to poke holes in.

970
00:40:53,140 --> 00:40:55,350
So, we're gonna focus on that.

971
00:40:55,430 --> 00:40:57,190
Though for a long time,
people hadn't really

972
00:40:57,270 --> 00:40:59,770
considered him a suspect.
And that's because

973
00:40:59,850 --> 00:41:01,690
he wasn't just cited
in the white paper.

974
00:41:01,770 --> 00:41:05,360
He was the only person called
out by name in the body of it.

975
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,530
But, was Satoshi simply
hiding in plain sight?

976
00:41:08,610 --> 00:41:10,870
-(arrow slams)
-Back: I've never done it
before, so...

977
00:41:10,950 --> 00:41:13,240
-Okay. It's 99%.
-(laughs) It's just one--
Just this one hand, right?

978
00:41:13,330 --> 00:41:15,120
Hoback:
You see, like Satoshi,

979
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,000
he writes in
a typically measured style

980
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:18,500
with similar spelling choices.

981
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,380
Now, Adam also claims that
he didn't really get involved

982
00:41:22,460 --> 00:41:24,880
until four years
after the launch of Bitcoin.

983
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,090
In 2013, I felt like, you know,

984
00:41:27,170 --> 00:41:28,510
the embarrassing late guy,

985
00:41:28,590 --> 00:41:31,970
given that I should've known
better at the beginning, right?

986
00:41:32,010 --> 00:41:33,390
(laughs) And, uh...

987
00:41:33,470 --> 00:41:34,760
Hoback:
Thing is,

988
00:41:34,850 --> 00:41:36,140
back in 2011,

989
00:41:36,180 --> 00:41:38,100
you can see he was
on a mailing list,

990
00:41:38,180 --> 00:41:40,190
openly defending Bitcoin,

991
00:41:40,270 --> 00:41:43,730
and sharing complex insights
into Bitcoin's expansion.

992
00:41:43,820 --> 00:41:46,320
Weirder still, in 2012,

993
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,610
he began making revisions
to Bitcoin's Wikipedia page,

994
00:41:50,610 --> 00:41:53,780
eventually restoring
the section about Satoshi...

995
00:41:54,700 --> 00:41:57,700
Just, like, tried to right
a slight historical wrong there.

996
00:41:57,790 --> 00:42:01,000
-Hoback: ...even adding
possible suspects.
-(shoots)

997
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,540
Just leaving out his own name.

998
00:42:05,590 --> 00:42:06,630
(shoots arrow)

999
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,050
How much is
Satoshi worth these days?

1000
00:42:10,130 --> 00:42:13,140
I don't know. Um, I mean,
even the number of coins

1001
00:42:13,220 --> 00:42:15,180
that he might have
is a bit speculative.

1002
00:42:15,260 --> 00:42:17,890
If they had a million coins,

1003
00:42:17,970 --> 00:42:19,930
whoever Satoshi is
would technically have

1004
00:42:20,020 --> 00:42:23,060
a huge amount of influence
if it becomes the,

1005
00:42:23,150 --> 00:42:25,360
-the new global currency, right?
-Back: Right.

1006
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,320
Hoback:
That would mean that
whoever Satoshi is

1007
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,610
might be one of the most
powerful people in the world.

1008
00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:35,240
♪♪

1009
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,080
Even the slightest suggestion

1010
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,160
that Satoshi had access
to their coins

1011
00:42:39,250 --> 00:42:41,460
had the power
to tumble markets.

1012
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,210
Market fear has begun
to overtake rationality.

1013
00:42:46,290 --> 00:42:49,050
Hoback: But selling
a million coins all at once?

1014
00:42:49,090 --> 00:42:51,090
If these coins were dumped...

1015
00:42:51,170 --> 00:42:53,630
Hoback:
That could kill Bitcoin.

1016
00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:56,180
-(zaps)
-And as the stakes grew,

1017
00:42:56,220 --> 00:42:59,220
it kinda mattered
if Satoshi still had access.

1018
00:42:59,270 --> 00:43:01,140
If you were Satoshi,
where would you store

1019
00:43:01,230 --> 00:43:03,020
your private key
to the, uh, trove?

1020
00:43:03,060 --> 00:43:05,400
I don't know. That's a lot
of bitcoins, isn't it?

1021
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:06,360
(Hoback laughs)

1022
00:43:06,810 --> 00:43:09,690
Hoback:
What do you think Satoshi
might've done with that key?

1023
00:43:09,730 --> 00:43:11,650
I don't know. I mean,

1024
00:43:11,740 --> 00:43:15,240
some people speculate that
he might've deleted them.

1025
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,620
But, of course, we don't know--
we wouldn't know, right?

1026
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:19,990
Hoback:
But, we could've known.

1027
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:21,370
You see, there's a way

1028
00:43:21,450 --> 00:43:24,120
to verifiably destroy
your bitcoins.

1029
00:43:24,210 --> 00:43:26,250
It's called burning the coins,

1030
00:43:26,290 --> 00:43:29,090
and it's done in a public way
for all to see...

1031
00:43:29,130 --> 00:43:31,710
-(bursting)
-...on the blockchain.

1032
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:33,880
♪♪

1033
00:43:33,930 --> 00:43:35,430
Bitcoiner:
You could burn all the coins

1034
00:43:35,470 --> 00:43:38,760
because that would remove the
small uncertainty that exists.

1035
00:43:38,810 --> 00:43:41,680
-Hoback: But,
Satoshi didn't do this.
-(whooshing)

1036
00:43:41,770 --> 00:43:45,100
Meaning they very well
might still have access.

1037
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,440
If they kept that stuff,
there'd be a lot of temptation

1038
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:49,650
to spend some of it.

1039
00:43:50,150 --> 00:43:51,650
Hoback:
So, Satoshi had to weigh
the temptation

1040
00:43:51,730 --> 00:43:53,950
of becoming
the richest person on Earth

1041
00:43:54,030 --> 00:43:55,410
against the possibility

1042
00:43:55,490 --> 00:43:57,700
that it would
derail their invention.

1043
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,200
Do you think it'll ever
be known who Satoshi is?

1044
00:44:03,290 --> 00:44:04,580
Back:
I don't think so, no.

1045
00:44:04,620 --> 00:44:06,330
I mean, just-just because
all of the people

1046
00:44:06,420 --> 00:44:09,250
that have been identified

1047
00:44:09,340 --> 00:44:11,630
have various reasons,
believable reasons,

1048
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:13,340
why it's probably not them.

1049
00:44:13,420 --> 00:44:14,840
And you know
what the list is, right?

1050
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,760
-It's been circulated
a million times.
-Right. Right.

1051
00:44:18,930 --> 00:44:20,680
Hoback:
Wei Dai is on the list.

1052
00:44:21,140 --> 00:44:24,680
Um, Nick Szabo is on the list.
Hal Finney.

1053
00:44:24,770 --> 00:44:26,440
You're on the list.
And then,

1054
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,810
maybe mysterious...
mysterious other person.

1055
00:44:29,860 --> 00:44:32,360
-Right.
-Um...

1056
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,150
Well, I thought
you might think I'm Satoshi,

1057
00:44:35,190 --> 00:44:37,990
and I don't want that
to be on the record, really.

1058
00:44:38,070 --> 00:44:39,530
(both laugh)

1059
00:44:39,620 --> 00:44:41,990
-I mean, you're on
the list of suspects, right?
-Yeah, yeah,

1060
00:44:42,030 --> 00:44:43,330
but, uh, you know,

1061
00:44:43,410 --> 00:44:45,330
I was interested for you,
personally, to understand

1062
00:44:45,410 --> 00:44:48,670
that really-really,
I'm not, you know? Yeah.

1063
00:44:51,210 --> 00:44:53,340
-(breeze blowing)
-(birds chirping)

1064
00:44:53,420 --> 00:44:55,510
Hoback:
It seemed to me that,
at a minimum,

1065
00:44:55,590 --> 00:44:58,340
Adam was more involved
than he was letting on.

1066
00:44:58,380 --> 00:45:01,640
(intriguing music playing)

1067
00:45:03,720 --> 00:45:06,480
Meanwhile, Blockstream's
Bitcoin ambassador

1068
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,600
was trying to make Bitcoin
the new global standard.

1069
00:45:09,690 --> 00:45:12,190
Mow:
This is a pivotal
time with Bitcoin,

1070
00:45:12,230 --> 00:45:13,650
and we have to push
the advantage we have now.

1071
00:45:13,690 --> 00:45:17,070
I have an in in Korea,
but if you wanna do Vietnam...

1072
00:45:17,150 --> 00:45:18,240
Michelle Phan:
Wow... Yeah!

1073
00:45:18,450 --> 00:45:20,530
-Fist bump... I'm down.
-Are you down? Okay!

1074
00:45:20,620 --> 00:45:21,570
Alright, I'm down, too.

1075
00:45:21,820 --> 00:45:24,120
Hoback:
Samson's young new ally
just happened to be

1076
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,540
one of YouTube's
biggest beauty influencers.

1077
00:45:26,580 --> 00:45:29,540
Now, she was advising
on more than just makeup.

1078
00:45:29,620 --> 00:45:32,130
With Bitcoin,
you can buy it in smaller units.

1079
00:45:32,210 --> 00:45:36,130
There's 100 million satoshis
in one bitcoin.

1080
00:45:36,210 --> 00:45:38,170
Nothing ever infinitely goes up,

1081
00:45:38,220 --> 00:45:39,340
but Bitcoin will.

1082
00:45:39,590 --> 00:45:41,340
I feel like California
should become its own country

1083
00:45:41,430 --> 00:45:42,970
and adopt Bitcoin.
In my humble opinion.

1084
00:45:43,050 --> 00:45:45,720
It's like, what, the fourth
largest GDP right, in the world?

1085
00:45:45,770 --> 00:45:46,770
Yeah.

1086
00:45:46,850 --> 00:45:48,730
Hoback:
They were headed
to a political function

1087
00:45:48,770 --> 00:45:49,770
for Andrew Yang...

1088
00:45:49,850 --> 00:45:50,980
Andrew Yang:
I'm Andrew Yang,

1089
00:45:51,060 --> 00:45:53,860
and I'm running for president
as a Democrat in 2020.

1090
00:45:54,230 --> 00:45:57,110
Hoback:
...who kinda brought the idea
of universal basic income

1091
00:45:57,190 --> 00:45:58,690
into the mainstream.

1092
00:45:58,780 --> 00:46:01,910
-So, we gotta talk to Andrew
about UBI. Your UBI!
-Yeah.

1093
00:46:01,990 --> 00:46:04,910
Yes,
the universal Bitcoin income.

1094
00:46:04,990 --> 00:46:07,410
Not universal basic income.
We don't want basic shit.

1095
00:46:07,450 --> 00:46:08,910
-We want Bitcoin.
-Yeah, we're not basic.

1096
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:10,620
Thank you. Okay, here we are.

1097
00:46:10,710 --> 00:46:13,250
Hoback:
So, these two,
they're what's known as

1098
00:46:13,290 --> 00:46:16,340
Bitcoin maximalists,
or Maxi for short.

1099
00:46:16,420 --> 00:46:18,670
I'm a proud
Bitcoin Maxi now.

1100
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:19,800
I'm toxic as fuck.

1101
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,760
-(thunder cracks)
-Hoback: Does their profile pic

1102
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:23,850
have lasers
coming out of their eyes?

1103
00:46:23,930 --> 00:46:25,180
Usually means they're a Maxi.

1104
00:46:25,260 --> 00:46:27,930
It was a system
of monetary belief.

1105
00:46:28,020 --> 00:46:29,680
Welcome to the new religion.

1106
00:46:29,770 --> 00:46:33,230
Hoback:
Faith that Bitcoin could fix
all the problems in the world.

1107
00:46:33,310 --> 00:46:34,610
Bitcoin fixes everything!

1108
00:46:34,690 --> 00:46:37,150
Hoback:
And that the US dollar
was on its way out.

1109
00:46:37,230 --> 00:46:38,650
Okay, here's a $10 bill.

1110
00:46:38,740 --> 00:46:41,450
-This is garbage.
This is garbage.
-(ripping)

1111
00:46:41,530 --> 00:46:43,910
Hoback:
Which could be
pretty fucking annoying.

1112
00:46:43,950 --> 00:46:47,540
But, ultimately, their goal
was to orange pill the world.

1113
00:46:47,620 --> 00:46:50,000
Phan: We're gonna try
and orange pill him.

1114
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:51,620
Yang:
Oh my gosh! Hey, Michelle!

1115
00:46:51,710 --> 00:46:54,460
We have a real life
Asian-American supermodel
and activist.

1116
00:46:54,500 --> 00:46:57,000
Hoback:
Their tactics could
be pretty shameless.

1117
00:46:57,090 --> 00:46:58,880
-Andrew,
nice to meet you.
-Oh, nice to meet you, too.

1118
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:00,760
This guy's changing the world.
I want you to meet him.

1119
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,470
I think he's really important
for you to talk to.

1120
00:47:02,550 --> 00:47:04,090
Oh, no, I'm super pumped
about this. See this magic?

1121
00:47:04,140 --> 00:47:07,430
You see this magic in real time?
You wanna say a couple words?

1122
00:47:07,510 --> 00:47:11,230
Bitcoin is the most
important crypto out there.

1123
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,270
Yang: Holy cow!

1124
00:47:31,790 --> 00:47:34,330
-Let's talk, uh, more deeply.
-Mow: Yeah!

1125
00:47:34,370 --> 00:47:36,880
What's your info? What's
the best way to be in touch?

1126
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,590
Many of these utopian movements
start by a bunch of idealists.

1127
00:47:40,670 --> 00:47:43,260
But then, they're captured
by a bunch of greedy people,

1128
00:47:43,340 --> 00:47:44,680
they become a cult,

1129
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:47,100
and the people and the system
becomes like a religion.

1130
00:47:47,180 --> 00:47:48,300
They become fanatic.

1131
00:47:48,390 --> 00:47:50,310
And then, all these utopias,
in due time,

1132
00:47:50,390 --> 00:47:53,270
they just disappear
in the dustbin of history.

1133
00:47:53,350 --> 00:47:55,230
And that's what's
gonna happen with crypto.

1134
00:47:55,310 --> 00:47:56,400
♪♪

1135
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,360
Hoback:
Samson thought he could use
his own right hand.

1136
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:01,030
Someone with connections.

1137
00:48:01,570 --> 00:48:04,200
Enter the Prince of Serbia.

1138
00:48:04,740 --> 00:48:06,490
Prince Philip:
2020, that's when
it really clicked.

1139
00:48:06,570 --> 00:48:09,580
There are synergies
between Bitcoin and monarchies.

1140
00:48:09,660 --> 00:48:11,450
-I'm a Maxi now.
-(laughter, indistinct chatter)

1141
00:48:11,540 --> 00:48:13,040
That's my great-grandfather.

1142
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:14,580
This is my great-
great-grandfather.

1143
00:48:14,660 --> 00:48:17,380
Hoback:
I see. When do you get
your painting in here?

1144
00:48:17,420 --> 00:48:19,210
-Who knows?
-(laughter)

1145
00:48:19,250 --> 00:48:20,630
He has the perfect skill set

1146
00:48:20,710 --> 00:48:24,220
to contact, uh,
diplomats, presidents.

1147
00:48:24,300 --> 00:48:25,970
There's a lot of
big family network

1148
00:48:26,050 --> 00:48:28,510
to-to-to work through.
That opens a lot of doors.

1149
00:48:28,550 --> 00:48:30,050
Hoback:
Not that long ago,

1150
00:48:30,100 --> 00:48:33,140
Montenegro and Serbia used
to be part of the same country.

