1 00:00:10,257 --> 00:00:12,950 There are would-be murderers all round the world 2 00:00:13,896 --> 00:00:16,744 who want to kill you and me and themselves, 3 00:00:16,779 --> 00:00:23,945 because they are motivated by what they think is the highest ideal. 4 00:00:23,980 --> 00:00:26,387 Of course politics are important, 5 00:00:26,422 --> 00:00:31,105 lraq, Palestine, even social deprivation in Bradford, 6 00:00:31,140 --> 00:00:35,208 but as we wake up to this huge challenge to our civilised values 7 00:00:35,243 --> 00:00:42,012 don't lets forget the elephant in the room, an elephant called religion. 8 00:00:43,568 --> 00:00:50,893 The suicide bomber is convinced that in killing for his God, 9 00:00:50,894 --> 00:00:51,894 he will be fast-tracked to a special martyrs' heaven. 10 00:00:52,576 --> 00:00:54,881 This isn't just a problem of lslam. 11 00:00:54,916 --> 00:00:57,956 In this program I want to examine that dangerous thing 12 00:00:57,959 --> 00:01:02,059 that is common to Judaism and Christianity as well 13 00:01:02,193 --> 00:01:06,480 the process of nonthinking called faith. 14 00:01:08,127 --> 00:01:14,713 I am a scientist, and I believe there is a profound contradiction between science and religious belief. 15 00:01:14,748 --> 00:01:18,106 There is no well-demonstrated reason to believe in god 16 00:01:18,141 --> 00:01:26,038 and I think that the idea of a divine creator belittles the elegant reality of the universe. 17 00:01:26,979 --> 00:01:36,255 The 21st century should be an age of reason, yet irrational, militant faith is back on the march. 18 00:01:36,290 --> 00:01:41,955 Religious extremism is implicated in the world's most bitter and unending conflicts. 19 00:01:41,990 --> 00:01:47,871 "We want the non-Muslims off the lands of Mohammad. We want the kafir out of it." 20 00:01:47,906 --> 00:01:50,767 America, too, has its own fundamentalists. 21 00:01:50,802 --> 00:01:56,285 "The Issue for the next generation is going to be the islamification of Europe." 22 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,234 And in Britain, even as we live in the shadow of holy terror, 23 00:02:00,269 --> 00:02:05,317 our government wants to restrict our freedom to criticise religion. 24 00:02:06,924 --> 00:02:11,346 Science, we are told, should not tread on the toes of theology. 25 00:02:11,381 --> 00:02:16,059 But why should scientists tiptoe respectfully away? 26 00:02:16,094 --> 00:02:20,717 The time has come for the people of reason to say enough is enough. 27 00:02:20,752 --> 00:02:28,080 Religious faith discourages independent thought, it's divisive and it's dangerous. 28 00:02:28,081 --> 00:02:31,845 Root of All Evil? 29 00:02:38,417 --> 00:02:43,386 The God Delusion 30 00:02:45,230 --> 00:02:49,420 lt looks lovely doesn't it? Inoffensive and gentle. 31 00:02:49,455 --> 00:02:52,990 But isn't this the beginning of that slippery slope 32 00:02:52,995 --> 00:02:57,974 that leads to young men with rucksack bombs on the Tube? 33 00:03:01,056 --> 00:03:04,671 If you want to experience the mediaeval rituals of faith, 34 00:03:04,706 --> 00:03:08,845 the candle light, incense, music, important-sounding dead languages, 35 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,506 nobody does it better than the Catholics. 36 00:03:12,541 --> 00:03:21,631 At Lourdes in southern France, the assault on the senses appeals to us not to think, 37 00:03:21,666 --> 00:03:24,352 not to doubt, not to probe. 38 00:03:25,473 --> 00:03:33,926 And if we can retain our faith against the evidence, in the teeth of reality, the more virtuous we are. 39 00:03:33,961 --> 00:03:39,580 Pretty impressive sight isn't it? I could imagine finding it very seductive, 40 00:03:39,615 --> 00:03:45,940 partly because of the tremendous feeling of group solidarity that there must be. 41 00:03:45,975 --> 00:03:48,769 If you have the delusion that you're Napoleon, 42 00:03:48,804 --> 00:03:53,290 it must be fairly a lonely feeling because nobody else agrees with you. 43 00:03:53,325 --> 00:03:57,206 Your faith that you are Napoleon needs a lot of shoring up. 44 00:03:57,241 --> 00:04:03,806 But these people here, thousands of people all have exactly the same delusion, 45 00:04:03,841 --> 00:04:09,156 and that must give wonderful reinforcement to their faith. 46 00:04:14,427 --> 00:04:18,495 I used to think reason had won the war against superstition 47 00:04:18,530 --> 00:04:24,245 but it's quite shaking to witness the faithful droves trooping through Lourdes. 48 00:04:27,689 --> 00:04:32,760 This is a benign herd but it supports a backward belief system 49 00:04:32,795 --> 00:04:35,970 that I believe reason must challenge. 50 00:04:49,664 --> 00:04:52,092 Daylight reveals more of this shrine, 51 00:04:52,127 --> 00:04:57,008 where a myth is perpetuated that a virgin who gave birth, Christ's mother Mary, 52 00:04:57,043 --> 00:05:03,163 appeared here once to an impressionable, and I do mean impressionable, young girl. 53 00:05:05,233 --> 00:05:08,649 The faithful make the pilgrimage here because they believe 54 00:05:08,684 --> 00:05:14,620 that terrible afflictions can be cured by dragging their poor bodies up to a pool of water 55 00:05:14,655 --> 00:05:18,551 where the Virgin Mary made her miraculous appearance. 56 00:05:20,660 --> 00:05:25,032 In reality, they're probably more likely to catch something from thousands of other pilgrims 57 00:05:25,067 --> 00:05:27,694 who've wallowed in the same water. 58 00:05:37,724 --> 00:05:40,413 Is it something that Catholics feel they ought to do in their life, 59 00:05:40,448 --> 00:05:43,801 rather like Muslims going on the Hajj to Mecca? 60 00:05:43,836 --> 00:05:46,712 Well no, but you don't have to be a Catholic to do it you see, 61 00:05:46,747 --> 00:05:52,613 I know a lot of people that are not Catholics at all and they've been here. 62 00:05:57,873 --> 00:06:00,109 And what are you hoping to get out of it? 63 00:06:00,144 --> 00:06:05,288 Well I've got a lot out of it: I've got faith, I've got trust and a belief that 64 00:06:05,323 --> 00:06:09,642 there is a person out there who is stronger than any medical person. 65 00:06:09,677 --> 00:06:11,265 Right. What about a cure though? 66 00:06:14,245 --> 00:06:18,751 It may seem tough to question these poor desperate peoples' faith, 67 00:06:21,332 --> 00:06:25,048 but isn't bracing truth better than false hope? 68 00:06:27,838 --> 00:06:30,969 What is the evidence for any miracles? 69 00:06:31,748 --> 00:06:37,997 There are actually 66 declared miracles, there are about 2000 unexplained cures here, 70 00:06:38,032 --> 00:06:42,776 but then we would say there are millions of people who have been healed in different ways. 71 00:06:42,811 --> 00:06:45,862 healed in some sort of mental way? 72 00:06:45,897 --> 00:06:50,289 Healed in spiritual ways where people who have come to terms with their own particular situation, 73 00:06:50,324 --> 00:06:53,792 people who have rediscovered God in their lives again, 74 00:06:53,827 --> 00:06:57,426 people who have received a new grace here in Lourdes. 