1151
00:48:33,220 --> 00:48:36,390
And Prince Philip's family
still had a lot of influence.

1152
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:38,350
Prince Philip:
Prime Minister Spaji.

1153
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,520
In terms of where he's at
with Bitcoin,

1154
00:48:40,570 --> 00:48:42,400
could be the start of
a good relationship with him

1155
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,490
to get things moving
in this country.

1156
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:48,450
I'm a big fan of Bitcoin,
obviously,

1157
00:48:48,530 --> 00:48:51,240
and of the technology
that Bitcoin brought.

1158
00:48:51,330 --> 00:48:53,410
Politically,
it's, it's a difficult sell.

1159
00:48:53,490 --> 00:48:55,410
You have to think about
all kinds of risks.

1160
00:48:55,500 --> 00:48:58,580
I think the government
shouldn't invest in Bitcoin.

1161
00:48:58,670 --> 00:49:00,290
If you're risk-averse,
you think the government

1162
00:49:00,380 --> 00:49:01,960
should not hold it.
That's fine.

1163
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,130
But, in the event
that fiat currencies collapse,

1164
00:49:05,210 --> 00:49:07,680
everyone will rush into Bitcoin.
So, what we're trying to do

1165
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:09,640
is get parallel systems
in place.

1166
00:49:09,720 --> 00:49:12,430
Dollars, Bitcoin, pesos,
Bitcoin, yen, Bitcoin.

1167
00:49:12,510 --> 00:49:14,060
We don't have our own currency.

1168
00:49:14,100 --> 00:49:17,940
We're using euros without
being able to print euros.

1169
00:49:18,020 --> 00:49:20,440
And that's not fair.
You know, that's not cool.

1170
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,610
Maybe something to consider

1171
00:49:22,650 --> 00:49:25,280
is adopting Bitcoin
as simply money.

1172
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:26,860
You don't need to tax anybody.

1173
00:49:26,940 --> 00:49:28,650
-You can just mine Bitcoin...
-Prince Philip: Yes.

1174
00:49:28,740 --> 00:49:30,240
...and that will
fund everything.

1175
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,830
The electricity
is relatively cheap.

1176
00:49:32,910 --> 00:49:34,450
It's usually
the smaller countries

1177
00:49:34,540 --> 00:49:37,870
that are more agile
and willing to embrace change

1178
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,170
'cause they're looking
for some advantage.

1179
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:42,290
I think it's a good idea.

1180
00:49:42,380 --> 00:49:45,170
You can really be a beacon
in Europe right now.

1181
00:49:45,250 --> 00:49:47,470
Concretely, how do we do this?

1182
00:49:47,550 --> 00:49:50,470
Mow: We had a really good talk
about Bitcoin adoption

1183
00:49:50,550 --> 00:49:54,010
and what they can do.
And they also, like Costa Rica,

1184
00:49:54,100 --> 00:49:55,770
have a lot of hydropower,

1185
00:49:55,810 --> 00:49:59,640
-so we're making progress
everywhere.
-(breaking up phone reply)

1186
00:49:59,690 --> 00:50:02,690
Hoback:
How did something with such
anarchistic roots

1187
00:50:02,770 --> 00:50:05,820
end up being
mined by countries?

1188
00:50:05,900 --> 00:50:09,070
narrator 1:
It all started in 1849.

1189
00:50:09,150 --> 00:50:11,070
There was gold in California.

1190
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:12,160
Hoback:
In the beginning,

1191
00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:13,740
if you wanted to do
Bitcoin mining,

1192
00:50:13,830 --> 00:50:15,330
your home computer
was good enough.

1193
00:50:15,410 --> 00:50:17,120
Which is how Satoshi racked up

1194
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,580
-what appears to be
over a million Bitcoin.
-(swirling)

1195
00:50:20,670 --> 00:50:22,330
But, once Bitcoin had value...

1196
00:50:22,420 --> 00:50:23,630
narrator 1:
Within a short time,

1197
00:50:23,790 --> 00:50:26,880
all had caught the fever
that only gold would quench.

1198
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:28,590
Hoback:
...people created
specialized mining rigs

1199
00:50:28,670 --> 00:50:29,840
to increase
their chances of winning.

1200
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:31,930
narrator 1:
Which made the job move faster.

1201
00:50:32,010 --> 00:50:33,850
Hoback:
The more people who compete,
the harder it gets.

1202
00:50:33,890 --> 00:50:35,810
narrator 1:
As the gold became
more difficult to find...

1203
00:50:35,890 --> 00:50:38,680
Hoback:
Mining industrialized,
becoming an arms race.

1204
00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:41,140
narrator 2:
It was buckets,
after buckets, after buckets.

1205
00:50:41,190 --> 00:50:44,230
Hoback:
Looking for the cheapest
energy, the fastest miners,

1206
00:50:44,310 --> 00:50:45,690
in search of
the next golden ticket.

1207
00:50:45,770 --> 00:50:48,990
reporter:
Bitcoin mines generated
about $70,000 a day.

1208
00:50:49,030 --> 00:50:51,110
Hoback:
And if you can't keep up,
it stops being profitable.

1209
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:53,700
narrator 1:
As the gold gave out,
people moved away.

1210
00:50:53,740 --> 00:50:55,200
Hoback:
Until most of the players
left in the game

1211
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,370
are basically billionaires
who own their own power plants,

1212
00:50:58,450 --> 00:51:01,250
or countries
who own the power grid.

1213
00:51:01,330 --> 00:51:02,420
It's the grand unveiling.

1214
00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:04,710
I think there's
a couple hundred in here.

1215
00:51:04,790 --> 00:51:05,920
It's a 40-foot container.

1216
00:51:06,090 --> 00:51:09,670
Hoback:
Requiring about
0.5% of all the energy.

1217
00:51:09,710 --> 00:51:13,300
And it requires increasing
amounts of energy consumption

1218
00:51:13,380 --> 00:51:15,260
as more miners compete.

1219
00:51:15,340 --> 00:51:17,890
Hoback:
And while you might think
that's pretty terrible...

1220
00:51:17,930 --> 00:51:19,970
-(fire crackling)
-...compounding
a climate catastrophe,

1221
00:51:20,060 --> 00:51:22,600
if you've ever heard
of petrodollars,

1222
00:51:22,690 --> 00:51:24,230
that's because Nixon
ditched the gold standard

1223
00:51:24,270 --> 00:51:27,070
and intertwined the US dollar
with the oil trade.

1224
00:51:27,110 --> 00:51:28,900
The effect of this action,
in other words,

1225
00:51:28,940 --> 00:51:31,900
will be to stabilize
the dollar.

1226
00:51:31,940 --> 00:51:33,820
Hoback:
Which helped solidify
the dollar's status

1227
00:51:33,910 --> 00:51:35,740
as the global reserve currency,

1228
00:51:35,780 --> 00:51:38,410
but kinda kept us
dependent on oil.

1229
00:51:38,450 --> 00:51:40,120
So, maybe it's just
the nature of money

1230
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,710
that it's based on things
that people value.

1231
00:51:42,750 --> 00:51:45,630
Which is to say, a currency
derived from electricity

1232
00:51:45,710 --> 00:51:47,750
might pose a real threat
to the dollar

1233
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:49,630
if it gained in popularity.

1234
00:51:49,710 --> 00:51:51,960
Assuming it actually worked.

1235
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:56,260
♪♪

1236
00:51:56,340 --> 00:51:59,930
You see, Bitcoin's original
design had a fatal flaw.

1237
00:52:00,010 --> 00:52:01,970
reporter 1:
Well, computer giant Dell
announcing today

1238
00:52:02,060 --> 00:52:04,690
-it will accept Bitcoin.
-reporter 2: Sacramento Kings
to accept Bitcoin.

1239
00:52:04,770 --> 00:52:07,730
Overstock is now
accepting Bitcoin.

1240
00:52:07,770 --> 00:52:09,570
Hoback:
If too many people
started using Bitcoin,

1241
00:52:09,610 --> 00:52:11,530
it would stop working.

1242
00:52:12,490 --> 00:52:13,950
And that's because those blocks

1243
00:52:14,030 --> 00:52:16,490
that make up Bitcoin's
record keeping system,

1244
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,030
-they just can't hold
very much information.
-(whooshing)

1245
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:21,740
They're small.
And you have to wait

1246
00:52:21,790 --> 00:52:23,700
10 minutes before
another block forms.

1247
00:52:24,710 --> 00:52:26,460
So, when Bitcoin got popular,

1248
00:52:26,500 --> 00:52:27,830
your transaction would be stuck

1249
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,750
in line for hours,
sometimes days.

1250
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,260
And since money needs
to work immediately,

1251
00:52:33,340 --> 00:52:35,090
this was a disaster.

1252
00:52:35,170 --> 00:52:36,930
Transaction times
are incredibly high.

1253
00:52:36,970 --> 00:52:38,970
There's a lot of people
questioning long-term
sustainability.

1254
00:52:39,050 --> 00:52:41,680
Stripe is getting out
of the Bitcoin business.

1255
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:43,980
Hoback:
So Gavin, who was still kind of

1256
00:52:44,060 --> 00:52:45,640
steering the Bitcoin ship,
announced...

1257
00:52:45,730 --> 00:52:47,730
We'll definitely
need to increase

1258
00:52:47,810 --> 00:52:49,190
the maximum block size.

1259
00:52:49,270 --> 00:52:52,480
-Hoback: In other words,
make each block bigger.
-(whirs)

1260
00:52:52,570 --> 00:52:54,820
More room for all
the transactions.

1261
00:52:54,860 --> 00:52:56,490
But, not everyone agreed.

1262
00:52:56,530 --> 00:52:58,070
This is obviously a bad idea.

1263
00:52:58,160 --> 00:52:59,200
Oh, this is all bullshit.

1264
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,620
These guys are bringing
about the doom of Bitcoin.

1265
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:05,830
Hoback:
A disagreement which resulted
in a massive nerd fight,

1266
00:53:06,620 --> 00:53:10,130
known as the Blocksize War.

1267
00:53:10,210 --> 00:53:13,170
So, why were they being
so apocalyptic

1268
00:53:13,250 --> 00:53:16,010
about just adding more space
to each Bitcoin block?

1269
00:53:16,090 --> 00:53:18,180
The nerds had
some good reasons.

1270
00:53:18,260 --> 00:53:20,430
For instance,
if you could change something

1271
00:53:20,510 --> 00:53:22,510
as fundamental
as the block size,

1272
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,180
could you also change
the total supply

1273
00:53:25,270 --> 00:53:27,520
from 21 million to 100?

1274
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:31,150
People might lose their faith
in what makes Bitcoin Bitcoin.

1275
00:53:31,230 --> 00:53:33,150
Although, to make
a change like this,

1276
00:53:33,190 --> 00:53:35,740
you have to get pretty much
everyone on board.

1277
00:53:35,820 --> 00:53:38,650
-Otherwise,
the community will split.
-(horn blaring)

1278
00:53:38,700 --> 00:53:40,280
So, instead of
changing Bitcoin,

1279
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,830
the Small Blockers had
a complex technical solution,

1280
00:53:43,870 --> 00:53:45,950
but it would take years.
Meanwhile,

1281
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,460
the Big Blockers wanted
Bitcoin to work now,

1282
00:53:48,540 --> 00:53:50,040
not in some theoretical future.

1283
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,750
Ver:
Governments move slowly.
We need to move quickly

1284
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:54,170
and make this cash
for the entire world

1285
00:53:54,210 --> 00:53:55,960
before the politicians
even know what happened

1286
00:53:56,050 --> 00:53:58,050
and they have time to react
via bigger blocks.

1287
00:53:58,090 --> 00:54:01,050
Hoback:
The fight became vicious,
with each side

1288
00:54:01,090 --> 00:54:03,640
accusing the other of
trying to destroy Bitcoin.

1289
00:54:03,720 --> 00:54:06,680
Ver:
I'm not exaggerating, this
is a life and death matter.

1290
00:54:06,770 --> 00:54:10,230
More babies are dying
in countries around the world

1291
00:54:10,270 --> 00:54:12,650
because they have
less economic freedom.

1292
00:54:12,730 --> 00:54:14,400
Mow:
He's not Bitcoin Jesus.

1293
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:15,940
He's Bitcoin Judas.

1294
00:54:16,030 --> 00:54:17,240
(buzzer blares)

1295
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:19,070
He's the one that's
trying to kill Bitcoin.

1296
00:54:19,150 --> 00:54:20,740
Hoback:
With Bitcoin
essentially divided

1297
00:54:20,820 --> 00:54:22,700
between the church
of small blocks

1298
00:54:22,740 --> 00:54:24,120
and the church
and big blocks,

1299
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:25,080
you might be wondering

1300
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:26,700
where did Satoshi
fall in all of this?

1301
00:54:26,740 --> 00:54:28,660
I think Satoshi
handed the keys off to Gavin

1302
00:54:28,750 --> 00:54:30,920
because he viewed Gavin
as a responsible steward

1303
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:32,750
of the future
of the project.

1304
00:54:32,790 --> 00:54:34,340
But, that doesn't mean
you're the leader.

1305
00:54:34,420 --> 00:54:36,500
That just means you're the guy
who answers questions.

1306
00:54:36,590 --> 00:54:38,550
Hoback:
Well, it seemed Satoshi

1307
00:54:38,630 --> 00:54:41,220
was about to make
their views known.

1308
00:54:41,970 --> 00:54:43,180
After years of silence,

1309
00:54:43,260 --> 00:54:46,100
Satoshi sends an email out
to the mailing list

1310
00:54:47,430 --> 00:54:49,810
to share their concerns.

1311
00:54:50,060 --> 00:54:53,310
It's from the same address
Satoshi used back in 2008.

1312
00:54:54,060 --> 00:54:56,520
The one to distribute
the white paper.

1313
00:54:56,610 --> 00:54:58,650
His words were clear, harsh...

1314
00:54:59,030 --> 00:55:01,450
and firmly against
Roger, Gavin,

1315
00:55:01,490 --> 00:55:03,030
and the big corporations.

1316
00:55:03,110 --> 00:55:05,530
There's a debate
around whether or not

1317
00:55:05,620 --> 00:55:07,950
that was, like, legitimate.

1318
00:55:07,990 --> 00:55:11,160
But, whoever had access
to Satoshi's email

1319
00:55:11,250 --> 00:55:13,830
was somewhat aligned
with Blockstream,

1320
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,340
with their angle
on the scaling debate.

1321
00:55:16,420 --> 00:55:18,960
Hoback:
While some question
the email's authenticity,

1322
00:55:19,050 --> 00:55:22,800
it placed Satoshi squarely
on Blockstream's side.

1323
00:55:23,930 --> 00:55:26,050
-(curious music playing)
-(blade slicing)

1324
00:55:26,140 --> 00:55:29,350
And then, as if sent
from digital heaven,

1325
00:55:29,770 --> 00:55:31,730
Satoshi appeared
in the flesh.

1326
00:55:31,810 --> 00:55:34,020
He was apparently
an Australian fellow...

1327
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,190
named Craig Wright.

1328
00:55:38,270 --> 00:55:42,320
So, you're gonna show me
that Satoshi Nakamoto is you?

1329
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:44,200
♪♪

1330
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:45,410
Yes.

1331
00:55:45,490 --> 00:55:47,410
I do think Craig is Satoshi.

1332
00:55:47,490 --> 00:55:48,740
I met with him in London.

1333
00:55:48,830 --> 00:55:51,870
Uh, he fits the kind of person

1334
00:55:51,950 --> 00:55:55,540
that I was interacting
with way back in 2010,

1335
00:55:55,630 --> 00:55:59,710
and he provided
some cryptographic proof.

1336
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:01,800
Hoback:
Miraculously, this Satoshi

1337
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:03,970
was on Gavin and Roger's side.

1338
00:56:04,380 --> 00:56:06,010
At first, it seemed
wonderful because, oh,

1339
00:56:06,050 --> 00:56:07,800
Satoshi's back,
and he's a Big Blocker.

1340
00:56:07,890 --> 00:56:09,680
Raise the block size.

1341
00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:11,770
Very quickly, people figured out

1342
00:56:11,850 --> 00:56:13,430
this is obviously bullshit.

1343
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,810
Hoback:
It seems like
he'd fake the evidence

1344
00:56:15,900 --> 00:56:18,520
by backdating
his cryptographic proof.

1345
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:20,360
Craig Wright is
incredibly convincing.

1346
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:22,940
For me, he's proved it

1347
00:56:23,030 --> 00:56:24,200
beyond a reasonable doubt.

1348
00:56:24,240 --> 00:56:25,910
But, if you dig
deep enough, long enough,

1349
00:56:25,990 --> 00:56:27,870
the inconsistencies will emerge.

1350
00:56:27,950 --> 00:56:31,160
Yeah, I-I have to be careful
about talking about that topic

1351
00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:33,750
because he, uh, sued me
at some point.

1352
00:56:33,830 --> 00:56:35,160
-Hoback: Who did?
-Craig.

1353
00:56:35,250 --> 00:56:36,460
-He sued--
-Hoback: For what?

1354
00:56:36,540 --> 00:56:37,960
For libel.
He sued a lot of people.

1355
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:40,250
Hoback:
(laughs) Well, that's
something to look forward to.

1356
00:56:40,340 --> 00:56:43,840
(slow music playing)

1357
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,510
To me, Craig Wright was
the death blow in the war.

1358
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:51,180
"Death blow" is a strong word,
but something close to that.

1359
00:56:52,850 --> 00:56:54,480
Thanks, Craig. (scoffs)

1360
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:56,890
Todd:
We got lucky.

1361
00:56:56,940 --> 00:56:58,600
The Blocksize War
went the right way.

1362
00:56:58,690 --> 00:57:00,770
Hoback:
The Blocksize War was over,

1363
00:57:00,860 --> 00:57:02,780
and the Small Blockers had won.

1364
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:06,610
-(laughs) The victor
writes history.
-Mow: (laughs) Yeah.

1365
00:57:06,700 --> 00:57:09,070
O'Leary:
They established themselves as

1366
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:11,120
the ideological
authority on Bitcoin.

1367
00:57:11,490 --> 00:57:14,950
Hoback:
But, had Satoshi
simply regained control?

1368
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,000
It took the Small Blockers
almost a decade

1369
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:20,590
to make their plan work.

1370
00:57:20,670 --> 00:57:22,300
None of that Starbucks bullshit!

1371
00:57:22,380 --> 00:57:25,090
Hoback:
You could buy
coffee with Bitcoin,

1372
00:57:25,130 --> 00:57:27,630
which is why countries
were now able to adopt it.

1373
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:31,350
But, it required the support
of companies like Blockstream.

1374
00:57:31,430 --> 00:57:34,140
-Cheers. You're not
supposed to cheers coffee.
-(cups clink)

1375
00:57:34,220 --> 00:57:35,930
Hoback:
And these companies
would take a small cut

1376
00:57:35,980 --> 00:57:39,100
out of every transaction.
Meaning it ain't...

1377
00:57:39,150 --> 00:57:41,400
Back:
Permissionless electronic cash
for the internet.

1378
00:57:41,810 --> 00:57:45,650
Hoback:
Which fueled theories that
they had ulterior motives.

1379
00:57:46,070 --> 00:57:47,610
It's been delayed by
at least a decade, if not more,

1380
00:57:47,700 --> 00:57:50,070
because of this, uh, block size
limit that was imposed,

1381
00:57:50,110 --> 00:57:53,450
and probably covert government
agents helping it along.

1382
00:57:53,530 --> 00:57:56,950
-Hoback: Yeah, so I guess
we'll just go--
-Peter Todd. (laughs)

1383
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:58,120
Sorry, what was that?

1384
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:00,080
I said Peter Todd,
for one. (laughs)

1385
00:58:00,830 --> 00:58:04,800
Hoback:
Wait. Roger thought Peter Todd
was working for the government?

1386
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:06,090
(tense music playing)

1387
00:58:06,130 --> 00:58:08,170
Hoback:
What-What indication
did you have

1388
00:58:08,260 --> 00:58:09,840
that he was,

1389
00:58:09,930 --> 00:58:12,300
perhaps, collaborating
with the government?

1390
00:58:12,390 --> 00:58:14,430
The things he was advocating
that should happen with Bitcoin

1391
00:58:14,470 --> 00:58:16,810
were counterproductive
to Bitcoin being usable

1392
00:58:16,850 --> 00:58:18,350
as cash and usable as money.

1393
00:58:18,430 --> 00:58:19,690
(typing)

1394
00:58:19,770 --> 00:58:20,980
Hoback:
Prior to 2013,

1395
00:58:21,020 --> 00:58:22,900
pretty much all of
Peter Todd's history

1396
00:58:22,980 --> 00:58:25,020
appears to be wiped
from the internet.

1397
00:58:26,150 --> 00:58:28,240
I finally found
his personal website.

1398
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:29,990
2001...

1399
00:58:30,030 --> 00:58:31,320
Where, in high school,

1400
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:33,830
when he was communicating
with the cypherpunks,

1401
00:58:33,910 --> 00:58:35,330
he joked that in the event

1402
00:58:35,370 --> 00:58:38,000
he becomes an evil dictator
who takes over the world,

1403
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:40,290
he was screwed up
from childhood.

1404
00:58:40,750 --> 00:58:43,080
His father was an economist,

1405
00:58:43,170 --> 00:58:45,340
and his mother taught him
about encryption.

1406
00:58:45,380 --> 00:58:48,340
And while Peter Todd
might have worked for...

1407
00:58:48,380 --> 00:58:50,170
A company manufacturing
gyroscopes

1408
00:58:50,260 --> 00:58:52,550
for drones in the military.

1409
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:56,430
Hoback:
...being in the CIA obviously
wasn't on his resume.

1410
00:58:56,510 --> 00:58:59,980
Or whatever the fuck Canada's
intelligence agency's called.

1411
00:59:00,020 --> 00:59:01,980
But, Roger brought up
something suspicious.

1412
00:59:02,060 --> 00:59:04,690
Later, somebody leaked
this email exchange from him,

1413
00:59:04,730 --> 00:59:05,860
and that guy openly claimed

1414
00:59:05,940 --> 00:59:07,610
that he was working
for the US government.

1415
00:59:07,690 --> 00:59:09,400
Anybody who looks on Google

1416
00:59:09,490 --> 00:59:12,700
and searches,
"Peter Todd leaked emails"
will see...

1417
00:59:12,780 --> 00:59:16,120
Hoback: Back in 2013,
there was this email thread

1418
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:18,240
that had been leaked
between Peter Todd

1419
00:59:18,330 --> 00:59:21,080
and a guy who called
himself John Dillon.

1420
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:22,620
Taaki:
And in the emails,

1421
00:59:22,710 --> 00:59:25,790
Peter Todd was conspiring
with this other guy

1422
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:29,420
who was affiliated
with state actors.

1423
00:59:29,510 --> 00:59:31,420
Hoback:
With John Dillon claiming,

1424
00:59:31,510 --> 00:59:33,380
"My day job
involves intelligence,

1425
00:59:33,430 --> 00:59:36,350
and I'm in a relatively
high position."

1426
00:59:36,430 --> 00:59:39,560
Maybe Amir just wasn't
aware of this at the time.

1427
00:59:40,390 --> 00:59:42,190
If it looks like something's
coming into existence

1428
00:59:42,230 --> 00:59:45,060
that could replace the US dollar
as the world's reserve currency,

1429
00:59:45,150 --> 00:59:47,270
the US government and
its three-letter agencies

1430
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:50,280
absolutely, without any doubt,
will do whatever they can,

1431
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:52,950
including secretly and covertly
disrupting projects

1432
00:59:53,030 --> 00:59:54,110
like Bitcoin.

1433
00:59:54,490 --> 00:59:57,160
Hoback:
If the government
wanted to undermine Bitcoin,

1434
00:59:57,240 --> 00:59:59,740
or try to get close to Satoshi,
how might they do it?

1435
00:59:59,830 --> 01:00:02,250
A guy that openly said
that he was working
for a three-letter agency

1436
01:00:02,290 --> 01:00:03,620
literally paid Peter Todd

1437
01:00:03,710 --> 01:00:06,290
to implement what's
called replace-by-fee.

1438
01:00:06,380 --> 01:00:10,300
Hoback:
John Dillon offered
a strangely small $500 reward

1439
01:00:10,380 --> 01:00:12,420
for anyone who could
design replace-by-fee.

1440
01:00:12,510 --> 01:00:15,130
It was essentially
a bidding service.

1441
01:00:15,220 --> 01:00:19,180
If you pay more, you can
send your Bitcoin faster.

1442
01:00:19,260 --> 01:00:21,180
Replace-by-fee was an attempt

1443
01:00:21,270 --> 01:00:24,140
to fix one of Bitcoin's
design problems.

1444
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:27,110
Something that Satoshi
had speculated on

1445
01:00:27,190 --> 01:00:29,650
just before disappearing
from the forums.

1446
01:00:30,230 --> 01:00:32,990
And Satoshi knew it would be
a fair amount of work.

1447
01:00:33,070 --> 01:00:36,110
So, why would Peter Todd
do it for 500 bucks?

1448
01:00:36,570 --> 01:00:39,870
On the forums, John Dillon
publicly prodded Peter Todd to,

1449
01:00:39,950 --> 01:00:42,500
"Write some code for once."

1450
01:00:42,580 --> 01:00:45,080
And so, in 2013,

1451
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:48,000
about three years after
Satoshi's disappearance,

1452
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:50,710
Peter Todd solves
this design problem.

1453
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:52,460
I played that little part,

1454
01:00:52,550 --> 01:00:54,550
creating this
replace-by-fee patch.

1455
01:00:54,630 --> 01:00:57,640
Hoback:
Which the Big Blockers
thought was a terrible idea

1456
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:00,260
because it could result
in some really high fees

1457
01:01:00,350 --> 01:01:02,140
just to send some Bitcoin.

1458
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:04,430
Ver:
Peter Todd, whether
he's a government agent,

1459
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:06,600
he's absolutely
a super smart guy.

1460
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:08,150
He's gotta be
the smartest guy in the room.

1461
01:01:08,230 --> 01:01:09,480
He always wants
to make sure he can prove

1462
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:10,980
that he's the smartest guy
in the room.

1463
01:01:11,070 --> 01:01:13,440
So, is anyone
in this audience

1464
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:15,150
working for government
right now?

1465
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:16,490
(scattered laughter)

1466
01:01:16,530 --> 01:01:18,360
Because if you are,
I guess I'm one of the people

1467
01:01:18,450 --> 01:01:21,450
handling negotiation
with government.

1468
01:01:21,530 --> 01:01:22,990
Hoback:
Even the email exchange

1469
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:25,790
made Peter Todd
look pretty damn smart.

1470
01:01:25,870 --> 01:01:27,000
But after the leak,

1471
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,170
John Dillon
disappeared for good.

1472
01:01:29,250 --> 01:01:31,540
As far as I know, Peter Todd
never denied any of that.

1473
01:01:31,630 --> 01:01:34,170
I think that's pretty much
accepted as fact at this point.

1474
01:01:34,260 --> 01:01:36,300
Hoback:
I found myself wondering

1475
01:01:36,340 --> 01:01:39,470
if maybe he did work for
the government in some way.

1476
01:01:39,550 --> 01:01:42,850
So, how close were you with
Blockstream back in the day?

1477
01:01:42,890 --> 01:01:43,850
-Todd: Me?
-Hoback: Yeah.

1478
01:01:43,930 --> 01:01:46,180
Uh, mostly,
I went to their office,

1479
01:01:46,270 --> 01:01:48,020
uh, drink all their Red Bull.

1480
01:01:48,060 --> 01:01:50,190
I'd go and
eat all their snacks.

1481
01:01:50,270 --> 01:01:51,940
Yeah, yeah. I mean,
they'd never pay me,

1482
01:01:52,020 --> 01:01:54,440
but I might as well get paid
in all other possible ways.

1483
01:01:54,900 --> 01:01:58,360
Hoback:
So, he was just
strategically close to Adam.

1484
01:01:58,450 --> 01:02:00,910
Well, Adam seems
to respect you a lot.

1485
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:05,500
Meh, I mean I guess
I have reasonable ideas.

1486
01:02:05,540 --> 01:02:08,500
It's not that hard.
Adam respects plenty of people.

1487
01:02:08,580 --> 01:02:10,880
-I think he thinks of
you like a son.
-A son.

1488
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:12,670
Yeah. I mean,
I first talked to him

1489
01:02:12,710 --> 01:02:15,630
-when I was, like, a teenager.
-(Mow laughs)

1490
01:02:15,710 --> 01:02:17,010
It's probably part of it.

1491
01:02:17,090 --> 01:02:18,340
♪♪

1492
01:02:18,420 --> 01:02:20,430
Hoback:
They've got a lot of
conspiracies about you.

1493
01:02:20,510 --> 01:02:21,720
Todd:
Well, they should.

1494
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:24,310
Don't you know I, like,
worked for the CIA, NSA,

1495
01:02:24,390 --> 01:02:26,390
and also KGB at the same time?

1496
01:02:26,470 --> 01:02:29,560
Hoback:
Well, they like to point at that
email dump that happened.

1497
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:31,690
Oh, yeah, yeah,
the John Dillon bullshit.

1498
01:02:31,730 --> 01:02:34,070
-Hoback: Did you release that?
-I have no idea
who that guy is.

1499
01:02:34,150 --> 01:02:36,280
-Hoback: Really?
-I mean, you know, people go

1500
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:37,740
and email you all the time,

1501
01:02:37,780 --> 01:02:40,740
like, telling you
all kinds of bullshit.

1502
01:02:40,780 --> 01:02:42,740
Hoback:
Looked like you were trying
to solve a lot of problems

1503
01:02:42,820 --> 01:02:45,080
-with him at the time, and, uh--
-No, I mean--

1504
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:46,370
Hoback:
And there was, like, concerns

1505
01:02:46,450 --> 01:02:48,540
that, I guess that
John Dillon guy

1506
01:02:48,580 --> 01:02:50,580
was like under-- was like,
an agent or something and then--

1507
01:02:50,620 --> 01:02:52,630
The guy explicitly
claimed he was, uh,

1508
01:02:52,710 --> 01:02:55,090
you know, working for
the US government intelligence.

1509
01:02:55,170 --> 01:02:57,090
But, you know,
is that true or not?

1510
01:02:57,170 --> 01:02:58,970
Who the fuck knows? Like,

1511
01:02:59,340 --> 01:03:00,430
the problem with all this stuff

1512
01:03:00,470 --> 01:03:03,260
is people play all kinds
of crazy games.

1513
01:03:03,340 --> 01:03:04,470
Could be a 4chan troll.

1514
01:03:04,550 --> 01:03:06,220
Like, that's just
the reality of it.

1515
01:03:06,310 --> 01:03:07,270
You just don't know.