75 00:06:57,461 --> 00:07:00,096 So you tend to get about 80,000 people per year? 76 00:07:00,543 --> 00:07:03,065 About 80,000 sick pilgrims who come here every year. 77 00:07:03,100 --> 00:07:07,211 That's been going for more than a century now? About a century and half? - Yes. 78 00:07:07,246 --> 00:07:13,673 So, 80,000 per year, and of those 66 have been cured. I just want to.. 79 00:07:13,708 --> 00:07:16,305 ..you see the way I'm thinking. - Yep. 80 00:07:16,340 --> 00:07:19,540 So the hard fact is that over the years, 81 00:07:19,575 --> 00:07:24,348 with their millions of pilgrims, there have been 66 supposed miracles. 82 00:07:29,466 --> 00:07:27,606 Statistically, it adds up to no evidence at all. 83 00:07:27,641 --> 00:07:35,987 I cant help remarking that nobody has ever had a miraculous re-growing of a severed leg. 84 00:07:36,022 --> 00:07:39,596 The cures are always things that might have got better anyway. 85 00:07:41,256 --> 00:07:43,659 People lean on their faith as a crutch, 86 00:07:43,694 --> 00:07:47,809 but I fear that the comfort it provides is a shallow pretence, 87 00:07:47,844 --> 00:07:52,952 and I want to look at how the suspension of disbelief inherent in faith 88 00:07:52,987 --> 00:07:57,049 can lead to far more dangerous ideas beyond. 89 00:08:12,853 --> 00:08:19,796 People like to say that faith and science can live together side by side, but I don't think they can. 90 00:08:19,831 --> 00:08:21,950 They're deeply opposed. 91 00:08:24,166 --> 00:08:28,137 Science is a discipline of investigation and constructive doubt, 92 00:08:28,172 --> 00:08:33,549 questing with logic, evidence and reason to draw conclusions. 93 00:08:33,584 --> 00:08:40,790 Faith, by stark contrast, demands a positive suspension of critical faculties. 94 00:08:43,203 --> 00:08:50,538 Science proceeds by setting up hypotheses, ideas or models, and then attempts to disprove them. 95 00:08:50,573 --> 00:08:55,025 So a scientist is constantly asking questions, being sceptical. 96 00:08:56,734 --> 00:09:01,399 Religion is about turning untested belief into unshakable truth, 97 00:09:01,434 --> 00:09:06,372 through the power of institutions and the passage of time. 98 00:09:11,377 --> 00:09:16,386 Let me give you an example of this with a story of the assumption of Mary. 99 00:09:17,538 --> 00:09:23,593 Catholics believe that Jesus' mother Mary was so important she didn't physically die. 100 00:09:23,628 --> 00:09:30,179 lnstead, her body shot off into heaven when her life came to a natural end. 101 00:09:30,944 --> 00:09:37,221 Of course there is no evidence for this, even the Bible says nothing about how Mary died. 102 00:09:37,256 --> 00:09:43,724 The belief that her body was lifted into heaven emerged about six centuries after Jesus' time. 103 00:09:43,759 --> 00:09:48,398 Made up, like any tale, and spread by word of mouth. 104 00:09:48,433 --> 00:09:52,351 But it became established tradition. 105 00:09:52,386 --> 00:09:55,562 lt was handed down over centuries. 106 00:09:55,597 --> 00:09:58,466 And the odd thing about tradition is that the longer it's been going, 107 00:09:58,501 --> 00:10:01,019 the more people seem to take it seriously. 108 00:10:01,054 --> 00:10:06,573 lt's as though sheer passage of time makes something that was to begin with just made up, 109 00:10:06,608 --> 00:10:10,234 turns it into what people believe as a fact. 110 00:10:12,685 --> 00:10:19,290 By 1950, the tradition was so strongly established that it became official truth. 111 00:10:19,325 --> 00:10:21,601 It became authority. 112 00:10:23,112 --> 00:10:26,248 The Vatican decreed that Roman Catholics must now believe 113 00:10:26,283 --> 00:10:29,179 in the doctrine of the Assumption of the Virgin. 114 00:10:30,258 --> 00:10:34,301 Now if you had asked Pope Pious XII how he knew it was the truth, 115 00:10:34,336 --> 00:10:37,443 he would have said you had to take his word for it 116 00:10:37,478 --> 00:10:41,401 because it had been "revealed to him" by God. 117 00:10:42,202 --> 00:10:44,048 He shut himself away and thought about it. 118 00:10:44,083 --> 00:10:47,219 He just thought, private thoughts inside his own head, 119 00:10:47,254 --> 00:10:49,332 and convinced himself that, 120 00:10:49,367 --> 00:10:53,933 no doubt on tortuous theological grounds, that it just had to be so. 121 00:10:57,604 --> 00:10:59,305 None of this is particularly harmful 122 00:10:59,340 --> 00:11:02,359 when it is limited to the Virgin Mary going to heaven. 123 00:11:03,488 --> 00:11:06,622 But what about the Pope's personal convictions when it comes to, 124 00:11:06,657 --> 00:11:12,174 say, discouraging the use of condoms in AIDS-ridden Africa? 125 00:11:13,483 --> 00:11:16,577 Then, the power of the church through tradition, authority 126 00:11:16,612 --> 00:11:21,612 and revelation comes with an appalling human cost. 127 00:11:24,298 --> 00:11:26,677 It would be unfair to pick on the Catholics. 128 00:11:26,712 --> 00:11:28,868 All religions are up to the same tricks. 129 00:11:28,903 --> 00:11:34,081 It could be Muslim Imams issuing fatwahs, it's the same principle. 130 00:11:34,116 --> 00:11:39,578 It's issued by the authority, it then passes down through the ranks to parents, 131 00:11:39,613 --> 00:11:43,495 to children, and all without a shred of evidence. 132 00:11:50,397 --> 00:11:56,848 Unlike science, which sees it as a challenge, religion thrives on unsolved mystery. 133 00:11:56,883 --> 00:12:01,344 For early humanity, what was mysterious and unexplained was so vast 134 00:12:01,379 --> 00:12:03,898 that only an equally vast higher being, 135 00:12:03,933 --> 00:12:08,113 an Alpha male in the sky, could fill that gap. 136 00:12:10,703 --> 00:12:13,974 How would our ancestors have responded to the sunrise? 137 00:12:14,009 --> 00:12:19,352 There must be a fiery charioteer, a Sun God, to accept our sacrifices. 138 00:12:19,387 --> 00:12:25,398 A supreme being who, on the first day of creation, announced "let there be light". 139 00:12:28,049 --> 00:12:32,121 But scientific investigation has rolled back that mystery. 140 00:12:33,391 --> 00:12:36,865 Today we know the sun is a giant nuclear reactor. 141 00:12:36,900 --> 00:12:44,784 One of billions of stars pumping out electromagnetic radiation, heat and light. 142 00:12:46,300 --> 00:12:48,641 How do scientists know the things that they know 143 00:12:48,676 --> 00:12:51,092 about the world and the universe? 144 00:12:52,219 --> 00:12:56,426 How do we know, for instance, that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old 145 00:12:56,461 --> 00:13:00,014 and that it orbits the sun that nourishes it? 146 00:13:04,329 --> 00:13:09,385 How do we know that these dinosaurs are hundreds of millions of years old? 147 00:13:09,420 --> 00:13:11,319 The answer is evidence. 148 00:13:11,354 --> 00:13:15,855 Tons and tons of mutually supporting evidence. 149 00:13:19,421 --> 00:13:24,718 Science is about testing, comparing and corroborating this mass of evidence, 150 00:13:24,753 --> 00:13:30,050 and using it to update old theories of how things work. 151 00:13:31,579 --> 00:13:36,088 I do remember one formative influence in my undergraduate life. 152 00:13:36,123 --> 00:13:39,541 There was an elderly professor in my department 153 00:13:39,576 --> 00:13:44,816 who had been passionately keen on a particular theory for a number of years. 154 00:13:44,851 --> 00:13:47,968 And one day an American visiting researcher came, 155 00:13:48,003 --> 00:13:52,301 and he completely and utterly disproved our old man's hypothesis. 156 00:13:52,336 --> 00:13:56,484 The old man strode to the front, shook his hand and said, "My dear fellow, 157 00:13:56,519 --> 00:14:01,219 I wish to thank you. I have been wrong these 15 years." 158 00:14:01,254 --> 00:14:03,542 And we all clapped our hands raw. 159 00:14:03,577 --> 00:14:05,406 That was the scientific ideal 160 00:14:05,441 --> 00:14:08,048 of somebody who had a lot invested, 161 00:14:08,083 --> 00:14:10,630 a lifetime almost invested in a theory, 162 00:14:10,665 --> 00:14:14,257 and he was rejoicing that he had been shown wrong, 163 00:14:14,292 --> 00:14:17,709 and scientific truth had been advanced. 164 00:14:22,421 --> 00:14:27,324 So what does the overwhelming evidence of all these fossils tell sceptical science? 165 00:14:27,359 --> 00:14:34,105 How did we and every creature get here, in all our improbable diversity? 166 00:14:36,136 --> 00:14:43,195 In past centuries, humanity had no choice but to resort to a supernatural hypothesis. 167 00:14:43,230 --> 00:14:45,896 Among the many creation myths around the world, 168 00:14:45,931 --> 00:14:49,583 the Book of Genesis imagined a designer God 169 00:14:49,618 --> 00:14:54,842 who fashioned the world and life in just six days. 170 00:14:57,404 --> 00:15:04,611 Finally, in the 19th century, science pieced together what had really happened. 171 00:15:07,019 --> 00:15:10,469 Charles Darwin hit upon a truly brilliant idea 172 00:15:10,504 --> 00:15:13,621 that elegantly explains all of life on earth, 173 00:15:13,656 --> 00:15:19,710 without any need to invoke the supernatural or the divine. 174 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,565 Here's a helpful way to look at the problem Darwin faced. 175 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:36,389 Climbing a mountain. Let's call it Mount Improbable. 176 00:15:38,286 --> 00:15:44,059 Let's say at the bottom we have the simple bacterial beginnings of lifeon earth. 177 00:15:46,012 --> 00:15:51,487 At the top, man today, or any complicated piece of biology. 178 00:15:51,573 --> 00:15:54,359 So how did we get to the top? 179 00:15:55,173 --> 00:15:59,049 If it had happened by blind chance or by design, 180 00:15:59,084 --> 00:16:05,720 lt would be equivalent to leaping up a sheer cliff in a single bound. 181 00:16:05,755 --> 00:16:08,355 Utterly out of the question. 182 00:16:11,155 --> 00:16:14,060 If we come round the other side of Mount Improbable, 183 00:16:14,095 --> 00:16:16,348 we find something very different. 184 00:16:16,383 --> 00:16:19,489 Here, there is no sudden precipitous cliff, 185 00:16:19,524 --> 00:16:25,010 here there's a gentle slope, a gradient of evolution. 186 00:16:25,045 --> 00:16:31,400 All we have to do is put one foot in front of the other and we'll get to the top. 187 00:16:32,169 --> 00:16:36,829 Darwin's great insight was that life evolved steadily and slowly, 188 00:16:36,864 --> 00:16:41,296 inching its way gradually over four billion years. 189 00:16:42,759 --> 00:16:50,631 Natural selection, not a divine designer, was the sculptor of life. 190 00:16:58,445 --> 00:17:03,141 So evolution, driven by Darwin's motor of natural selection, 191 00:17:03,176 --> 00:17:06,533 gets us to the top of Mount Improbable. 192 00:17:06,568 --> 00:17:11,805 From primeval simplicity to ultimate complexity. 193 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,725 The design hypothesis couldn't even begin to do that, 194 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,814 because it raises an even bigger problem than it solves: 195 00:17:19,849 --> 00:17:23,272 who made the designer? 196 00:17:24,693 --> 00:17:28,849 The abundance and variety of life on earth may seem improbable 197 00:17:28,884 --> 00:17:33,024 but it's self-evidently futile to invent an improbable god 198 00:17:33,059 --> 00:17:36,485 to explain that very improbability. 199 00:17:39,174 --> 00:17:42,254 l thought that in my lifetime evolution would be accepted 200 00:17:42,289 --> 00:17:45,426 and taught around the world as a scientific fact, 201 00:17:45,461 --> 00:17:48,600 supported by overwhelming evidence. 202 00:17:48,635 --> 00:17:51,845 But unfortunately, the whole point about faith 203 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:59,020 is that even massive and constantly accumulating physical evidence cuts no ice. 204 00:17:59,055 --> 00:18:03,160 Evolution today is under threat. 205 00:18:05,566 --> 00:18:07,832 ln the Bible Belt of middle America, 206 00:18:07,867 --> 00:18:12,602 evangelical Christians are fighting back against science. 207 00:18:21,716 --> 00:18:25,029 In the new world, religion is free enterprise. 208 00:18:25,064 --> 00:18:27,910 Rival groups set up shop on every street corner, 209 00:18:27,945 --> 00:18:33,134 competing to save people's souls and collect their money. 210 00:18:37,614 --> 00:18:41,180 Fundamentalist Christianity is on the rise among the electorate 211 00:18:41,215 --> 00:18:43,430 of the world's only super power. 212 00:18:43,465 --> 00:18:46,978 Right up to and including the President (Bush). 213 00:18:47,966 --> 00:18:51,774 If you believe the surveys, 45% of Americans, 214 00:18:51,809 --> 00:18:55,139 that's about 135 million people, 215 00:18:55,174 --> 00:18:59,818 believe the universe is less than 10,000 years old. 216 00:19:13,404 --> 00:19:16,902 This is the New Life Church in Colorado Springs. 217 00:19:16,937 --> 00:19:18,964 Where conservative Christians have built 218 00:19:18,999 --> 00:19:21,503 an 18 million dollar worship center 219 00:19:21,538 --> 00:19:26,204 as their new Jerusalem, in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains. 220 00:19:28,288 --> 00:19:31,505 Evangelical churches like this have become a powerful lobby, 221 00:19:31,540 --> 00:19:35,071 exerting enormous influence on everything in America 222 00:19:35,106 --> 00:19:40,358 from the teaching of science in schools, to foreign policy. 223 00:19:45,889 --> 00:19:48,230 This place strains belief. 224 00:19:49,073 --> 00:19:52,510 It isn't just a church but a ready-made social network. 225 00:19:54,477 --> 00:20:00,209 The 12,000 strong congregation can also attend 1,300 organized programs 226 00:20:00,244 --> 00:20:02,821 where they can meet to exchange Christian tips 227 00:20:02,856 --> 00:20:05,994 on everything from marriage to dog walking. 228 00:20:11,926 --> 00:20:14,674 It's all terribly exuberant and intense. 229 00:20:14,709 --> 00:20:16,996 Much less tradition here than in Lourdes, 230 00:20:18,078 --> 00:20:21,223 but plenty of swaggering authority. 231 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,613 The pastor is Ted Haggard. A powerful man. 232 00:20:32,648 --> 00:20:35,908 Chairman of the National Association of Evangelicals 233 00:20:35,943 --> 00:20:40,883 and the New Life is Ted's evangelical Vatican. 