1516
01:03:07,310 --> 01:03:08,770
Hoback:
In that email chain,

1517
01:03:08,810 --> 01:03:11,640
there was one thing that
the John Dillon guy said,

1518
01:03:11,730 --> 01:03:12,900
where he was like,

1519
01:03:12,940 --> 01:03:15,520
"If the US government
wanted to fuck up Bitcoin,

1520
01:03:15,610 --> 01:03:18,690
-here's the strategy
that they might take."
-Todd: Well, yeah...

1521
01:03:18,780 --> 01:03:20,570
If you wanted
to go screw with Bitcoin,

1522
01:03:20,650 --> 01:03:23,450
one of the things you do is try
to convince the coding community

1523
01:03:23,530 --> 01:03:25,780
to go splinter up into, like,
five different efforts.

1524
01:03:25,870 --> 01:03:29,290
Hoback:
Which is what happened
after the Blocksize War.

1525
01:03:29,660 --> 01:03:32,620
Because if you couldn't
change Bitcoin,

1526
01:03:32,670 --> 01:03:36,250
why not just
make your own coin?

1527
01:03:36,790 --> 01:03:39,550
♪ Pump it up,
you've got to pump it up ♪

1528
01:03:39,630 --> 01:03:41,630
♪ Don't you know, pump it up ♪

1529
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:43,550
♪ You've got to pump it up ♪

1530
01:03:43,630 --> 01:03:46,430
Hoback:
Soon, dozens, then hundreds,

1531
01:03:46,510 --> 01:03:49,220
then thousands of
alternate coins revved up,

1532
01:03:49,310 --> 01:03:50,480
each coin proclaiming to offer

1533
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:52,640
something different
from Bitcoin.

1534
01:03:52,730 --> 01:03:55,810
You could even bank
while you wank.

1535
01:03:55,860 --> 01:03:58,150
newscaster:
It's unbelievable
how much this has taken off.

1536
01:03:58,190 --> 01:04:00,190
Hoback:
The crypto industry exploded.

1537
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:04,490
-(elongated) Bitconne...ct!
-(crowd cheering)

1538
01:04:04,570 --> 01:04:06,120
Hoback:
Like the stock market,

1539
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:08,030
you could bet
that these alt coins

1540
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:09,830
would boom in value,
and many did,

1541
01:04:09,870 --> 01:04:13,410
with some coins 10-X-ing
or 100-X-ing in value.

1542
01:04:13,500 --> 01:04:15,330
Wall Street now
had competition.

1543
01:04:15,420 --> 01:04:17,960
You heard it here first!
Bitcoin is going to zero!

1544
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:20,840
Hoback:
Virtually unregulated
competition.

1545
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:22,920
Dogecoin to the moon!

1546
01:04:23,010 --> 01:04:24,510
(rapid beeping)

1547
01:04:24,550 --> 01:04:25,840
Hoback:
Which couldn't last.

1548
01:04:25,890 --> 01:04:29,010
(dramatic opera singing)

1549
01:04:33,230 --> 01:04:37,020
And now, the mark--
Oh! Ow! It went to zero!

1550
01:04:37,060 --> 01:04:39,190
Hoback:
By the end of the year,
the bubble burst louder

1551
01:04:39,230 --> 01:04:42,440
-than the stock market
did in the early 2000s.
-(screaming)

1552
01:04:42,530 --> 01:04:46,070
Bitcoin's value cut in half
from its all-time high,

1553
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:47,910
with the crypto casino

1554
01:04:47,990 --> 01:04:51,490
just making the whole
industry seem stupid.

1555
01:04:51,580 --> 01:04:53,960
crypto investor:
It sucks. I mean, I've lost

1556
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:55,790
over $100,000 right now.

1557
01:04:55,870 --> 01:04:58,500
Yo! The motherfucking coins
are dipping!

1558
01:04:58,540 --> 01:05:00,960
Why is the price falling so low?

1559
01:05:01,050 --> 01:05:03,010
I've never cried so much

1560
01:05:03,090 --> 01:05:05,590
in my grown-ass adult life.

1561
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:07,890
It hurts. Um...

1562
01:05:09,010 --> 01:05:10,050
Yeah.

1563
01:05:10,220 --> 01:05:12,850
Nouriel Roubini:
These shitcoins,
they were outright scams

1564
01:05:12,930 --> 01:05:14,560
and frauds.
If there were real shitcoins,

1565
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:18,230
you could use them as manure
to fertilize food.

1566
01:05:18,310 --> 01:05:21,230
I would rather buy shit,
literally shit,

1567
01:05:21,270 --> 01:05:23,740
that's worth something,
is a good fertilizer,

1568
01:05:23,820 --> 01:05:24,900
than buying shitcoins.

1569
01:05:25,190 --> 01:05:27,950
Hoback:
So, how could Bitcoin
separate itself from the pack?

1570
01:05:28,030 --> 01:05:29,490
choir:
♪ Hallelujah ♪

1571
01:05:29,570 --> 01:05:31,830
The answer was
Bitcoin maximalism.

1572
01:05:31,910 --> 01:05:33,950
Bitcoin is perfect.
It's perfect money.

1573
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:35,750
singer:
♪ Hallelujah ♪

1574
01:05:35,790 --> 01:05:37,330
Hoback:
It was salvation
from the shitcoins.

1575
01:05:37,420 --> 01:05:39,790
A gift from on high.

1576
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:42,550
Bitcoin is what they call
the Immaculate Conception.

1577
01:05:42,590 --> 01:05:44,960
Hoback:
The cure to all
the world's problems.

1578
01:05:45,050 --> 01:05:48,300
This idea that Bitcoin
was born perfect, you know?

1579
01:05:48,380 --> 01:05:50,510
It just, like, emerged
from the mind of Satoshi,

1580
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:53,010
almost like a gift
that was received from God,

1581
01:05:53,100 --> 01:05:56,230
and just, like,
perfectly articulated
into the white paper,

1582
01:05:56,270 --> 01:05:57,520
and then into the code.

1583
01:05:57,600 --> 01:05:58,640
That's a complete myth.

1584
01:05:58,810 --> 01:06:00,900
Hoback:
So Bitcoin's greatest "virtue"

1585
01:06:00,940 --> 01:06:03,440
became that
it was already perfect,

1586
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:06,940
reinforcing that it could
never fundamentally change.

1587
01:06:06,990 --> 01:06:10,700
Which created an opening
for its greatest competition.

1588
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:13,280
Ethereum, a coin which was

1589
01:06:13,370 --> 01:06:15,410
Bitcoin's opposite
in almost every way,

1590
01:06:15,450 --> 01:06:18,120
including having
a very prominent founder.

1591
01:06:18,210 --> 01:06:20,670
-Why the hat?
-Oh, yeah...

1592
01:06:20,750 --> 01:06:21,830
For mosquitoes?

1593
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:24,090
(speaking English)

1594
01:06:26,300 --> 01:06:28,380
So, Bitcoin is a blockchain

1595
01:06:28,470 --> 01:06:30,340
that's designed
for one application.

1596
01:06:30,430 --> 01:06:34,140
-The hat makes you
even more... conspicious.
-(Buterin mutters)

1597
01:06:34,180 --> 01:06:36,020
Vitalik Buterin:
Ethereum basically
will let people do

1598
01:06:36,100 --> 01:06:38,480
whatever thing that they want
to do on top of it.

1599
01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:40,560
Hoback:
Like NFTs,

1600
01:06:40,650 --> 01:06:43,020
which are basically just...
whatever fucking shit

1601
01:06:43,110 --> 01:06:44,570
stored on a blockchain.

1602
01:06:44,650 --> 01:06:47,030
-We're part of the same
community. We're both apes.
-I know. Yes, love it.

1603
01:06:47,110 --> 01:06:49,820
Hoback:
Some people paid
ungodly amounts for these.

1604
01:06:50,990 --> 01:06:53,740
The Ethereum team even made
their announcements

1605
01:06:53,830 --> 01:06:56,620
-through... rap.
-(hip-hop music playing)

1606
01:06:56,660 --> 01:06:59,120
♪ Yo, not just a pre-compiler
change of op-codes ♪

1607
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:01,870
♪ We're here to sustain
the scale of our full nodes ♪

1608
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:04,210
♪ Proof-of-stake is hard,
but what I do know ♪

1609
01:07:04,290 --> 01:07:07,170
♪ Is when we learn to shard
we'll change
the whole game though ♪

1610
01:07:07,210 --> 01:07:09,880
Back: I mean, that was
super embarrassing, right?

1611
01:07:09,970 --> 01:07:11,050
-Yeah.
-(laughter)

1612
01:07:11,130 --> 01:07:12,470
Proof of cringe or something.

1613
01:07:12,510 --> 01:07:14,300
-(Prince Philip laughs)
-That was pretty bad.

1614
01:07:14,350 --> 01:07:17,270
Hoback:
Naturally, Bitcoin maximalists
hate Ethereum.

1615
01:07:17,350 --> 01:07:19,930
But then, what do you do
with Ethereum?
You make more shitcoins.

1616
01:07:20,020 --> 01:07:22,480
It went from
10,000 coins to 20,000 coins

1617
01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:24,860
in actually not that long
of a period of time.

1618
01:07:24,940 --> 01:07:26,690
The Scambrian explosion.

1619
01:07:26,730 --> 01:07:30,110
-(laughter)
-(somber music playing)

1620
01:07:30,190 --> 01:07:33,240
Hoback:
But, the so-called
Scambrian explosion

1621
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,200
had a serious side effect.

1622
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:38,410
China now had
the excuse it needed

1623
01:07:38,490 --> 01:07:41,290
to ban all crypto currencies,

1624
01:07:41,370 --> 01:07:43,370
so that they could
launch their own.

1625
01:07:43,420 --> 01:07:46,090
China's currency
is going digital,

1626
01:07:46,170 --> 01:07:48,840
known as e-Chinese yuan.

1627
01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:52,550
Hoback:
It was basically
a government-backed shitcoin.

1628
01:07:52,630 --> 01:07:54,590
Their digital currency
was inflationary,

1629
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:57,350
their government had
total control of your wallet,

1630
01:07:57,430 --> 01:07:59,140
and it took Bitcoin's
privacy problems

1631
01:07:59,220 --> 01:08:00,770
and turned them into a feature.

1632
01:08:00,850 --> 01:08:03,690
speaker:
The People's Bank of China
is gonna be able

1633
01:08:03,730 --> 01:08:07,070
to peer inside of
every single transaction.

1634
01:08:07,150 --> 01:08:10,570
So, they're building
everything to be monitored.

1635
01:08:10,650 --> 01:08:12,450
(crowd clamoring)

1636
01:08:12,530 --> 01:08:14,570
So, there were protests
in Hong Kong.

1637
01:08:14,610 --> 01:08:15,700
And what people had to do

1638
01:08:15,740 --> 01:08:17,330
was buy their subway tickets
with cash.

1639
01:08:17,410 --> 01:08:19,240
-They couldn't use their card.
-Hoback: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

1640
01:08:19,330 --> 01:08:20,580
Mow:
Because then you can be traced

1641
01:08:20,660 --> 01:08:22,080
that you went to the protests.

1642
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:23,710
So, it's a very dangerous thing.

1643
01:08:23,750 --> 01:08:26,790
Hoback:
It's what's known as a CBDC,

1644
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:29,380
or central bank
digital currency.

1645
01:08:29,420 --> 01:08:31,840
With Bitcoin, it still takes
some digging

1646
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:33,800
to figure out who owns what.

1647
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:35,840
And if you're careful,
or you're Satoshi

1648
01:08:35,930 --> 01:08:39,100
-and never spend your coins,
you can stay hidden.
-(whoosh)

1649
01:08:39,180 --> 01:08:42,310
But, with CBDCs, your identity
is known to the government

1650
01:08:42,390 --> 01:08:44,850
and your wallet controlled.

1651
01:08:44,940 --> 01:08:47,360
In other words,
Satoshi's invention

1652
01:08:47,440 --> 01:08:50,820
had given rise to the very
thing it aimed to prevent.

1653
01:08:51,780 --> 01:08:56,110
-(money rustling)
-What would happen if other
countries followed suit?

1654
01:08:58,910 --> 01:09:02,620
But, the Maxis were convinced
that Bitcoin would win the day,

1655
01:09:02,700 --> 01:09:04,540
putting their faith on display

1656
01:09:04,620 --> 01:09:07,210
by pilgrimaging to a massive
yearly conference.

1657
01:09:07,290 --> 01:09:08,920
And it's ridiculous.

1658
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:12,210
-(upbeat music playing)
-(crowd cheering)

1659
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:16,260
I'll die on this hill,
but they can't stop this idea.

1660
01:09:16,300 --> 01:09:19,050
Maxi:
That bright orange future
that is Bitcoin...

1661
01:09:19,140 --> 01:09:22,470
We are the vanguard
of a new monetary system.

1662
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:23,640
(cheering)

1663
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:25,890
Yo! Yo! Yo! Bitcoin!

1664
01:09:25,980 --> 01:09:29,190
I am more bullish
than ever on Bitcoin.

1665
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:30,520
(music stops)

1666
01:09:30,610 --> 01:09:32,530
Hoback:
It's like you're in
some sort of cult.

1667
01:09:32,610 --> 01:09:34,820
(laughs) You're gonna
make me look bad.

1668
01:09:34,860 --> 01:09:38,200
-(crowd cheering)
-I have Senator Indira Kempis

1669
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:39,820
to give an update on Mexico.

1670
01:09:39,910 --> 01:09:42,700
Indira Kempis:
67 million people
are not included

1671
01:09:42,790 --> 01:09:44,000
in our financial system.

1672
01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:46,830
As the president of Madeira,
I believe in Bitcoin.

1673
01:09:46,870 --> 01:09:49,540
Bitcoin, within Prospera,

1674
01:09:49,620 --> 01:09:51,540
operates as legal tender.

1675
01:09:51,630 --> 01:09:54,210
I'll make a small announcement.

1676
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:57,880
I have a new Bitcoin
company called Jan3.

1677
01:09:58,550 --> 01:10:00,510
I decided to leave Blockstream

1678
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:02,680
and focus more on
nation-state Bitcoin adoption.

1679
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,730
Hoback: So, were
they feeling the pressure?

1680
01:10:05,810 --> 01:10:07,060
(gallery chatter)

1681
01:10:07,140 --> 01:10:09,730
I guess Bitcoin doesn't
adopt itself, right?

1682
01:10:09,810 --> 01:10:13,110
-Well, I want it to go faster.
-(Back laughs)

1683
01:10:13,190 --> 01:10:15,900
Back:
So, uh, your company name, 3Jan?

1684
01:10:15,990 --> 01:10:18,450
-Jan3.
-So, explain why 3Jan?

1685
01:10:18,530 --> 01:10:20,870
January 3, 2009.

1686
01:10:20,950 --> 01:10:22,200
That was the start
of Bitcoin, was it?

1687
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:23,870
-Well, that's the
Genesis Block, right?
-Okay!

1688
01:10:23,910 --> 01:10:25,580
Every year, it's Jan 3
is the anniversary

1689
01:10:25,660 --> 01:10:28,080
-of the Genesis Block.
-Alright, yeah, you're good
on the anniversaries.

1690
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:30,330
Hoback:
Samson was telling me there was
another anniversary recently

1691
01:10:30,370 --> 01:10:34,090
-that I did not know of.
-Yeah, uh, Adam's birthday
on April 5th.

1692
01:10:34,590 --> 01:10:35,630
(awkward laugh)

1693
01:10:36,130 --> 01:10:37,760
-That's not my birthday.
-Inside joke.

1694
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:40,470
-Is it? Very well.
-It's an inside joke.

1695
01:10:40,550 --> 01:10:42,010
Hoback:
April 5th

1696
01:10:42,050 --> 01:10:44,680
was Satoshi's
supposed birthday.

1697
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:47,730
-Mow: She wants to take
a photo with her artwork.
-Back: Okay.

1698
01:10:47,770 --> 01:10:50,060
-It has no sleeve, right?
-No.

1699
01:10:50,100 --> 01:10:51,770
-It's a cloak? Alright.
-It's a cloak.

1700
01:10:51,850 --> 01:10:54,690
-(shutters snapping, laughter)
-You guys are having fun now.

1701
01:10:57,070 --> 01:10:59,240
So, he thinks that
you're Satoshi.

1702
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:00,990
I hope he doesn't. (laughs)

1703
01:11:01,070 --> 01:11:03,240
I tried to explain to him
specifically that I'm not.

1704
01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:05,370
Hoback:
I said that you can
make a case for Adam,

1705
01:11:05,450 --> 01:11:06,700
and you can make
a strong case,

1706
01:11:06,790 --> 01:11:08,250
but it doesn't mean
that I'm convinced.

1707
01:11:08,330 --> 01:11:10,370
No, Satoshi was a team.

1708
01:11:10,460 --> 01:11:11,500
♪♪

1709
01:11:11,580 --> 01:11:13,250
(laughing)

1710
01:11:13,290 --> 01:11:14,540
Just kidding. Just kidding.

1711
01:11:14,630 --> 01:11:17,260
Hoback:
Even with the breakup,
I was a little surprised

1712
01:11:17,300 --> 01:11:21,130
he was trolling Adam this hard
about being Satoshi.

1713
01:11:21,590 --> 01:11:24,470
-(Back speaking)
-(laughter)

1714
01:11:25,260 --> 01:11:27,430
Hoback:
Yeah, yeah, as long as
the troll is on your side.

1715
01:11:27,470 --> 01:11:30,350
(Back speaking)

1716
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:36,820
(soft music playing)

1717
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:41,320
(upbeat music playing)

1718
01:11:42,780 --> 01:11:44,490
-(items clatter)
-Mow: Oh, boy.

1719
01:11:44,950 --> 01:11:47,580
-(plane humming)
-Hoback: The US had more
or less fought wars

1720
01:11:47,660 --> 01:11:49,160
to maintain the status
of the dollar

1721
01:11:49,250 --> 01:11:50,910
as the global
reserve currency.

1722
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:52,620
-Let's order a coffee.
-Okay.

1723
01:11:52,670 --> 01:11:54,040
Hoback:
How might they react

1724
01:11:54,130 --> 01:11:55,960
if more countries
adopted Bitcoin?

1725
01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:57,000
Mow:
I'm not gonna lie.

1726
01:11:57,090 --> 01:11:58,300
You're probably gonna
get some heat

1727
01:11:58,420 --> 01:12:01,130
because the powers that be
don't want this to happen.

1728
01:12:01,170 --> 01:12:04,180
Prince Philip:
All currencies
will turn to one.

1729
01:12:04,260 --> 01:12:05,010
Bitcoin.

1730
01:12:05,090 --> 01:12:06,510
Things change very quickly.

1731
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:09,640
Tucker, I just wanna say hi.
You're doing an excellent job.

1732
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:11,600
That's my card. (laughs)

1733
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:14,480
-I'm the crazy prince
that's talking about Bitcoin.
-(laughs)

1734
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:16,810
But, you know how it is.
They-- First, they laugh at you.

1735
01:12:16,900 --> 01:12:18,690
(indistinct chatter)

1736
01:12:18,780 --> 01:12:20,110
Stealth mode.

1737
01:12:20,150 --> 01:12:22,490
That's not stealth.
That's a Canada hoodie.

1738
01:12:22,530 --> 01:12:24,860
(Prince Philip speaking English)

1739
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:30,160
Jack Dorsey: What Bitcoin
does to societies,

1740
01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:32,410
what it does to people's
relationship with money,

1741
01:12:32,500 --> 01:12:36,040
to the state, to each other,
it literally changes everything.

1742
01:12:36,790 --> 01:12:39,050
Hoback:
But, what path would it take?

1743
01:12:39,130 --> 01:12:40,960
♪♪

1744
01:12:41,010 --> 01:12:43,800
Today, Bitcoin takes
yet another turn lower.

1745
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:45,890
This is a Bitcoin emergency.

1746
01:12:45,970 --> 01:12:48,680
Complete free fall.
Anything can happen.

1747
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:50,350
(thunder rumbles)

1748
01:12:50,430 --> 01:12:53,230
There's a crisis. You've got
reporters calling you right now.

1749
01:12:53,310 --> 01:12:56,190
-(boat rumbling)
-What are you telling them?

1750
01:12:56,730 --> 01:12:59,020
Well, I mean,
people look at the short term,

1751
01:12:59,070 --> 01:13:01,360
and the news cycle
is, like, day by day.

1752
01:13:01,440 --> 01:13:04,780
But, Bitcoin has been around
for, like, over a decade.

1753
01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:06,320
(thunder cracks)

1754
01:13:06,660 --> 01:13:07,910
(Hoback speaking)

1755
01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:09,660
-(boat captain speaking)
-Yeah.

1756
01:13:09,700 --> 01:13:11,700
-That's pretty cool.
-(murmuring)

1757
01:13:11,790 --> 01:13:13,540
(Hoback speaking)

1758
01:13:13,580 --> 01:13:14,830
(boat captain speaking)

1759
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:18,840
Hoback:
Unfortunately for him,

1760
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:20,210
amidst this crash,

1761
01:13:20,290 --> 01:13:23,550
Luna was a shitcoin
that really hit the fan.

1762
01:13:23,630 --> 01:13:24,760
(Hoback speaking)

1763
01:13:25,220 --> 01:13:27,890
-He had it.
-Yes. (laughs)

1764
01:13:27,930 --> 01:13:29,640
Hoback:
Looking like a Ponzi scheme...

1765
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:30,890
You're looking at
a similar scale

1766
01:13:30,930 --> 01:13:32,180
to the Madoff Ponzi.

1767
01:13:32,220 --> 01:13:34,230
Hoback:
...after million-dollar
Ponzi scheme...

1768
01:13:34,310 --> 01:13:36,560
Celsius is being
accused of functioning

1769
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:37,850
like a Ponzi scheme.

1770
01:13:37,940 --> 01:13:39,440
Hoback:
...this was their founder.

1771
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:42,730
Who would be crazy enough
to give their coins,

1772
01:13:42,780 --> 01:13:45,280
their crypto, to somebody
who's not a bank?

1773
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:48,530
Hoback:
But the people who trusted
this guy with their crypto,

1774
01:13:48,570 --> 01:13:49,910
they lost billions.

1775
01:13:49,990 --> 01:13:52,410
This is bullshit!
I gave you my goddamn money!

1776
01:13:52,490 --> 01:13:55,120
I want it back!
What the fuck is going on?!

1777
01:13:55,200 --> 01:13:57,120
Jim Cramer:
Cryptocurrencies of all kinds

1778
01:13:57,210 --> 01:13:59,880
are still cascading
with no real bottom in sight.

1779
01:13:59,920 --> 01:14:02,250
-(thunder cracks)
-Hoback: Is lightning serious?

1780
01:14:02,300 --> 01:14:03,340
(boat roaring)

1781
01:14:03,420 --> 01:14:05,590
Uh, I guess we're-we're
getting the hell outta here.

1782
01:14:05,670 --> 01:14:08,590
But, this storm wasn't over.

1783
01:14:08,630 --> 01:14:10,090
FTX shocked investors

1784
01:14:10,180 --> 01:14:11,640
by declaring
bankruptcy this week.

1785
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:15,890
It spent millions making sure
its name was seen and known.

1786
01:14:15,980 --> 01:14:19,150
Hoback:
Sam Bankman-Fried,
known as SBF,

1787
01:14:19,230 --> 01:14:22,150
was the young, disheveled CEO
of a massive US-based

1788
01:14:22,230 --> 01:14:24,440
crypto exchange called FTX.

1789
01:14:24,530 --> 01:14:26,860
FTX? It's a safe and easy way
to get into crypto.

1790
01:14:26,940 --> 01:14:28,450
Eh, I don't think so.

1791
01:14:28,490 --> 01:14:31,660
Hoback:
He defrauded customers
and stole billions.

1792
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:34,120
reporter:
This is worse than Theranos.

1793
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:35,910
This is worse than Madoff.

1794
01:14:36,620 --> 01:14:39,330
Hoback:
And although he donated to
a lot of politicians

1795
01:14:39,420 --> 01:14:40,290
and charities...

1796
01:14:40,370 --> 01:14:42,210
If I can do anything
to help other people,

1797
01:14:42,290 --> 01:14:43,670
help the world,
that's just as good.

1798
01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:47,170
Hoback:
...he didn't manage to bribe
his way out of being arrested.

1799
01:14:47,260 --> 01:14:50,010
The fraud they committed
was worse than the Enron mess,

1800
01:14:50,090 --> 01:14:53,050
according to the guy
who cleaned up the Enron mess.

1801
01:14:53,140 --> 01:14:54,470
They used QuickBooks.

1802
01:14:54,510 --> 01:14:57,180
Multi-billion-dollar company
using QuickBooks.

1803
01:14:57,270 --> 01:14:59,640
Back:
The regulators, when they
see something losing...

1804
01:14:59,690 --> 01:15:00,980
(thunder cracks)

1805
01:15:01,020 --> 01:15:02,940
...$60 billion of retail money,

1806
01:15:03,020 --> 01:15:04,860
then, of course, they're gonna
have something to say.

1807
01:15:04,940 --> 01:15:06,150
Hoback:
Yeah, alright, let's get out.

1808
01:15:06,230 --> 01:15:08,360
The Secretary of the Treasury,
Janet Yellen,

1809
01:15:08,440 --> 01:15:10,200
began acting on
an executive order

1810
01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:14,160
that Biden had signed to
rein in the crypto industry.

1811
01:15:14,200 --> 01:15:16,450
There are risks to
financial stability,

1812
01:15:16,490 --> 01:15:17,870
and we need a framework.

1813
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:20,710
Hoback:
But, what would this mean
for Bitcoin?

1814
01:15:21,500 --> 01:15:24,290
Just because you're paranoid
doesn't mean they're
not out to get you.

1815
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:27,170
It's actually more realistic
than you think.

1816
01:15:28,460 --> 01:15:31,970
-(planes idling)
-Hello, Melina.
Good to see you again.

1817
01:15:32,010 --> 01:15:34,010
Hoback:
Samson returned to El Salvador,

1818
01:15:34,100 --> 01:15:35,720
where the President
was facing increased

1819
01:15:35,810 --> 01:15:38,930
international pressure
for having adopted Bitcoin.

1820
01:15:39,020 --> 01:15:40,600
The attacks are increasing.

1821
01:15:40,690 --> 01:15:42,560
This rating agency
just downgraded

1822
01:15:42,650 --> 01:15:44,060
El Salvador's long-term debt.

1823
01:15:44,150 --> 01:15:45,730
They're trying to put
the pressure on.

1824
01:15:45,820 --> 01:15:48,030
But, President
doesn't give a fuck.

1825
01:15:48,070 --> 01:15:49,690
Shepard Smith:
The International Monetary Fund

1826
01:15:49,780 --> 01:15:52,860
has urged El Salvador
to reverse course on Bitcoin.

1827
01:15:52,950 --> 01:15:54,240
In response, Bukele tweeted,

1828
01:15:54,320 --> 01:15:57,290
"Okay, boomers.
You have zero jurisdiction.

1829
01:15:57,370 --> 01:16:00,540
We are not your colony, your
backyard, or your front yard."

1830
01:16:00,580 --> 01:16:03,330
William Soriano:
The IMF has some
political control

1831
01:16:03,420 --> 01:16:06,000
over the countries
they assist.

1832
01:16:06,090 --> 01:16:08,380
And that's where
Bitcoin comes in.

1833
01:16:08,460 --> 01:16:10,050
The first time I saw him,
he was saying,

1834
01:16:10,130 --> 01:16:12,880
"We're ready to die
on this hill. All of us!

1835
01:16:12,970 --> 01:16:14,390
We're ready to die
on this hill."

1836
01:16:14,470 --> 01:16:17,180
Hoback:
Hope they were ready
because the powers that be

1837
01:16:17,220 --> 01:16:19,680
-had a plan of their own.
-(waves splashing)

1838
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:22,440
(insects chirping)

1839
01:16:22,520 --> 01:16:24,940
Okay, yeah,
this is the news. So...

1840
01:16:25,810 --> 01:16:28,480
uh, MasterCard, Wells Fargo,
Citigroup, and others launch

1841
01:16:28,570 --> 01:16:30,900
a 12-week experimental
digital dollar pilot

1842
01:16:30,940 --> 01:16:32,950
with the New York Fed.
Did you see that?

1843
01:16:33,030 --> 01:16:35,620
I didn't see that.
So what, it's a CBDC?

1844
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:38,580
Oh, interesting.

1845
01:16:40,580 --> 01:16:42,910
-Your plot is coming true.
-Can I give you this?

1846
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:44,580
Mow:
Things are heating up.

1847
01:16:44,670 --> 01:16:46,920
Can I give you some fiat?

1848
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:48,540
-(laughter)
-(curious music playing)

1849
01:16:48,630 --> 01:16:50,920
Hoback: Under the cover
of the FTX scandal,

1850
01:16:51,010 --> 01:16:52,220
the United States announced

1851
01:16:52,470 --> 01:16:56,470
it would explore remaking
the US Dollar as a CBDC.

1852
01:16:57,260 --> 01:17:00,260
You know, that thing that was
condemned by Western media

1853
01:17:00,350 --> 01:17:03,850
-and US politicians
over human rights issues.
-(crowd yelling)

1854
01:17:04,140 --> 01:17:06,980
The Chinese CBDC
is a surveillance tool.

1855
01:17:07,440 --> 01:17:10,230
Hoback:
But now, the West was
preparing to get on board.

1856
01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:12,440
The Fed even had
their own white paper.

1857
01:17:12,490 --> 01:17:14,450
Jerome Powell:
As our white paper
on this topic notes,

1858
01:17:14,530 --> 01:17:18,030
a US CBDC could also
potentially help maintain

1859
01:17:18,120 --> 01:17:19,530
the dollar's
international standing.

1860
01:17:19,620 --> 01:17:21,910
-Hoback: A digital dollar...
-(glitching)

1861
01:17:21,950 --> 01:17:24,790
...that could replace
cash entirely.

1862
01:17:24,830 --> 01:17:26,960
And they weren't alone.

1863
01:17:27,040 --> 01:17:28,500
♪♪

1864
01:17:28,750 --> 01:17:31,460
reporter:
60% of central banks
around the world

1865
01:17:31,550 --> 01:17:33,300
are currently experimenting
with CBDCs.

1866
01:17:33,380 --> 01:17:36,260
The CBDCs,
it's really or authoritarianism

1867
01:17:36,340 --> 01:17:38,260
from even Western governments.

1868
01:17:38,340 --> 01:17:41,680
On CBDCs, I have
pushed that project.

1869
01:17:41,760 --> 01:17:42,890
By 2030,

1870
01:17:42,970 --> 01:17:45,850
Britcoin,
a central bank digital currency,

1871
01:17:45,940 --> 01:17:47,020
will be up and running.

1872
01:17:47,440 --> 01:17:49,400
Hoback:
Why would a country
adopt Bitcoin

1873
01:17:49,480 --> 01:17:51,190
when a government could just

1874
01:17:51,270 --> 01:17:53,030
issue their own
digital currency

1875
01:17:53,110 --> 01:17:55,450
and have complete control?