234 00:20:40,918 --> 00:20:43,711 "Welcome to all of our friends! 235 00:20:43,746 --> 00:20:46,011 Take a moment and say hello to the people behind you, 236 00:20:46,046 --> 00:20:49,159 in front of you, to your right, to your left." 237 00:20:50,512 --> 00:20:53,624 "Hey we wanna welcome all of you that are visiting here with us today, 238 00:20:53,659 --> 00:20:55,086 if you are here for the very first time," 239 00:20:55,121 --> 00:20:57,929 "we have a packet of information that we wanna give to you.." 240 00:21:00,764 --> 00:21:03,968 Sadly, the warmth of the welcome would prove short-lived 241 00:21:04,003 --> 00:21:09,103 when I started talking to Pastor Haggard about the Bible and scientific fact. 242 00:21:10,148 --> 00:21:13,492 You will find yourself wrong on some things, right on some other things. 243 00:21:13,527 --> 00:21:17,007 But please, in the process of it. DonŽt be arogant. 244 00:21:28,042 --> 00:21:30,618 We exalt you here this morning, Lord God. 245 00:21:30,653 --> 00:21:34,229 Everything that's within us wants to give you praise and glory and honor, 246 00:21:34,264 --> 00:21:36,521 'cos we are so grateful for.. 247 00:21:36,556 --> 00:21:38,601 The New Life Church in Colorado Springs 248 00:21:38,636 --> 00:21:42,005 is a bastion of American religious conservatism. 249 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,793 "Thank you for transforming our lives. Thank you, Lord God, for.." 250 00:21:45,828 --> 00:21:51,311 I've come to try to understand why what I see as irrational faith is thriving. 251 00:21:51,346 --> 00:21:54,172 And why it's attacking science. 252 00:21:54,572 --> 00:21:57,066 " ..and in Jesus' name we pray. And everybody says Amen!" 253 00:21:57,101 --> 00:21:58,118 "Amen!" 254 00:21:58,153 --> 00:22:01,182 "Welcome to the United States!" - Thank you very much. 255 00:22:01,217 --> 00:22:06,130 Pastor Ted Haggard has a hotline to God and to George Bush. 256 00:22:06,165 --> 00:22:10,909 A staunch Republican, he claims he has a weekly conference call with the President, 257 00:22:10,944 --> 00:22:15,472 and has also rubbed shoulders with Tony Blair and Ariel Sharon. 258 00:22:16,361 --> 00:22:18,332 Well that was really quite a show you gave us today. 259 00:22:18,367 --> 00:22:20,391 A fair bit of money seems to have been spent here. 260 00:22:20,426 --> 00:22:24,905 Yes. I wanted people to be able to worship and enjoy it, 261 00:22:24,940 --> 00:22:28,350 and be in a setting where the speaker is close to them, 262 00:22:28,385 --> 00:22:31,514 that's why it's in the round, and so they can be up close to me 263 00:22:31,549 --> 00:22:32,650 and so l can look at them. 264 00:22:32,685 --> 00:22:34,781 Well it's certainly very effective, what you do, 265 00:22:34,816 --> 00:22:37,868 I mean, it seemed to me you have all the arts of .. 266 00:22:37,903 --> 00:22:39,313 I mean, I was almost reminded me, 267 00:22:39,348 --> 00:22:41,569 if you'll forgive me, of a sort of Nuremberg rally. I mean.. 268 00:22:41,604 --> 00:22:42,987 such incredibly.. 269 00:22:43,022 --> 00:22:45,241 Doctor Goebbels would have been proud. 270 00:22:45,276 --> 00:22:47,788 Well I don't know anything about the Nuremberg rallies, 271 00:22:47,823 --> 00:22:50,972 but I know lots of Americans think of it as a rock concert. 272 00:23:12,732 --> 00:23:14,303 When I prepare a presentation, 273 00:23:14,338 --> 00:23:17,683 I don't prepare it to get a group of lunatics to come in 274 00:23:17,718 --> 00:23:20,325 and just say "oh yes Pastor Ted, you're just so wonderful, 275 00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:21,787 I believe everything you say". 276 00:23:21,822 --> 00:23:23,382 I would be opposed to that. 277 00:23:23,417 --> 00:23:25,013 "Here the Bible says:.." 278 00:23:25,048 --> 00:23:29,603 "..who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father.." 279 00:23:29,638 --> 00:23:33,763 this is talking about us, "we've been chosen for.." 280 00:23:33,798 --> 00:23:35,538 "What's that word there Betty?" 281 00:23:35,573 --> 00:23:37,318 - "Obedience." - "Say it out loud." 282 00:23:37,353 --> 00:23:39,665 - "Obedience!" - "Okay, so we have been chosen.." 283 00:23:39,700 --> 00:23:45,168 Every person needs, at the center, some sense of meaning about existence. 284 00:23:45,883 --> 00:23:48,617 It is life and death to us. It makes us who we are. 285 00:23:49,152 --> 00:23:52,527 Yet most of us, as we grow up and become responsible adults, 286 00:23:52,562 --> 00:23:56,638 accept that life is complex, that we live in a world of subtle shades, 287 00:23:56,673 --> 00:23:58,860 not sharp black and white. 288 00:23:58,895 --> 00:24:01,304 I worry that these born-agains 289 00:24:01,339 --> 00:24:05,862 are being persuaded to return to childish certainties. 290 00:24:05,897 --> 00:24:08,386 The only truth they need is God, 291 00:24:08,421 --> 00:24:12,052 God as interpreted for them by their pastor. 292 00:24:12,087 --> 00:24:14,462 "You've been set free from sin!" 293 00:24:14,497 --> 00:24:15,319 "Think about that!" 294 00:24:15,354 --> 00:24:18,124 Everybody knows that we believe the Bible's the word of God. 295 00:24:18,159 --> 00:24:22,617 And today I talked about love your neighbor as yourself. 296 00:24:22,652 --> 00:24:25,973 Now, I didn't have to produce evidence, 297 00:24:26,008 --> 00:24:28,762 sociological evidence or psychological evidence.. 298 00:24:28,797 --> 00:24:29,484 But you have a book, 299 00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:31,652 How can you say they're asked to think for themselves.. 300 00:24:31,687 --> 00:24:33,369 ..and they're told everything in this book is true? 301 00:24:33,404 --> 00:24:34,825 Because they don't have to believe that. 302 00:24:34,860 --> 00:24:37,656 The evidence that I presented you can go and read. 303 00:24:37,691 --> 00:24:38,721 This book, it says one thing, 304 00:24:38,756 --> 00:24:40,083 that book says another, that book says another, 305 00:24:40,118 --> 00:24:41,500 that book contradicts the others.. 306 00:24:41,535 --> 00:24:43,303 Well the evidence I can present is we've got a book, 307 00:24:43,338 --> 00:24:45,904 written over 1500 years by 40 different authors, 308 00:24:45,939 --> 00:24:48,773 on one subject, and it doesn't contradict itself. 309 00:24:48,808 --> 00:24:49,460 It doesn't? 310 00:24:49,495 --> 00:24:51,198 Where you cant give me two, 311 00:24:51,233 --> 00:24:55,812 two experts in certain areas that are in the same generation, 312 00:24:55,847 --> 00:24:58,619 in the same area of study, that don't contradict themselves. 313 00:24:58,654 --> 00:24:59,578 That's the beauty of science. 314 00:24:59,613 --> 00:25:02,898 We have lots of evidence, and the evidence is all the time coming in, 315 00:25:02,933 --> 00:25:05,002 constantly changing our minds. 316 00:25:05,037 --> 00:25:08,446 Whereas you have one book which you say it doesn't change.. 317 00:25:08,481 --> 00:25:09,054 Exactly. 318 00:25:09,089 --> 00:25:10,816 That's not getting them to think for themselves! 319 00:25:10,851 --> 00:25:14,006 ..and we've all decided as a group, to go to the holy place. True or false? 320 00:25:14,041 --> 00:25:14,697 (Congregatlon) True! 321 00:25:14,732 --> 00:25:17,403 True! Everybody say TRUE! 322 00:25:17,438 --> 00:25:17,949 "TRUE!" 323 00:25:17,984 --> 00:25:20,046 Alright then. That's the vote.. 324 00:25:20,081 --> 00:25:23,299 But my biggest concern is that evangelicals like Haggard 325 00:25:23,334 --> 00:25:26,442 are foisting evident falsehoods on their flock. 326 00:25:26,477 --> 00:25:28,988 "..are so wonderful, and so necessary, that I wanna.." 327 00:25:29,023 --> 00:25:31,651 The evangelicals are denying scientific evidence 328 00:25:31,686 --> 00:25:34,862 just to support Bronze Age myths. 329 00:25:34,897 --> 00:25:39,480 "..alive in our lives. And then of course, we need the power of the Holy Spirit." 330 00:25:39,515 --> 00:25:43,171 We fully embrace the scientific method, as American evangelicals. 331 00:25:43,206 --> 00:25:48,069 And we think, as time goes along, as we discover more and more facts 332 00:25:48,104 --> 00:25:52,266 that we'll learn more and more about how God created the heavens and the Earth. 333 00:25:52,301 --> 00:25:53,857 The scientific method clearly demonstrates 334 00:25:53,892 --> 00:25:57,008 that the world is 4.5 billion years old. I mean, do you accept that? 335 00:25:57,043 --> 00:26:02,202 Yeah, you know what you're doing is you are accepting some of the views 336 00:26:02,237 --> 00:26:05,967 that are accepted in some portions of the scientific community, as fact. 337 00:26:06,002 --> 00:26:10,088 Where in fact, your grandchildren might listen 338 00:26:10,123 --> 00:26:12,175 to the tape of you saying that and laugh at you. 339 00:26:12,210 --> 00:26:12,978 You want a bet? 340 00:26:13,013 --> 00:26:17,915 Sometimes it's hard for human being to study the ear or study the eye, 341 00:26:17,950 --> 00:26:20,253 and think that happened by accident. 342 00:26:20,288 --> 00:26:22,871 I beg you pardon? Did you say by accident? 343 00:26:22,906 --> 00:26:24,706 - Yeah. - What do you mean, by accident? 344 00:26:24,741 --> 00:26:26,600 That the eye just formed itself somehow. 345 00:26:26,635 --> 00:26:29,244 - And who says it did? - Well, some evolutionists say it did. 346 00:26:29,279 --> 00:26:31,000 Not a single one that l've ever met. 347 00:26:31,035 --> 00:26:32,346 - Really? - Really. 348 00:26:32,381 --> 00:26:35,135 You obviously know nothing about the subject of evolution. 349 00:26:35,170 --> 00:26:37,240 Or maybe you haven't met the people I have. 350 00:26:37,275 --> 00:26:42,501 But you see, you do understand, you do understand that this issue right here 351 00:26:42,536 --> 00:26:45,935 of intellectual arrogance is the reason 352 00:26:45,970 --> 00:26:50,800 why people like you have a difficult problem with people of faith. 353 00:26:50,835 --> 00:26:55,588 I don't communicate an air of superiority over the people 354 00:26:55,623 --> 00:26:57,545 because I know so much more, 355 00:26:57,580 --> 00:26:59,496 and if you only read the books I know, 356 00:26:59,531 --> 00:27:01,661 and if you only knew the scientists I knew, 357 00:27:01,696 --> 00:27:03,919 then you would be great like me. 358 00:27:03,954 --> 00:27:08,241 Well, sir, there could be many things that you know well. 359 00:27:08,276 --> 00:27:10,480 There are other things that you don't know well. 360 00:27:10,515 --> 00:27:13,639 As you age, you'll find yourself wrong on some things, 361 00:27:13,674 --> 00:27:15,186 right on some other things. 362 00:27:15,221 --> 00:27:19,157 But please, in the process, of it don't be arrogant. 363 00:27:24,591 --> 00:27:26,493 We just had a rather disconcerting experience. 364 00:27:26,528 --> 00:27:29,581 We were just packing up our stuff ready to go, 365 00:27:29,616 --> 00:27:33,640 when he suddenly drove up in his pick up truck and said, 366 00:27:33,675 --> 00:27:38,626 "Get of my land immediatelly", "IŽll have you thrown in jail" and "IŽll have seize your film". 367 00:27:38,661 --> 00:27:40,420 And he then says a very curious thing, he said, 368 00:27:40,455 --> 00:27:42,710 "You called my children animals." 369 00:27:42,745 --> 00:27:45,712 Afterwards we worked out, that what he must have meant, 370 00:27:45,747 --> 00:27:47,820 was that I talked about evolution. 371 00:27:47,855 --> 00:27:51,009 He thought that I was saying, that his flock were animals. 372 00:27:51,044 --> 00:27:53,972 Which of course in some sense I was, because all humans are all animals. 373 00:28:14,046 --> 00:28:15,261 Haggard's approach is to say 374 00:28:15,296 --> 00:28:18,328 let's teach evolution as just another theory 375 00:28:18,363 --> 00:28:20,940 alongside the Bible's creation story. 376 00:28:20,975 --> 00:28:26,136 Or so-called Intelligent Design, which claims God helped evolution along. 377 00:28:26,171 --> 00:28:29,008 It sounds so reasonable, doesn't it? 378 00:28:33,970 --> 00:28:36,057 But of course it's nothing of the sort. 379 00:28:36,092 --> 00:28:38,064 These are not equal theories. 380 00:28:38,099 --> 00:28:43,182 Evolution by natural selection is supported by mountains of evidence. 381 00:28:52,661 --> 00:28:45,534 While creation contradicts the evidence 382 00:28:45,569 --> 00:28:49,294 and is only backed by some ancient scribblings. 383 00:28:52,558 --> 00:28:54,870 With Haggard and his followers on their doorstep, 384 00:28:54,905 --> 00:28:58,240 the rational atheist minority here feel so browbeaten, 385 00:28:58,275 --> 00:29:01,937 that they've organized themselves into what they call "a freethinkers group", 386 00:29:01,972 --> 00:29:07,449 which meets furtively, perhaps to fantasise about moving to Canada! 387 00:29:07,484 --> 00:29:09,116 How nice to meet you! 388 00:29:09,151 --> 00:29:12,289 Hey Richard! lt's wonderful! Welcome, welcome, it's so good.. 389 00:29:12,324 --> 00:29:15,155 Do freethinkers in America feel pretty beleaguered at the moment? 390 00:29:15,190 --> 00:29:20,801 I've had my fair share of vitriolic letters and messages from parents 391 00:29:20,836 --> 00:29:24,909 saying that I'm Satan's incarnate for teaching evolution, 392 00:29:24,944 --> 00:29:28,024 and there are ministries here in Colorado Springs that indoctrinate 393 00:29:28,059 --> 00:29:32,358 students in summer programs to challenge biologists, 394 00:29:32,393 --> 00:29:35,605 biology teachers, in the classroom. And I've.. 395 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,789 So it's an organised campaign to challenge biology teachers? 396 00:29:37,824 --> 00:29:40,535 Oh they're organised campaigns, absolutely. I do not tolerate it, because I.. 397 00:29:40,570 --> 00:29:42,643 But they have this mindset that they are right. 398 00:29:42,678 --> 00:29:45,576 If a person comes out in this country as an atheist, 399 00:29:45,611 --> 00:29:47,884 they're likely to suffer career damage, 400 00:29:47,919 --> 00:29:50,479 they might lose a job, they might not get a job, 401 00:29:50,514 --> 00:29:53,009 they might lose an opportunity for an apartment. 