1876
01:17:55,530 --> 01:17:57,780
Digital public money
could help drive out

1877
01:17:57,820 --> 01:17:59,660
bogus digital private money.

1878
01:17:59,740 --> 01:18:01,410
Ver: The technology
is tough to compete with,

1879
01:18:01,490 --> 01:18:03,200
so if you can't beat 'em,
you have to join 'em.

1880
01:18:03,450 --> 01:18:05,500
reporter:
It is potentially
the biggest change to money

1881
01:18:05,540 --> 01:18:06,540
since, I don't know,

1882
01:18:06,580 --> 01:18:08,830
currency consolidation
after the Civil War.

1883
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:10,210
Roubini:
Once we have CBDCs,

1884
01:18:10,290 --> 01:18:12,420
they're gonna
essentially crowd out

1885
01:18:12,500 --> 01:18:14,340
any alternative
payment system.

1886
01:18:14,710 --> 01:18:17,010
So, the future
of payment transaction

1887
01:18:17,090 --> 01:18:19,180
is one bank,
run by the government

1888
01:18:19,220 --> 01:18:21,350
with some cooperation
of the private sector,

1889
01:18:21,390 --> 01:18:22,850
financial institutions.

1890
01:18:23,060 --> 01:18:26,730
Hoback:
So, banks might still manage
things like giving out loans.

1891
01:18:27,100 --> 01:18:28,390
But someday, our bank accounts

1892
01:18:28,480 --> 01:18:31,020
could be directly with the Fed?

1893
01:18:31,060 --> 01:18:32,520
They can surveil
all your transactions,

1894
01:18:32,610 --> 01:18:34,190
and they have
complete data monopoly.

1895
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:37,200
Well, I think it's
a bit of a crossroads. (laughs)

1896
01:18:37,240 --> 01:18:39,410
It could become
extremely dystopian.

1897
01:18:39,490 --> 01:18:41,450
♪♪

1898
01:18:41,530 --> 01:18:43,240
Mow: There is a way
that you could do a CBDC

1899
01:18:43,330 --> 01:18:45,910
that is not... bad for people.

1900
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:48,160
-But, the problem is
they don't want that.
-No, of course not.

1901
01:18:48,250 --> 01:18:49,710
They don't want the privacy.

1902
01:18:50,370 --> 01:18:52,540
Faster Bitcoin adoption means

1903
01:18:52,590 --> 01:18:55,840
the better off the world will be
when the shit hits the fan.

1904
01:18:57,050 --> 01:18:58,970
And the shit is hitting the fan.

1905
01:18:59,050 --> 01:19:01,140
(curious music playing)

1906
01:19:01,220 --> 01:19:04,060
Fallout continues
to grow from the collapse

1907
01:19:04,100 --> 01:19:06,060
of Silicon Valley Bank
and Signature Bank.

1908
01:19:06,140 --> 01:19:07,270
First Republic Bank,

1909
01:19:07,390 --> 01:19:10,560
second largest bank failure
in US history.

1910
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:14,320
Hoback:
Following the pandemic,
the Fed printed a lot of money.

1911
01:19:14,770 --> 01:19:17,820
$13 trillion.
It triggered inflation

1912
01:19:17,900 --> 01:19:20,150
not seen in over 40 years.

1913
01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:22,780
Suddenly, banks had
risky balance sheets.

1914
01:19:22,870 --> 01:19:23,910
There were bank runs,

1915
01:19:23,990 --> 01:19:27,080
and four massive banks
were wiped out overnight.

1916
01:19:27,580 --> 01:19:30,040
Similar to what happened
in 2009,

1917
01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:31,790
the government stepped in
to prevent

1918
01:19:31,870 --> 01:19:33,380
a total financial meltdown.

1919
01:19:33,460 --> 01:19:35,840
I can reassure the members
of the committee

1920
01:19:35,920 --> 01:19:38,300
that our banking system
is sound.

1921
01:19:38,380 --> 01:19:39,920
Hoback:
Amid this crisis,

1922
01:19:39,970 --> 01:19:41,760
regulators seized
an opportunity.

1923
01:19:41,840 --> 01:19:43,800
Kathy Hochul:
New York State Department
of Financial Services

1924
01:19:43,890 --> 01:19:47,270
took possession of
a New York chartered bank,

1925
01:19:47,310 --> 01:19:49,100
known as Signature,
last night.

1926
01:19:49,180 --> 01:19:50,730
Hoback:
This was strange

1927
01:19:50,810 --> 01:19:53,480
because Signature Bank
wasn't actually insolvent.

1928
01:19:53,940 --> 01:19:58,150
Meanwhile, First Republic,
another bank that failed, was.

1929
01:19:58,690 --> 01:20:00,190
But instead of
shutting them down,

1930
01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:01,780
they got a full bail-out.

1931
01:20:02,450 --> 01:20:05,870
The difference, Signature was
the only major bank

1932
01:20:05,950 --> 01:20:08,330
servicing the crypto industry.

1933
01:20:08,410 --> 01:20:11,790
The regulators are sending a,
uh, a clear signal.

1934
01:20:11,830 --> 01:20:13,460
Stay, stay away from digital.

1935
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:16,290
Hoback:
But, the next signal
would come in the form

1936
01:20:16,340 --> 01:20:18,300
of a familiar face.

1937
01:20:18,340 --> 01:20:21,090
So, Roger Ver, Bitcoin Jesus

1938
01:20:21,170 --> 01:20:23,050
was just arrested in Spain.

1939
01:20:23,130 --> 01:20:24,510
Roger had allegedly evaded

1940
01:20:24,590 --> 01:20:27,810
$48 million in Bitcoin taxes.

1941
01:20:27,890 --> 01:20:30,680
You can have your own
private bank account, right?

1942
01:20:30,770 --> 01:20:33,810
It's called a Bitcoin account,
and it's impossible

1943
01:20:33,850 --> 01:20:35,440
for the government
to seize your account.

1944
01:20:35,810 --> 01:20:38,320
Hoback:
But, it seems
they could extradite him,

1945
01:20:38,360 --> 01:20:40,940
even though he'd renounced
his US citizenship.

1946
01:20:42,320 --> 01:20:44,030
Todd: You know,
what you're really asking

1947
01:20:44,110 --> 01:20:45,490
is what's the endpoint
to the crackdowns.

1948
01:20:45,530 --> 01:20:47,410
This is an example
of regulators

1949
01:20:47,490 --> 01:20:49,660
who cannot actually do
what they want to do,

1950
01:20:49,740 --> 01:20:51,830
-which was just go ban Bitcoin.
-Back: Right.

1951
01:20:51,870 --> 01:20:54,500
Instead, they apply pressure
in this sort of alternative way

1952
01:20:54,580 --> 01:20:57,170
to go do something they're
not really allowed to do.

1953
01:20:57,210 --> 01:20:59,090
They fired all
the missiles now, right?

1954
01:20:59,170 --> 01:21:01,670
They-They've sued
the biggest exchanges.

1955
01:21:01,710 --> 01:21:03,260
They've made
all the allegations.

1956
01:21:03,340 --> 01:21:06,930
Hoback:
But, the big banks and the
government weren't done yet.

1957
01:21:07,550 --> 01:21:09,680
Dimon:
Crypto, Bitcoin, etc.

1958
01:21:09,760 --> 01:21:11,520
If I was the government,
I'd close it down.

1959
01:21:11,600 --> 01:21:13,060
We've got a way to do this!

1960
01:21:13,140 --> 01:21:16,560
Hoback:
So, Senator Warren
introduced a bipartisan bill

1961
01:21:16,650 --> 01:21:18,190
that would essentially
make it illegal

1962
01:21:18,270 --> 01:21:20,530
to use Bitcoin
like digital cash.

1963
01:21:20,610 --> 01:21:22,320
Asked if they would
support this,

1964
01:21:22,360 --> 01:21:24,200
the banks seemed delighted.

1965
01:21:24,240 --> 01:21:25,860
-Let's go on down the line.
-Absolutely.

1966
01:21:25,910 --> 01:21:28,070
-banker 1: Absolutely.
-banker 2: Absolutely.

1967
01:21:28,160 --> 01:21:29,490
banker 3:
Absolutely.

1968
01:21:29,580 --> 01:21:31,540
-Absolutely, Senator.
-Okay, I like absolutely!

1969
01:21:31,580 --> 01:21:34,870
Hoback:
But Wall Street had a plan.

1970
01:21:34,910 --> 01:21:36,500
Let's get it inside
the regulated system

1971
01:21:36,540 --> 01:21:37,920
as much as, as we can.

1972
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:40,670
Hoback:
Bitcoin would be traded
on the stock market,

1973
01:21:40,710 --> 01:21:42,380
but you wouldn't
actually own it.

1974
01:21:42,460 --> 01:21:45,840
The banks and hedge funds,
they would hold it for you.

1975
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:47,640
This is the day
where it goes from malarkey

1976
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:49,350
to actually
an investable asset.

1977
01:21:49,390 --> 01:21:53,140
Hoback:
Bitcoin would now be a part of
retirement funds and pensions.

1978
01:21:53,220 --> 01:21:55,980
Put Bitcoin in their 401(k)s.

1979
01:21:56,060 --> 01:21:58,600
Hoback:
Solidifying its role
as digital gold.

1980
01:22:00,360 --> 01:22:03,230
♪♪

1981
01:22:03,280 --> 01:22:04,740
It seemed so long as Bitcoin

1982
01:22:04,820 --> 01:22:07,740
didn't compete
with the US dollar,

1983
01:22:07,780 --> 01:22:10,580
so long as governments could
monitor every transaction...

1984
01:22:10,620 --> 01:22:12,740
Let's do
a central bank digital currency.

1985
01:22:12,830 --> 01:22:14,080
Are you there?

1986
01:22:14,120 --> 01:22:15,460
Yes, I think it's time.

1987
01:22:15,790 --> 01:22:19,960
Hoback:
...so long as Bitcoin didn't
function like digital cash,

1988
01:22:20,040 --> 01:22:21,790
it would be allowed.

1989
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:23,420
Because
the Small Blocker solution

1990
01:22:23,500 --> 01:22:25,420
kind of required
government permission.

1991
01:22:25,510 --> 01:22:28,260
Taaki:
Those people who are like,
"We need Bitcoin

1992
01:22:28,300 --> 01:22:30,090
"to become, like,
well-established,

1993
01:22:30,180 --> 01:22:32,010
become accepted by the banks,"

1994
01:22:32,100 --> 01:22:34,770
they didn't realize that they
were, like, cutting this deal

1995
01:22:34,850 --> 01:22:37,270
which would compromise
some Bitcoin's values.

1996
01:22:37,350 --> 01:22:40,610
Hoback: In fact,
Maxis seemed more concerned

1997
01:22:40,690 --> 01:22:42,070
with Bitcoin
hitting a million dollars

1998
01:22:42,150 --> 01:22:43,520
than being usable as cash.

1999
01:22:43,610 --> 01:22:45,440
Mow:
To get to one million,
we should be going up,

2000
01:22:45,530 --> 01:22:47,450
on average, 10k a day.

2001
01:22:47,950 --> 01:22:50,110
Hoback:
And if Bitcoin hits
a million dollars,

2002
01:22:50,200 --> 01:22:52,120
then Satoshi becomes
a trillionaire.

2003
01:22:52,200 --> 01:22:54,580
O'Leary:
And there has been rumors

2004
01:22:54,620 --> 01:22:56,330
that maybe Satoshi
will weigh in.

2005
01:22:56,410 --> 01:22:58,540
Hoback:
With the stakes so high,

2006
01:22:58,620 --> 01:23:00,420
and with Bitcoin
being woven into

2007
01:23:00,500 --> 01:23:02,500
the fabric of
the financial system,

2008
01:23:02,590 --> 01:23:04,710
affecting everyone,

2009
01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:07,380
perhaps the question
of Satoshi's identity

2010
01:23:07,470 --> 01:23:10,300
was more pressing than ever.

2011
01:23:10,340 --> 01:23:13,600
(dramatic music playing)

2012
01:23:18,480 --> 01:23:19,890
(tense sting)

2013
01:23:21,480 --> 01:23:23,730
(birds flapping)

2014
01:23:33,320 --> 01:23:35,240
Peter's never taken you
on one of his...

2015
01:23:35,620 --> 01:23:38,870
-caving adventures before, Adam?
-No.

2016
01:23:40,370 --> 01:23:42,380
Civilization's ruins, eh?
(laughs)

2017
01:23:42,460 --> 01:23:45,210
-Hoback: (laughs) Yeah.
-End days.

2018
01:23:45,290 --> 01:23:48,590
Hoback:
When you look out on all this,
uh, abandoned shit,

2019
01:23:48,670 --> 01:23:50,340
what does it
make you think of?

2020
01:23:50,380 --> 01:23:53,050
Maybe, um,
a more decentralized future?

2021
01:23:53,430 --> 01:23:55,180
Geopolitically.

2022
01:23:55,220 --> 01:23:57,850
There's something to be said
for not breaking what--

2023
01:23:57,890 --> 01:24:00,850
Todd:
There's something to be said
for exploring this great place.

2024
01:24:00,940 --> 01:24:02,350
-Back: Okay.
-Todd: Without dying.

2025
01:24:02,440 --> 01:24:04,230
(Todd laughs)

2026
01:24:05,230 --> 01:24:08,900
Hoback:
So, there's a lot of
things that point to you,

2027
01:24:08,990 --> 01:24:10,950
Adam, being Satoshi,

2028
01:24:11,030 --> 01:24:14,530
and I had been spending some
time trying to disprove that.

2029
01:24:14,620 --> 01:24:16,120
You know,
like the Wikipedia edits?

2030
01:24:16,200 --> 01:24:18,540
Back:
It was because I was like,
why are you deleting this?

2031
01:24:18,620 --> 01:24:20,960
Bitcoin is a big deal. It's like
a clever invention, right?

2032
01:24:21,040 --> 01:24:24,040
Hoback:
You added suspects for Satoshi.

2033
01:24:24,130 --> 01:24:25,630
-Really?
-Hoback: Yeah.

2034
01:24:25,710 --> 01:24:28,210
Well, don't-don't just
agree with him. Ask for a proof.

2035
01:24:28,250 --> 01:24:31,090
That doesn't seem like something
very advisable to do.

2036
01:24:32,430 --> 01:24:33,680
There's, like,
old emails with you

2037
01:24:34,010 --> 01:24:37,100
commenting on Bitcoin
in pretty detailed terms.

2038
01:24:37,180 --> 01:24:38,970
-I mean--
-Hoback: It doesn't mean
that you're Satoshi.

2039
01:24:39,060 --> 01:24:40,850
-It just means that you were...
-Yeah. Well, I think--

2040
01:24:40,890 --> 01:24:42,770
Hoback:
...you were engaged before you
say you were engaged.

2041
01:24:42,850 --> 01:24:45,310
Anyway, like, you're missing
the biggest piece of evidence

2042
01:24:45,400 --> 01:24:46,770
that he's Satoshi of all.

2043
01:24:46,860 --> 01:24:48,650
Which is that he gets
on the Bitcoin Talk

2044
01:24:48,730 --> 01:24:50,570
in, what, 2012 or so? 2013?

2045
01:24:50,650 --> 01:24:52,400
-'13. Mm.
-Yeah, '13.

2046
01:24:52,490 --> 01:24:53,490
And, like, he's clueless!

2047
01:24:53,570 --> 01:24:54,950
Doesn't know anything
about Bitcoin!

2048
01:24:55,490 --> 01:24:56,910
Hoback:
This wasn't the first time

2049
01:24:56,990 --> 01:24:58,700
Peter had pointed
to this evidence.

2050
01:24:58,740 --> 01:25:00,660
Best evidence of him
being Satoshi.