402 00:29:53,044 --> 00:29:55,187 Waking up, as most Americans do, 403 00:29:55,222 --> 00:29:58,715 very late on this, coming to a realisation, 404 00:29:58,750 --> 00:30:02,665 as we did during the McCarthy era, and even during.. 405 00:30:02,700 --> 00:30:04,052 It's very similar to the McCarthy era.. 406 00:30:04,087 --> 00:30:09,778 Yes, it is. We do begin now to see the dangers of this extremism. 407 00:30:09,813 --> 00:30:11,313 Christian fascism isn't it? 408 00:30:11,348 --> 00:30:15,288 Yeah. And whatever mantle you want to give it, which I've heard lately 409 00:30:15,323 --> 00:30:19,894 is "domination theology", "dominion Christianity".. 410 00:30:19,929 --> 00:30:32,598 (Christian radio advertisements) 411 00:30:32,633 --> 00:30:36,776 Fundamentalist American Christianity is attacking science. 412 00:30:36,811 --> 00:30:38,941 But what is it offering instead? 413 00:30:38,976 --> 00:30:44,436 A mirror-image of islamic extremism, an American Taliban. 414 00:30:49,995 --> 00:30:53,099 We live in a time of lethal polarisation. 415 00:30:53,134 --> 00:30:56,420 When the great religions are pushing their conflict to a point where 416 00:30:56,455 --> 00:30:59,767 it is difficult to see how they can ever been reconciled. 417 00:30:59,802 --> 00:31:04,548 In New York, Madrid and London we've witnessed the religious insanities 418 00:31:04,583 --> 00:31:08,293 of the Middle East penetrate the heart of the secular west. 419 00:31:08,328 --> 00:31:13,539 (George W Bush voiceover) 420 00:31:13,574 --> 00:31:16,902 To understand the likes of Osama Bin Laden, you have to realise 421 00:31:16,937 --> 00:31:19,716 that the religious terrorism they inspire 422 00:31:19,751 --> 00:31:23,278 is the logical outcome of deeply-held faith. 423 00:31:23,313 --> 00:31:25,323 Even so-called moderate believers 424 00:31:25,358 --> 00:31:27,769 are part of the same religious fabric. 425 00:31:27,804 --> 00:31:32,076 They encourage unreason as a positive virtue. 426 00:31:34,936 --> 00:31:37,755 What's really scary is that religious warriors think 427 00:31:37,790 --> 00:31:40,575 of what they are doing as the ultimate good. 428 00:31:40,610 --> 00:31:44,136 Those of us brought up in Christianity can soon get the message: 429 00:31:44,171 --> 00:31:46,859 'Onward Christian soldiers', 'fight the good fight', 430 00:31:46,894 --> 00:31:50,873 'stand up! stand up for Jesus, ye soldiers of the cross!' 431 00:31:50,908 --> 00:31:52,526 But as far as I'm concerned, 432 00:31:52,561 --> 00:31:54,989 the war between good and evil, 433 00:31:55,024 --> 00:31:58,721 is really just the war between two evils. 434 00:32:03,450 --> 00:32:05,155 This is the holy land, 435 00:32:05,190 --> 00:32:10,127 where the terrible certainties of faith began and still rage. 436 00:32:11,722 --> 00:32:15,657 I've come here because it's a microcosm of the religious conflicts 437 00:32:15,692 --> 00:32:20,206 which threaten rational values and civilisation. 438 00:32:22,751 --> 00:32:26,906 The dreadful combination of politics and extreme faith has caused the 439 00:32:26,941 --> 00:32:30,366 death of almost 4000 people here, in shootings, 440 00:32:30,401 --> 00:32:34,965 suicide bombings and reprisals in the last five years. 441 00:32:48,096 --> 00:32:49,650 Despite the troubles, 442 00:32:49,685 --> 00:32:51,933 tourists still flock to Jerusalem, 443 00:32:51,968 --> 00:32:56,956 to places that their particular brand of religion taught them to revere as a child. 444 00:32:56,991 --> 00:33:00,043 The Via Dolorosa, where Jesus was allegedly whipped 445 00:33:00,078 --> 00:33:03,003 and beaten during the last hours of his life. 446 00:33:04,159 --> 00:33:06,335 Or the Muslim Dome of the Rock. 447 00:33:09,879 --> 00:33:15,656 Or the Western Wall, Judaism's, and the world's, most holy ruin. 448 00:33:36,259 --> 00:33:39,107 On the surface, it looks like a place of harmless myth. 449 00:33:39,142 --> 00:33:41,632 Because here is the hill of Calvary, 450 00:33:41,667 --> 00:33:44,752 where Jesus was crucified, and the tomb of Jesus. 451 00:33:44,787 --> 00:33:47,504 And here, what we are facing, 452 00:33:47,539 --> 00:33:50,302 to the stone of anointment, where the body of 453 00:33:50,337 --> 00:33:53,127 Jesus was taken down from the cross, 454 00:33:53,162 --> 00:33:57,092 so this is the slab where Christ's body was anointed with oil. 455 00:33:57,127 --> 00:34:00,487 How do we know that? Is there any evidence that it was here? 456 00:34:00,522 --> 00:34:03,258 You see, this is by telling from person to person. 457 00:34:03,293 --> 00:34:04,270 It's tradition. 458 00:34:04,305 --> 00:34:06,467 Traditional, from generation to the next. 459 00:34:06,502 --> 00:34:11,850 We can see the hole where the cross was stood, 460 00:34:11,885 --> 00:34:14,561 Where they put(ing) the cross inside the hole, 461 00:34:14,596 --> 00:34:18,441 and this is the place where, the place of the crucifixion, 462 00:34:18,476 --> 00:34:20,753 where Jesus died on the cross. 463 00:34:20,788 --> 00:34:22,939 You don't really believe that, do you? 464 00:34:22,974 --> 00:34:25,131 Ah, this is the Christians, as I explained to you that they believe, 465 00:34:25,166 --> 00:34:27,787 this is the place where the crucifixion took place. 466 00:34:27,822 --> 00:34:31,409 lf we come in closer to my side please, thank you. 467 00:34:31,444 --> 00:34:36,755 [The] guard of the tomb is a Greek priest. Guarding of tomb of Jesus. 468 00:34:36,790 --> 00:34:40,860 This is left from big part of the stone which closed the tomb, 469 00:34:40,895 --> 00:34:44,403 What we call the rolling of angels. 470 00:34:46,156 --> 00:34:49,059 Watch your head please, thank you very much. 471 00:34:51,373 --> 00:34:54,077 This is where he stayed, and rose from death, 472 00:34:54,112 --> 00:34:57,373 we call it Sepulchre, is empty tomb. 473 00:34:59,002 --> 00:35:01,291 God bless you, you can touch[ing] the tomb, 474 00:35:01,326 --> 00:35:03,187 you can make your prayer. 475 00:35:04,479 --> 00:35:07,909 I get four days off! You come here tomorrow.. 476 00:35:09,996 --> 00:35:14,653 This holy city has to be one of the least enlightened places in the world. 477 00:35:14,688 --> 00:35:19,793 And it is also a place of barely suppressed religious hatreds. 478 00:35:19,828 --> 00:35:22,022 There will come the day and that day is now. 479 00:35:22,057 --> 00:35:24,717 When you are on our lands, spreading these ideas, 480 00:35:24,752 --> 00:35:27,672 that the soldiers of Allah will not put up with this. 481 00:35:42,644 --> 00:35:45,609 We live at a time when religious belief is fighting back 482 00:35:45,644 --> 00:35:48,626 against reason and scientific truth. 483 00:35:48,661 --> 00:35:50,698 This is a problem for all of us, 484 00:35:50,733 --> 00:35:54,549 because religion's irrational roots nourish intolerance 485 00:35:54,584 --> 00:35:57,364 to the point of murder. 486 00:35:58,255 --> 00:35:59,908 I'm in Jerusalem's old city, 487 00:35:59,943 --> 00:36:05,601 trying to understand the role deeply-held faith plays in the bitter conflict here. 488 00:36:08,241 --> 00:36:11,517 One of the first things you notice is the edgy watchfulness, 489 00:36:11,552 --> 00:36:15,274 the different ethnic and religious communities live cheek-by-jowl, 490 00:36:15,309 --> 00:36:18,606 but there are security checkpoints throughout the old city, 491 00:36:18,641 --> 00:36:22,753 and one section above all is under heavy guard. 492 00:36:24,296 --> 00:36:27,724 For the Muslims, the compound enclosing the Dome of the Rock and 493 00:36:27,759 --> 00:36:34,272 Al-Aqsa mosque is, after Mecca and Medina, the third holiest site in lslam. 494 00:36:34,307 --> 00:36:35,860 It was from here, they believe, 495 00:36:35,895 --> 00:36:38,826 that the prophet Mohammad flew up to heaven. 496 00:36:42,596 --> 00:36:45,043 As bad luck would have it, the Jews believe the same place 497 00:36:45,078 --> 00:36:48,929 is the site of the long-destroyed first and second temples, 498 00:36:48,964 --> 00:36:51,513 the holiest shrine in Judaism. 499 00:37:08,147 --> 00:37:11,546 Jews are not allowed to worship inside the compound, 500 00:37:11,581 --> 00:37:15,928 their prayers are restricted to the ruined western, or wailing, wall. 501 00:37:15,963 --> 00:37:19,608 "When Jesus came here to overturn the tables, 502 00:37:19,643 --> 00:37:21,494 there was no mosque in view." 503 00:37:21,529 --> 00:37:23,835 "When the Arabs conquered this part of the world, 504 00:37:23,870 --> 00:37:27,082 they established the Al-Aqsa mosque." 505 00:37:27,117 --> 00:37:33,054 And then they put over where we think is the main temple compound, 506 00:37:33,089 --> 00:37:35,796 where the altar was, where the holy of holy was, 507 00:37:35,831 --> 00:37:38,318 they put another building called the Dome of the Rock, 508 00:37:38,353 --> 00:37:44,175 it was not properly a mosque, and we at the present moment are 509 00:37:44,210 --> 00:37:50,454 simply not allowed in there, inside the compound, identifiably as Jews. 510 00:37:52,223 --> 00:37:54,764 The Muslims reject these Jewish claims. 511 00:37:55,855 --> 00:38:00,359 And when Ariel Sharon entered the Temple Mount area in the Year 2000: 512 00:38:00,394 --> 00:38:04,149 "I came here with a message of peace." 513 00:38:04,184 --> 00:38:08,637 His visit sparked the second, or Al-Aqsa Intifada, 514 00:38:08,672 --> 00:38:13,810 a Palestinian uprising that has cost 4000 lives so far. 515 00:38:24,330 --> 00:38:30,386 And if the Jews sincerely want peace with the Arabs and Muslims, 516 00:38:30,421 --> 00:38:35,167 then they should stand away, keep away from the Al-Aqsa mosque. 517 00:38:35,202 --> 00:38:41,318 "In the Muslim religion, there is no possibility anyway of sharing the territory." 518 00:38:41,353 --> 00:38:45,778 If l come in there, in some far corner, far away from a mosque, 519 00:38:45,813 --> 00:38:49,981 in an open area, under a tree somewhere, if a Muslim will catch me 520 00:38:50,016 --> 00:38:52,221 murmuring psalms or some other prayer, 521 00:38:52,256 --> 00:38:56,810 he will call the police to have me 'egressed', shall I say. 522 00:38:56,845 --> 00:38:59,580 As far as the Al-Aqsa mosque is considered, 523 00:38:59,615 --> 00:39:03,830 there are no negotiations, absolutely no negotiations about it. 524 00:39:10,151 --> 00:39:18,104 Because no Muslim has the right, worldwide, to negotiate over the Al-Aqsa mosque. 525 00:39:26,305 --> 00:39:30,505 Again and again my conversations come back to the solid walls 526 00:39:30,540 --> 00:39:34,222 that religion puts up. Back to implacable faiths. 527 00:39:34,257 --> 00:39:38,378 "My holy book is true" , " I am right" ," He is wrong". 528 00:39:39,241 --> 00:39:42,470 So I went to meet someone who, in my naivety, 529 00:39:42,505 --> 00:39:46,441 I thought might be able to see both sides of the story. 530 00:39:46,476 --> 00:39:50,982 Yusuf Al-Khattab used to be called Joseph Coen, 531 00:39:51,017 --> 00:39:54,425 born and brought up as a secular Jew in New York. 532 00:39:54,460 --> 00:39:58,588 In 1998 he moved to Gaza as a Jewish settler, 533 00:39:58,623 --> 00:40:04,177 but there he discovered a different God, Allah. 534 00:40:11,225 --> 00:40:14,710 What I notice coming to this centre of world religions, 535 00:40:14,745 --> 00:40:18,165 is what a lot hatred religion fosters. 536 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:23,245 I mean, I'm an atheist, and I am rather gentle, I don't hate people. 537 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,859 But it seems to me that I'm hearing hate on all sides, 538 00:40:25,894 --> 00:40:27,873 and it seems to me is all to do with religion. 539 00:40:27,908 --> 00:40:30,040 I hate atheists because atheists don't care 540 00:40:30,075 --> 00:40:32,154 if somebody fornicates in the middle of the street, 541 00:40:32,189 --> 00:40:35,941 they don't care if their women go bouncing around on TV topless, 542 00:40:35,976 --> 00:40:37,741 it makes no difference, they don't believe in anything. 543 00:40:37,776 --> 00:40:39,505 If you don't believe in a set rule, 544 00:40:39,540 --> 00:40:41,853 and you believe that a constitution can change, 545 00:40:41,888 --> 00:40:44,035 and you can amend the rules as they go along, 546 00:40:44,070 --> 00:40:45,494 and if you don't believe in God's rule, 547 00:40:45,529 --> 00:40:48,830 then what law do you have? You just have man-made laws. 548 00:40:48,865 --> 00:40:50,877 I realized I was in the company of someone 549 00:40:50,912 --> 00:40:54,328 who has willingly bought into fundamentalist dogma. 550 00:40:54,363 --> 00:40:59,503 What do you think about the September 11 attacks on New York, 551 00:40:59,538 --> 00:41:03,049 and the July 7 attacks in London? 552 00:41:03,084 --> 00:41:06,301 Okay, since you like to speak about evolution, I'd like to start before 553 00:41:06,336 --> 00:41:08,234 What do you think about the Jews that have 554 00:41:08,269 --> 00:41:12,225 destroyed over 417 Arab villages, including all mosques and majids? 555 00:41:12,260 --> 00:41:14,207 Which wouldn't affect you, 'cause you're an atheist. 556 00:41:14,242 --> 00:41:17,306 So what are are you saying? That we should sit back.. 557 00:41:17,341 --> 00:41:18,495 Not at all. 558 00:41:18,530 --> 00:41:19,762 ..and say: Oh, you know what? Let us progress and 559 00:41:21,012 --> 00:41:21,957 let us sit down and drink tea, and talk about what to do. 560 00:41:21,992 --> 00:41:23,944 I think that's the most ridiculous thing. 561 00:41:23,979 --> 00:41:28,027 All I could say is if there was noquote-unquote "state of Israel", 562 00:41:28,062 --> 00:41:30,012 there would have been no September 11. 563 00:41:30,047 --> 00:41:31,944 But if we've all got to live together, 564 00:41:31,979 --> 00:41:36,441 it's not going to be helped if there are people of very, very strong faith 565 00:41:36,476 --> 00:41:38,387 who simply "know" they're right, 566 00:41:38,422 --> 00:41:40,789 and are not amenable to argument because.. 567 00:41:40,824 --> 00:41:44,512 There's somebody out there who's just as faithful as you, 568 00:41:44,547 --> 00:41:48,354 and has his faith just as strong as yours, which is opposite to yours. 