2051
01:25:00,750 --> 01:25:02,660
-Of not being Satoshi.
-Todd: Being Satoshi.

2052
01:25:02,750 --> 01:25:06,250
Hoback: So, was his goal
to out Adam as Satoshi?

2053
01:25:06,290 --> 01:25:09,250
It's hard to know, right?
These agencies are sneaky.

2054
01:25:09,300 --> 01:25:12,590
Hoback:
Months earlier, I began
looking into Peter Todd,

2055
01:25:12,630 --> 01:25:14,800
trying to understand
his motives.

2056
01:25:14,880 --> 01:25:17,430
In particular, I'd focused
on the leaked email exchange

2057
01:25:17,510 --> 01:25:20,720
between Peter Todd
and John Dillon,

2058
01:25:20,770 --> 01:25:23,020
the supposed government agent
who had offered Peter

2059
01:25:23,100 --> 01:25:26,690
that ridiculous $500 reward
to create replace-by-fee.

2060
01:25:26,770 --> 01:25:29,480
John Dillon's email
had supposedly been hacked,

2061
01:25:29,570 --> 01:25:31,610
and their emails were leaked.

2062
01:25:31,650 --> 01:25:33,490
I wanna talk through the stuff

2063
01:25:33,570 --> 01:25:35,110
we were going over
the other night.

2064
01:25:35,150 --> 01:25:37,530
So, I called up an editor
on my team

2065
01:25:37,620 --> 01:25:39,280
to talk through
some of these clues.

2066
01:25:39,330 --> 01:25:40,950
This is
an encrypted email chain,

2067
01:25:41,040 --> 01:25:43,790
and this is all you do
with the hack

2068
01:25:43,830 --> 01:25:47,330
is release something that makes
Peter Todd look pretty good?

2069
01:25:47,790 --> 01:25:51,420
Uh, that, to me, that's part
of what started to really...

2070
01:25:51,500 --> 01:25:54,720
smell like maybe it was
the same person.

2071
01:25:54,800 --> 01:25:56,220
Going through the archives,

2072
01:25:56,300 --> 01:25:58,300
I discovered
I wasn't alone.

2073
01:25:58,390 --> 01:26:01,600
Gavin Andresen and some
of the folks at Blockstream,

2074
01:26:01,640 --> 01:26:04,140
they also suspected
they were the same person.

2075
01:26:04,180 --> 01:26:06,940
-I mean, why did you
create the John Dillon handle?
-I didn't.

2076
01:26:06,980 --> 01:26:08,560
-(Back laughs)
-Hoback: Come on!

2077
01:26:08,650 --> 01:26:10,730
Nope. Not me.

2078
01:26:10,820 --> 01:26:13,570
Hoback:
He was playing bad cop.
You're playing good cop.

2079
01:26:13,650 --> 01:26:16,240
Back:
So, my theory about John Dillon

2080
01:26:16,320 --> 01:26:18,570
is that Peter just enjoys
perverse game theory.

2081
01:26:18,660 --> 01:26:21,330
I don't enjoy perverse
game theory that much.

2082
01:26:21,410 --> 01:26:22,580
Although it was
certainly interesting

2083
01:26:22,660 --> 01:26:23,790
to get contacted by the guy.

2084
01:26:24,330 --> 01:26:27,170
-Okay.
-I certainly enjoyed
it enough to respond to him.

2085
01:26:27,210 --> 01:26:30,710
-(film crew laughing wildly)
-Back: Mm-hmm.

2086
01:26:30,790 --> 01:26:33,210
-Okay.
-Hoback: The only person
who believes Peter is Peter.

2087
01:26:33,300 --> 01:26:34,800
Yeah,
that's how it should be.

2088
01:26:34,840 --> 01:26:37,050
Hoback:
If Peter Todd wasn't
communicating

2089
01:26:37,130 --> 01:26:39,930
with a government agent,
and he just made this shit up,

2090
01:26:40,260 --> 01:26:43,010
then why concoct
such an elaborate scheme?

2091
01:26:43,100 --> 01:26:45,640
So, I went through everything
I could find on Peter Todd,

2092
01:26:45,730 --> 01:26:47,350
going back to his
earliest messages

2093
01:26:47,390 --> 01:26:49,190
on the Bitcoin Talk forum.

2094
01:26:49,230 --> 01:26:50,440
Now, Peter likes to suggest

2095
01:26:50,520 --> 01:26:52,400
that he didn't really get
involved with Bitcoin until...

2096
01:26:52,480 --> 01:26:55,280
2014. That's when I sort of
"quit the day job," if you will.

2097
01:26:55,360 --> 01:26:57,150
Hoback:
But, he had registered
all the way back

2098
01:26:57,240 --> 01:26:59,200
in December of 2010.

2099
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:00,240
The first thing he wrote

2100
01:27:00,320 --> 01:27:02,780
was just asking for
an invite to something.

2101
01:27:02,870 --> 01:27:05,160
But the next post,
a few days later,

2102
01:27:05,240 --> 01:27:06,700
was super technical.

2103
01:27:06,790 --> 01:27:10,040
And then, he doesn't
post again until 2012.

2104
01:27:10,750 --> 01:27:13,040
But, it's that
super technical post

2105
01:27:13,130 --> 01:27:17,840
that made me rethink
just about everything.

2106
01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:21,140
I was so taken aback,
I called my editor immediately.

2107
01:27:21,590 --> 01:27:24,890
Uh, so, I'm kind of embarrassed
I missed this.

2108
01:27:25,770 --> 01:27:29,350
So, his first post
is on December 7, 2010.

2109
01:27:29,390 --> 01:27:32,650
But then, three days later,
uh, he makes another post.

2110
01:27:33,060 --> 01:27:34,570
editor (on phone):
"Of course, to be specific,

2111
01:27:34,610 --> 01:27:36,730
"the inputs and outputs
can't match exactly

2112
01:27:36,820 --> 01:27:39,570
if the second transaction
has a transaction fee."

2113
01:27:39,610 --> 01:27:41,410
Seems like
he's responding to something.

2114
01:27:41,450 --> 01:27:43,030
(sighs) Yeah.

2115
01:27:43,910 --> 01:27:45,740
editor (on phone):
Oh, responding to Satoshi?

2116
01:27:45,830 --> 01:27:47,660
Hoback:
He's replying to Satoshi, yeah.

2117
01:27:47,750 --> 01:27:49,790
Yeah, like
an hour and a half later.

2118
01:27:50,960 --> 01:27:53,170
But, read it closely.

2119
01:27:53,710 --> 01:27:55,960
Is he responding, David?

2120
01:27:57,590 --> 01:27:59,760
Or is he continuing a thought?

2121
01:28:00,470 --> 01:28:03,010
(typing)

2122
01:28:09,270 --> 01:28:12,060
♪♪

2123
01:28:12,100 --> 01:28:16,650
So, Satoshi is proposing this,
like, future scheme

2124
01:28:16,730 --> 01:28:19,110
that hasn't been invented yet.

2125
01:28:19,150 --> 01:28:21,070
And Peter Todd

2126
01:28:21,150 --> 01:28:23,280
just kinda continues
that thought

2127
01:28:23,360 --> 01:28:24,990
an hour and a half later.

2128
01:28:25,660 --> 01:28:28,160
Someone who had
just created this account,

2129
01:28:28,240 --> 01:28:30,870
and never posted
about Bitcoin before,

2130
01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:33,790
was finishing
Satoshi's sentences?

2131
01:28:35,210 --> 01:28:37,710
With a deep fucking
knowledge of how,

2132
01:28:37,800 --> 01:28:40,300
wait for it,
replace-by-fee works.

2133
01:28:40,340 --> 01:28:42,050
That thing that Peter Todd

2134
01:28:42,130 --> 01:28:44,840
would one day invent
a character for.

2135
01:28:44,930 --> 01:28:46,640
It gets weirder though, David.

2136
01:28:46,720 --> 01:28:49,270
So, you know,
we've thought that, like,

2137
01:28:49,310 --> 01:28:52,890
Satoshi dropped off
of the Bitcoin Talk forums

2138
01:28:52,980 --> 01:28:54,900
because of WikiLeaks, right?

2139
01:28:54,980 --> 01:28:56,860
But, when would Satoshi

2140
01:28:56,940 --> 01:28:58,860
drop off the
Bitcoin Talk forum?

2141
01:28:59,480 --> 01:29:01,320
editor David (on phone):
Three days after Peter Todd

2142
01:29:01,360 --> 01:29:04,160
-replies or adds
on to this post.
-Hoback: That's right.

2143
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:07,870
You'll never see another post
from Satoshi ever again.

2144
01:29:08,160 --> 01:29:09,950
Three days after
joining the forum,

2145
01:29:09,990 --> 01:29:13,500
Peter Todd finishes
Satoshi's sentence,

2146
01:29:13,580 --> 01:29:15,330
and then disappears.

2147
01:29:15,370 --> 01:29:17,040
Alongside Satoshi.

2148
01:29:17,130 --> 01:29:18,670
♪♪

2149
01:29:18,710 --> 01:29:20,000
Here's what I think
might have happened.

2150
01:29:20,090 --> 01:29:23,590
He created this new account.

2151
01:29:23,670 --> 01:29:25,220
Then, a couple days later,
you know,

2152
01:29:25,590 --> 01:29:28,550
writes the Satoshi post,
logs out...

2153
01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:31,520
logs back in,
but doesn't log back in

2154
01:29:31,600 --> 01:29:33,140
with the correct account.

2155
01:29:33,180 --> 01:29:36,350
And he posts as Peter Todd
instead of Satoshi.

2156
01:29:36,400 --> 01:29:39,520
And then, makes a couple
more posts as Satoshi

2157
01:29:39,610 --> 01:29:40,860
'cause he doesn't want it
to look like

2158
01:29:40,940 --> 01:29:42,280
it's directly related to this.

2159
01:29:42,360 --> 01:29:45,320
And Peter Todd just evaporates
for two fucking years.

2160
01:29:46,910 --> 01:29:48,740
editor David (on phone):
That's, that's insane.

2161
01:29:48,830 --> 01:29:50,200
It's insane.

2162
01:29:51,490 --> 01:29:53,200
It was just so suspicious,

2163
01:29:53,250 --> 01:29:56,540
I wanted Peter to explain
how this was possible.

2164
01:29:56,580 --> 01:29:58,250
Satoshi's last post was, like,

2165
01:29:58,330 --> 01:30:00,960
one week after I signed up
for Bitcoin Talk.

2166
01:30:01,340 --> 01:30:02,670
But...

2167
01:30:02,960 --> 01:30:04,840
Hoback:
Right. And then,
you disappeared.

2168
01:30:05,260 --> 01:30:08,550
Yeah, then I disappeared.
(laughs)

2169
01:30:10,850 --> 01:30:13,390
And Satoshi disappeared
at the same time.

2170
01:30:13,470 --> 01:30:14,350
Todd:
Yeah.

2171
01:30:14,730 --> 01:30:17,060
I really should've paid more
attention to Bitcoin early on,

2172
01:30:17,150 --> 01:30:18,940
but, you know,
I had other stuff to do.

2173
01:30:19,020 --> 01:30:22,400
Y-You corrected Satoshi,
but it kind of looks more like

2174
01:30:22,480 --> 01:30:25,490
you were continuing
a thought of Satoshi.

2175
01:30:25,570 --> 01:30:28,410
Well, Satoshi made
a little brain fart on, like,

2176
01:30:28,490 --> 01:30:30,410
how exactly transactions work,

2177
01:30:30,490 --> 01:30:33,370
and I corrected him
on that very boring thing.

2178
01:30:33,580 --> 01:30:36,250
Hoback:
Why didn't you delete
the 2010 post?

2179
01:30:36,330 --> 01:30:37,580
Why would I?

2180
01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:39,130
Hoback:
Well,

2181
01:30:39,420 --> 01:30:42,380
I mean, 'cause it,
it just makes you look like

2182
01:30:42,420 --> 01:30:45,920
you had these deep insights
into Bitcoin at the time and--

2183
01:30:45,970 --> 01:30:47,930
Well, yeah.
I'm Satoshi Nakamoto.

2184
01:30:48,010 --> 01:30:50,090
Hoback:
I mean,

2185
01:30:50,140 --> 01:30:52,510
it's sort of the last thing
you'd expect Satoshi to say.

2186
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:53,720
Ah, but that's it.

2187
01:30:53,810 --> 01:30:55,100
That's like
the meta level, right?

2188
01:30:55,140 --> 01:30:57,690
Because I know you would
expect Satoshi Nakamoto

2189
01:30:57,770 --> 01:30:59,310
to delete the post.
You just said,

2190
01:30:59,400 --> 01:31:01,560
"Why didn't Satoshi Nakamoto
delete the post?"

2191
01:31:01,610 --> 01:31:04,440
-The post that was corrected?
-Yeah, yeah,
the correction post.

2192
01:31:04,530 --> 01:31:06,690
Right? But then,
I did the next level of meta

2193
01:31:06,780 --> 01:31:10,200
and then didn't delete the post
to go throw off people like you.

2194
01:31:11,200 --> 01:31:12,950
Hoback:
Peter sure remembered this post

2195
01:31:13,030 --> 01:31:15,580
he'd made 13 years ago
awfully well.

2196
01:31:16,660 --> 01:31:17,910
Yeah...

2197
01:31:17,960 --> 01:31:20,210
I don't know.
You're-You're feeding him, like,

2198
01:31:20,290 --> 01:31:23,420
-footage that's just gonna be--
-Yeah. Oh, it's gonna be great.

2199
01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:25,510
Hoback:
Peter Todd's strategy,

2200
01:31:25,590 --> 01:31:28,260
his game theory to
throw people off the trail...

2201
01:31:28,300 --> 01:31:31,260
-Oh, no, I am Satoshi.
I'm Satoshi Nakamoto.
-(Hoback laughs)

2202
01:31:31,340 --> 01:31:32,470
Hoback:
...was so effective,

2203
01:31:32,550 --> 01:31:34,180
I hadn't really
considered him a suspect.

2204
01:31:34,640 --> 01:31:37,060
In fact, just about
no one had considered him.

2205
01:31:37,140 --> 01:31:39,730
So, you don't think it's Peter?
You-- No way?

2206
01:31:39,810 --> 01:31:42,610
Peter's ruled out
way, way early on.

2207
01:31:42,650 --> 01:31:43,980
Hoback:
And even insinuating this

2208
01:31:44,020 --> 01:31:45,780
would get you laughed
off the forums.

2209
01:31:45,860 --> 01:31:48,070
Peter Todd was just
a little kid back then.

2210
01:31:48,150 --> 01:31:50,110
Hoback:
So, was it possible that

2211
01:31:50,200 --> 01:31:52,820
Peter Todd could be Satoshi?

2212
01:31:52,910 --> 01:31:54,910
When you start to, like,
run through all the,

2213
01:31:54,990 --> 01:31:56,120
all the scenarios,

2214
01:31:56,200 --> 01:31:59,040
it checks a lot of boxes.

2215
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:00,330
Satoshi wrote messages

2216
01:32:00,420 --> 01:32:02,790
like they were
on an academic calendar,

2217
01:32:02,880 --> 01:32:04,670
with more time in the summer.

2218
01:32:04,750 --> 01:32:06,840
I was off getting
a fine arts degree.

2219
01:32:06,920 --> 01:32:10,340
Hoback:
Then, there was the British
or Canadian writing style.

2220
01:32:10,430 --> 01:32:13,050
Todd:
There was something called
the Toronto Caving Group.