569 00:41:48,389 --> 00:41:50,810 You see the problem is, Richard, I think that you have fear. 570 00:41:50,845 --> 00:41:54,932 You know that this party of occupying Muslim lands, 571 00:41:54,967 --> 00:41:58,487 and polluting society with these evil ideas that are around, 572 00:41:58,522 --> 00:42:01,766 it's not gonna last forever. There will always be the soldiers of Allah 573 00:42:01,801 --> 00:42:05,310 there to give the response to this. 574 00:42:05,345 --> 00:42:06,982 So we also want the same thing. 575 00:42:07,017 --> 00:42:11,463 All we want is.. we want the non-Muslims at this point 576 00:42:11,498 --> 00:42:13,027 off the lands of Mohammad, 577 00:42:13,062 --> 00:42:14,412 sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam. 578 00:42:14,447 --> 00:42:17,196 All the lands of Mohammad, We want the kaffir out of it. 579 00:42:17,231 --> 00:42:19,381 Do you want Islam to take over rest of the world? 580 00:42:19,416 --> 00:42:21,319 Of course I want it to, and it will. 581 00:42:21,354 --> 00:42:24,132 So my advice is to clean up your show at home, 582 00:42:24,167 --> 00:42:27,894 take your forces off our lands, correct yourselves, 583 00:42:27,929 --> 00:42:31,250 fix your society, alright? Fix your women.. 584 00:42:31,285 --> 00:42:33,194 Fix your women? That's not my business, 585 00:42:33,229 --> 00:42:35,412 that my women's business. They're not my women.. 586 00:42:35,447 --> 00:42:37,159 No, it is your business. It is your business. 587 00:42:37,194 --> 00:42:39,845 When you take the women and dress them like whores on the street.. 588 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:41,888 I don't dress women, they dress themselves! 589 00:42:41,923 --> 00:42:45,911 But you allow it as a norm, to let the women go on the street dressed like this. 590 00:42:45,946 --> 00:42:48,198 What's goin' on with your society? 591 00:42:48,233 --> 00:42:51,807 But I'm interested in religion and the effect that it has on peoples' minds, 592 00:42:51,842 --> 00:42:53,064 and I'm worried about it. 593 00:42:53,099 --> 00:42:54,968 And we're very worried about you. 594 00:42:55,003 --> 00:42:56,375 I mean, what's goin' on with the stealing? 595 00:42:56,410 --> 00:42:58,452 With the theft? It's out of control.. 596 00:43:01,316 --> 00:43:04,201 Clearly, historic injustice towards the Palestinians 597 00:43:04,236 --> 00:43:06,615 breeds hatred and anger. 598 00:43:08,153 --> 00:43:11,686 But we must face up to the fact that in creating the death cults of 599 00:43:11,721 --> 00:43:13,935 suicide bombers, it's unshakable, 600 00:43:13,970 --> 00:43:19,312 unreasonable conviction in your own righteous faith that is the key. 601 00:43:19,347 --> 00:43:22,128 If preachers then tell the faithful 602 00:43:22,163 --> 00:43:25,041 that Paradise after martyrdom is better 603 00:43:25,076 --> 00:43:28,587 than existence here in the real world, it's hardly surprising that some 604 00:43:28,622 --> 00:43:31,457 crazed followers will actually swallow it, 605 00:43:31,492 --> 00:43:37,374 leading to a terrible cycle of vendetta, war and suffering. 606 00:43:50,744 --> 00:43:52,373 I'm here on the Mount of Olives, 607 00:43:52,408 --> 00:43:56,762 looking out over this beautiful old city. 608 00:43:56,797 --> 00:43:59,750 We've heard some pretty extreme statements, 609 00:43:59,785 --> 00:44:02,314 some hatred, some bigotry, 610 00:44:02,349 --> 00:44:04,911 such as I haven't really heard before. 611 00:44:05,934 --> 00:44:09,296 I don't see what future the world has, 612 00:44:09,331 --> 00:44:11,578 as long as people think like that, 613 00:44:11,613 --> 00:44:14,780 and people are going to go on thinking like that, as long as they're 614 00:44:14,815 --> 00:44:19,322 brought up from childhood, from the cradle, 615 00:44:19,357 --> 00:44:23,050 to think that there's something good about faith. 616 00:44:23,085 --> 00:44:24,874 To think that there's something good 617 00:44:24,909 --> 00:44:28,862 about believing because you've been told to believe, 618 00:44:28,897 --> 00:44:32,975 rather than believing because you've looked at the evidence. 619 00:44:36,559 --> 00:44:41,715 I want to say that killing for God is not only hideous murder, 620 00:44:41,750 --> 00:44:44,288 it is also utterly ridiculous. 621 00:44:47,405 --> 00:44:51,581 Unlike religion, science doesn't pretend to know everything. 622 00:44:51,616 --> 00:44:55,099 There are still deep questions about the origins of the universe 623 00:44:55,134 --> 00:44:57,912 that have yet to be explained. 624 00:44:59,374 --> 00:45:02,235 But just because science can't answer them right now, 625 00:45:02,270 --> 00:45:09,501 doesn't mean faith, tradition, revelation or an ancient holy text, can. 626 00:45:10,643 --> 00:45:13,653 Science can't disprove the existence of God, 627 00:45:13,688 --> 00:45:15,946 but that does not mean that God exists. 628 00:45:15,981 --> 00:45:19,978 There are a million things we can't disprove! 629 00:45:22,276 --> 00:45:25,668 The philosopher Bertrand Russell had an analogy: 630 00:45:25,703 --> 00:45:30,479 Imagine there's a china tea pot, in orbit around the Sun. 631 00:45:30,514 --> 00:45:34,762 You cannot disprove the existence of the tea pot, because it's too small 632 00:45:34,797 --> 00:45:37,383 to be spotted by our telescopes. 633 00:45:38,145 --> 00:45:40,149 Nobody but a lunatic would say 'well, 634 00:45:40,184 --> 00:45:44,210 I'm prepared to believe in the tea pot because I can't disprove it'. 635 00:45:44,245 --> 00:45:47,635 Maybe we have to be technically and strictly agnostic, 636 00:45:47,670 --> 00:45:52,012 but in practice we are all tea pot atheists. 637 00:45:53,843 --> 00:45:57,203 But now, suppose that everybody in the society, the teachers, 638 00:45:57,238 --> 00:46:01,803 the tribal elders, all had faith in the tea pot. 639 00:46:01,838 --> 00:46:05,114 Stories of the tea pot had been handed down for generations, 640 00:46:05,149 --> 00:46:07,148 it's part of the tradition of the society, 641 00:46:07,183 --> 00:46:09,532 there are holy books about the tea pot. 642 00:46:09,567 --> 00:46:13,831 Then, somebody who said they did not believe in the tea pot, might be 643 00:46:13,866 --> 00:46:18,311 regarded as eccentric or even mad. 644 00:46:19,784 --> 00:46:25,217 There's an infinite number of things like celestial tea pots that we can't disprove. 645 00:46:25,252 --> 00:46:30,319 There are fairies, there are unicorns, hobgoblins. 646 00:46:30,354 --> 00:46:32,464 We can't disprove any of those. 647 00:46:32,499 --> 00:46:35,020 But we don't believe in them anymore than nowadays we believe 648 00:46:35,055 --> 00:46:42,368 in Thor, Amen-Rah, or Aphrodite. 649 00:46:42,403 --> 00:46:48,730 We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. 650 00:46:48,765 --> 00:46:52,626 Some of us just go one god further. 651 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:08,820 In the next program, how faith acts like a virus that strikes the young, 652 00:47:08,855 --> 00:47:12,670 and how the good book, which people follow for moral instruction, 653 00:47:12,705 --> 00:47:14,218 actually reveals a god 654 00:47:14,253 --> 00:47:19,241 who is surely the most vindictive character in all fiction.