2221
01:32:13,140 --> 01:32:16,760
Hoback: In 2001,
when the dude is 15 or 16,

2222
01:32:16,850 --> 01:32:19,230
he is literally already
trying to figure out

2223
01:32:19,310 --> 01:32:21,810
how to turn Hashcash
into a currency.

2224
01:32:21,850 --> 01:32:23,980
After all,
I did try to invent Bitcoin.

2225
01:32:24,020 --> 01:32:26,270
And I'm not bitter that
Satoshi got there first.

2226
01:32:26,360 --> 01:32:29,110
You know, when I first
saw the Bitcoin code,

2227
01:32:29,190 --> 01:32:31,610
I was like, this is not
a professional programmer.

2228
01:32:31,700 --> 01:32:33,320
Hoback:
Which Peter Todd wasn't.

2229
01:32:33,410 --> 01:32:36,160
Experienced C++ coders
basically confirmed

2230
01:32:36,200 --> 01:32:37,990
that it could've been
written by either of you.

2231
01:32:38,040 --> 01:32:42,080
-So, do you think
I can write in C++?
-Hoback: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

2232
01:32:42,170 --> 01:32:44,790
Mm. That doesn't sound
like you've done your research.

2233
01:32:44,880 --> 01:32:46,170
-(Todd laughs)
-Yeah.

2234
01:32:46,500 --> 01:32:49,300
Hoback:
But, that old resume he tried
to scrub from the internet

2235
01:32:49,380 --> 01:32:52,880
showed that he'd coded
a system in C++ from scratch.

2236
01:32:53,300 --> 01:32:55,050
Why bother lying about this?

2237
01:32:55,090 --> 01:32:57,180
So, he's done a bit of,
bit of research. That's good.

2238
01:32:57,220 --> 01:32:59,890
Hoback:
And if you were like, 22
when you created Bitcoin,

2239
01:32:59,930 --> 01:33:02,850
imagine what it would do
to your psyche.

2240
01:33:02,890 --> 01:33:04,400
He's the contrarian
of contrarians.

2241
01:33:04,480 --> 01:33:07,070
I-I think people often,
often miss this nuance.

2242
01:33:07,150 --> 01:33:08,400
He always wants
to make sure he can prove

2243
01:33:08,440 --> 01:33:09,900
that he's the smartest guy
in the room.

2244
01:33:10,230 --> 01:33:11,530
Hoback:
Well, I think if it was a team,

2245
01:33:11,570 --> 01:33:13,070
it wouldn't have been
more than two people.

2246
01:33:13,150 --> 01:33:16,240
Didn't need even two people.
One could have written it.

2247
01:33:16,280 --> 01:33:18,830
Hoback:
But, who could Satoshi
trust with Bitcoin's future?

2248
01:33:18,910 --> 01:33:20,620
Adam Back
would keep the secret.

2249
01:33:20,950 --> 01:33:23,870
Hoback:
Maybe the first guy
that emailed back in 2008.

2250
01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:26,080
Or it could be
somebody younger.

2251
01:33:26,170 --> 01:33:27,420
Hoback:
The guy who, you know,

2252
01:33:27,460 --> 01:33:29,380
has sort of considered you
like a son.

2253
01:33:29,420 --> 01:33:30,550
Remind me again,
what's your source

2254
01:33:30,630 --> 01:33:32,170
for the "considered you
like a son" thing?

2255
01:33:32,260 --> 01:33:34,510
Hoback:
That was with you last time.

2256
01:33:34,590 --> 01:33:35,890
-Back: What?
-No.

2257
01:33:35,930 --> 01:33:37,930
I think he thinks
of you like a son.

2258
01:33:38,010 --> 01:33:39,220
A son. Yeah.

2259
01:33:39,310 --> 01:33:41,600
-(crosstalk)
-No, sorry. No, no offense,

2260
01:33:41,640 --> 01:33:43,520
I'm much closer
to Greg Maxwell than you.

2261
01:33:43,600 --> 01:33:45,060
Much closer.

2262
01:33:45,140 --> 01:33:48,820
Hoback:
Greg Maxwell, who co-founds
Blockstream with Adam Back.

2263
01:33:48,900 --> 01:33:50,110
This loose coupling
isn't inherent.

2264
01:33:50,150 --> 01:33:52,360
You can sort of pick
your degree of looseness.

2265
01:33:52,440 --> 01:33:53,860
Hoback:
Keeping Peter at
arm's length...

2266
01:33:53,950 --> 01:33:55,990
We talked about saying it
would actually be much better

2267
01:33:56,070 --> 01:33:57,570
if I didn't work
for Blockstream.

2268
01:33:57,660 --> 01:34:00,450
Hoback:
...in order to solve
Bitcoin's technical problems,

2269
01:34:00,540 --> 01:34:02,330
which they couldn't
do anonymously.

2270
01:34:02,410 --> 01:34:05,500
You need to give people space to
actually work on these issues.

2271
01:34:05,580 --> 01:34:07,420
Hoback:
But, they would need cover...

2272
01:34:07,460 --> 01:34:09,210
O'Leary:
Whoever had access
to Satoshi's email

2273
01:34:09,290 --> 01:34:12,090
was somewhat aligned
with Blockstream.

2274
01:34:12,170 --> 01:34:13,920
Hoback:
...to push back against Gavin.

2275
01:34:14,010 --> 01:34:15,760
We'll definitely
need to increase

2276
01:34:15,840 --> 01:34:17,300
the maximum block size.

2277
01:34:17,340 --> 01:34:18,640
That doesn't mean
you're the leader.

2278
01:34:18,680 --> 01:34:20,850
That just means you're the guy
who answers questions.

2279
01:34:20,930 --> 01:34:23,720
Hoback:
And here's the big one.

2280
01:34:23,810 --> 01:34:27,690
What if the real reason
for using the name Satoshi,

2281
01:34:27,770 --> 01:34:29,270
for the anonymity,

2282
01:34:29,310 --> 01:34:32,360
was so that people
could take Bitcoin seriously?

2283
01:34:32,860 --> 01:34:35,320
So they could believe
that it must have been created

2284
01:34:35,400 --> 01:34:38,070
by one of these
famous cryptographers,

2285
01:34:39,280 --> 01:34:42,120
and not some kid
still in school?

2286
01:34:43,410 --> 01:34:46,410
-So, here's what
I think happened.
-Todd: Hm?

2287
01:34:46,500 --> 01:34:49,000
-Possibly. Okay?
-Todd: Possibly.

2288
01:34:49,040 --> 01:34:51,630
I think that John Dillon...

2289
01:34:51,710 --> 01:34:52,710
(Todd snickers)

2290
01:34:52,800 --> 01:34:56,010
...was created
so that you would have an excuse

2291
01:34:56,050 --> 01:34:58,470
-to make replace-by-fee.
-(Todd laughing)

2292
01:34:58,550 --> 01:35:01,100
A concept which you had
envisioned years earlier,

2293
01:35:01,180 --> 01:35:04,470
-but you needed some kind
of cover in order to make.
-(laughing harder)

2294
01:35:04,520 --> 01:35:07,600
And you also needed some cover
for that 2010 post.

2295
01:35:07,690 --> 01:35:10,350
Todd:
(laughing) 2010 post? Please.

2296
01:35:10,810 --> 01:35:12,690
Yeah, because I was Satoshi?

2297
01:35:12,730 --> 01:35:14,190
Hoback:
I mean, yeah.

2298
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:16,610
You know, you're very concerned
about all the privacy stuff.

2299
01:35:16,690 --> 01:35:18,650
-(laughing)
-So, you reach out
to your old buddy Adam Back.

2300
01:35:18,700 --> 01:35:20,240
You say, we need to do
something about this,

2301
01:35:20,320 --> 01:35:22,280
but we need to pay the devs.

2302
01:35:22,370 --> 01:35:23,910
But you can't join Blockstream

2303
01:35:23,990 --> 01:35:26,450
-because it would look
too, uh, suspicious.
-(laughing harder)

2304
01:35:26,540 --> 01:35:29,420
-So, you don't.
-(sighs) I will admit,
you're pretty creative.

2305
01:35:29,500 --> 01:35:31,540
You come up with
some crazy theories.

2306
01:35:31,630 --> 01:35:32,790
It's ludicrous,

2307
01:35:32,880 --> 01:35:35,340
but it's the sort of theory
someone who spends their time

2308
01:35:35,420 --> 01:35:37,300
as a documentary journalist
would come up with.

2309
01:35:37,380 --> 01:35:39,300
So yeah, yeah. I'll say,
of course I'm Satoshi,

2310
01:35:39,380 --> 01:35:40,430
and I'm Craig Wright.

2311
01:35:40,510 --> 01:35:42,390
And yes,
I was definitely covering

2312
01:35:42,430 --> 01:35:44,220
that little bit about,
you know, fees

2313
01:35:44,310 --> 01:35:46,060
to go pretend to be Satoshi.

2314
01:35:46,140 --> 01:35:48,520
Or not Satoshi,
one or the other. (snickers)

2315
01:35:48,560 --> 01:35:52,230
Hoback:
Well, why make up
the whole John Dillon thing?

2316
01:35:52,310 --> 01:35:54,900
-Well, like I said,
I'm not John Dillon.
-Hoback: Okay.

2317
01:35:54,940 --> 01:35:57,440
Sorry. I'm not John Dillon.
I don't know who that is.

2318
01:35:57,530 --> 01:35:59,320
I'll warn you.
This is gonna be very funny

2319
01:35:59,400 --> 01:36:01,240
when you put this
into the documentary

2320
01:36:01,320 --> 01:36:02,990
and a bunch
of Bitcoiners watch it.

2321
01:36:03,070 --> 01:36:05,450
-Back: I think--
-Hoback: Well, I don't think
they would be very happy

2322
01:36:05,540 --> 01:36:07,370
with this conclusion because
you're pretty controversial

2323
01:36:07,450 --> 01:36:08,620
within the community
at this point.

2324
01:36:08,700 --> 01:36:11,080
No, I-I suspect a lot
of them will be very happy

2325
01:36:11,170 --> 01:36:12,420
if you go this route.

2326
01:36:12,460 --> 01:36:15,090
'Cause it's gonna be like
yet another example

2327
01:36:15,130 --> 01:36:17,460
of journalists
really missing the point,

2328
01:36:17,550 --> 01:36:18,800
in a way that's very funny.

2329
01:36:18,880 --> 01:36:20,340
Hoback:
What is the point?

2330
01:36:20,430 --> 01:36:22,800
The point is just to make
Bitcoin the global currency.

2331
01:36:22,890 --> 01:36:25,890
And people like you
being distracted by nonsense

2332
01:36:25,930 --> 01:36:28,020
can potentially
do good on that.

2333
01:36:28,100 --> 01:36:30,230
(somber music playing)

2334
01:36:32,730 --> 01:36:36,820
Hoback:
And it seemed this plan
was coming to life.

2335
01:36:36,900 --> 01:36:39,190
(applause)

2336
01:36:39,280 --> 01:36:40,400
With Wall Street's involvement

2337
01:36:40,490 --> 01:36:42,320
bringing Bitcoin
to new heights...

2338
01:36:48,290 --> 01:36:51,290
Hoback:
El Salvador found
itself in the black.

2339
01:36:51,330 --> 01:36:53,960
Suddenly, presidents
were taking Samson's calls.

2340
01:36:54,040 --> 01:36:55,380
(group speaking Spanish)

2341
01:36:55,460 --> 01:36:57,630
And Argentina's
newly elected president

2342
01:36:57,710 --> 01:37:00,300
shut down its central bank
and allowed people

2343
01:37:00,380 --> 01:37:02,430
to use Bitcoin
however they wanted.

2344
01:37:02,510 --> 01:37:05,300
Bitcoin was advancing
as a currency,

2345
01:37:05,340 --> 01:37:08,640
even if America throttled
its use as digital cash.

2346
01:37:09,470 --> 01:37:13,020
Maybe it wasn't the design that
made Bitcoin so unstoppable.

2347
01:37:13,560 --> 01:37:15,770
Maybe it was human nature.

2348
01:37:15,860 --> 01:37:17,980
Or just plain old greed.

2349
01:37:19,030 --> 01:37:20,570
Even Dr. Doom

2350
01:37:20,650 --> 01:37:23,360
launched his own
blockchain-based token.

2351
01:37:24,860 --> 01:37:27,740
Craig Wright was proven
to be a fraud in court,

2352
01:37:27,830 --> 01:37:30,200
but it required Adam
to finally release

2353
01:37:30,290 --> 01:37:32,160
his emails with Satoshi.

2354
01:37:32,250 --> 01:37:34,000
He had been telling the truth.

2355
01:37:34,080 --> 01:37:37,170
And as more of Satoshi's
conversations came to light,

2356
01:37:37,250 --> 01:37:39,500
so did the genius,

2357
01:37:39,590 --> 01:37:42,840
the struggles,
and the immaturity.

2358
01:37:44,010 --> 01:37:45,680
But, what about the stash?

2359
01:37:45,760 --> 01:37:47,850
Well, you know my--
I-I mean, I don't know for sure,

2360
01:37:47,930 --> 01:37:49,430
but, like, my suspicion is

2361
01:37:49,510 --> 01:37:52,480
Satoshi did, in fact, go destroy
all of Satoshi's ability

2362
01:37:52,560 --> 01:37:54,270
to prove who they were.

2363
01:37:54,640 --> 01:37:56,350
Hoback:
But, they hadn't
burned the coins.

2364
01:37:56,440 --> 01:37:57,980
(explosion blasts)

2365
01:37:58,060 --> 01:38:01,070
Or in a way, had they?

2366
01:38:01,150 --> 01:38:03,110
A few months after
confronting Peter,

2367
01:38:03,190 --> 01:38:04,990
I came across
this old chat log,

2368
01:38:05,030 --> 01:38:07,700
that someone probably
shouldn't have recorded,

2369
01:38:07,780 --> 01:38:09,080
where Peter says,

2370
01:38:09,160 --> 01:38:11,290
"I'm probably
the world-leading expert

2371
01:38:11,370 --> 01:38:13,330
"on how to sacrifice
your Bitcoins.

2372
01:38:13,410 --> 01:38:16,080
"And I've done exactly
one such sacrifice,

2373
01:38:16,170 --> 01:38:18,540
and I did it by hand."

2374
01:38:18,630 --> 01:38:19,670
♪♪

2375
01:38:19,750 --> 01:38:23,300
It was hard not to read
this as an admission.

2376
01:38:24,130 --> 01:38:25,720
Like Peter wanted
his inner circle

2377
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:29,680
to trust that he had, in fact,
sacrificed the Bitcoins,

2378
01:38:30,100 --> 01:38:32,350
and destroyed all access.

2379
01:38:33,100 --> 01:38:35,310
But, this wasn't proof.

2380
01:38:36,190 --> 01:38:38,230
It's Bitcoin.
Don't trust, verify.

2381
01:38:38,270 --> 01:38:40,520
And sometimes,
you can't verify.

2382
01:38:42,320 --> 01:38:43,740
Back:
Mm-hmm.

2383
01:38:43,820 --> 01:38:46,070
Hoback: And if Peter Todd
and his friends at Blockstream

2384
01:38:46,110 --> 01:38:48,820
were, in fact, behind Bitcoin,

2385
01:38:49,070 --> 01:38:51,490
would he remain an idealist?

2386
01:38:51,580 --> 01:38:53,370
Or was he still holding on

2387
01:38:53,410 --> 01:38:55,660
to the keys to
the world's fortune?

2388
01:38:56,830 --> 01:38:59,130
Just in case.

2389
01:39:00,170 --> 01:39:03,420
(dramatic music playing)

2390
01:39:17,230 --> 01:39:20,770
♪♪