1 00:00:15,849 --> 00:00:17,935 [eerie instrumental music playing] 2 00:00:31,114 --> 00:00:34,660 [interviewer] Why don't you go ahead? Sit down and see if you can get comfy. 3 00:00:37,579 --> 00:00:39,790 -You good? All right. -Yeah. [exhales] 4 00:00:39,915 --> 00:00:42,125 -[interviewer] Um... -[cell phone vibrates] 5 00:00:43,430 --> 00:00:44,795 [crew member] Take one, marker. 6 00:00:46,797 --> 00:00:48,799 [interviewer] Wanna start by introducing yourself? 7 00:00:48,882 --> 00:00:49,800 [crew member coughs] 8 00:00:50,467 --> 00:00:53,345 Hello, world. Bailey. Take three. 9 00:00:53,971 --> 00:00:56,348 -[interviewer] You good? -This is the worst part, man. 10 00:00:56,890 --> 00:00:59,518 [chuckling] I don't like this. 11 00:00:59,851 --> 00:01:02,229 I worked at Facebook in 2011 and 2012. 12 00:01:02,312 --> 00:01:05,190 I was one of the really early employees at Instagram. 13 00:01:05,274 --> 00:01:08,694 [man 1] I worked at, uh, Google, uh, YouTube. 14 00:01:08,777 --> 00:01:11,697 [woman] Apple, Google, Twitter, Palm. 15 00:01:12,739 --> 00:01:15,534 I helped start Mozilla Labs and switched over to the Firefox side. 16 00:01:15,617 --> 00:01:18,120 -[interviewer] Are we rolling? Everybody? -[crew members reply] 17 00:01:18,203 --> 00:01:19,162 [interviewer] Great. 18 00:01:21,206 --> 00:01:22,624 [man 2] I worked at Twitter. 19 00:01:23,410 --> 00:01:23,917 My last job there 20 00:01:24,100 --> 00:01:26,169 was the senior vice president of engineering. 21 00:01:27,337 --> 00:01:29,256 -[man 3] I was the president of Pinterest. -[sips] 22 00:01:29,339 --> 00:01:32,718 Before that, um, I was the... the director of monetization 23 00:01:32,801 --> 00:01:34,261 at Facebook for five years. 24 00:01:34,344 --> 00:01:37,973 While at Twitter, I spent a number of years running their developer platform, 25 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:40,225 and then I became head of consumer product. 26 00:01:40,309 --> 00:01:44,271 I was the coinventor of Google Drive, Gmail Chat, 27 00:01:44,354 --> 00:01:46,690 Facebook Pages, and the Facebook like button. 28 00:01:47,441 --> 00:01:50,777 Yeah. This is... This is why I spent, like, eight months 29 00:01:50,861 --> 00:01:52,779 talking back and forth with lawyers. 30 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:55,407 This freaks me out. 31 00:01:58,410 --> 00:01:59,703 [man 2] When I was there, 32 00:01:59,786 --> 00:02:02,914 I always felt like, fundamentally, it was a force for good. 33 00:02:03,415 --> 00:02:05,375 I don't know if I feel that way anymore. 34 00:02:05,459 --> 00:02:10,589 I left Google in June 2017, uh, due to ethical concerns. 35 00:02:10,672 --> 00:02:14,134 And... And not just at Google but within the industry at large. 36 00:02:14,217 --> 00:02:15,385 I'm very concerned. 37 00:02:16,636 --> 00:02:17,679 I'm very concerned. 38 00:02:19,970 --> 00:02:21,808 It's easy today to lose sight of the fact 39 00:02:21,892 --> 00:02:27,814 that these tools actually have created some wonderful things in the world. 40 00:02:27,898 --> 00:02:31,943 They've reunited lost family members. They've found organ donors. 41 00:02:32,270 --> 00:02:36,573 I mean, there were meaningful, systemic changes happening 42 00:02:36,656 --> 00:02:39,159 around the world because of these platforms 43 00:02:39,242 --> 00:02:40,285 that were positive! 44 00:02:40,827 --> 00:02:44,539 I think we were naive about the flip side of that coin. 45 00:02:45,540 --> 00:02:48,585 Yeah, these things, you release them, and they take on a life of their own. 46 00:02:48,668 --> 00:02:52,500 And how they're used is pretty different than how you expected. 47 00:02:52,890 --> 00:02:56,510 Nobody, I deeply believe, ever intended any of these consequences. 48 00:02:56,593 --> 00:02:59,554 There's no one bad guy. No. Absolutely not. 49 00:03:01,598 --> 00:03:03,975 [interviewer] So, then, what's the... what's the problem? 50 00:03:09,147 --> 00:03:11,483 [interviewer] Is there a problem, and what is the problem? 51 00:03:12,109 --> 00:03:13,260 [swallows] 52 00:03:17,614 --> 00:03:19,991 [clicks tongue] Yeah, it is hard to give a single, succinct... 53 00:03:20,750 --> 00:03:22,119 I'm trying to touch on many different problems. 54 00:03:22,536 --> 00:03:23,954 [interviewer] What is the problem? 55 00:03:24,621 --> 00:03:25,914 [clicks tongue, chuckles] 56 00:03:27,916 --> 00:03:29,501 [birds singing] 57 00:03:31,169 --> 00:03:32,671 [dog barking in distance] 58 00:03:33,463 --> 00:03:35,340 [reporter 1] Despite facing mounting criticism, 59 00:03:35,424 --> 00:03:37,676 the so-called Big Tech names are getting bigger. 60 00:03:37,759 --> 00:03:40,929 The entire tech industry is under a new level of scrutiny. 61 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,807 And a new study sheds light on the link 62 00:03:43,890 --> 00:03:46,143 between mental health and social media use. 63 00:03:46,226 --> 00:03:48,687 [on TV] Here to talk about the latest research... 64 00:03:48,770 --> 00:03:51,398 [Tucker Carlson] ...is going on that gets no coverage at all. 65 00:03:51,481 --> 00:03:54,109 Tens of millions of Americans are hopelessly addicted 66 00:03:54,192 --> 00:03:56,319 to their electronic devices. 67 00:03:56,403 --> 00:03:57,988 [reporter 2] It's exacerbated by the fact 68 00:03:58,710 --> 00:04:00,699 that you can literally isolate yourself now 69 00:04:00,782 --> 00:04:02,742 in a bubble, thanks to our technology. 70 00:04:02,826 --> 00:04:04,578 Fake news is becoming more advanced 71 00:04:04,661 --> 00:04:06,788 and threatening societies around the world. 72 00:04:06,872 --> 00:04:10,250 We weren't expecting any of this when we created Twitter over 12 years ago. 73 00:04:10,333 --> 00:04:12,502 White House officials say they have no reason to believe 74 00:04:12,586 --> 00:04:14,754 the Russian cyberattacks will stop. 75 00:04:14,838 --> 00:04:18,133 YouTube is being forced  to concentrate on cleansing the site. 76 00:04:18,216 --> 00:04:21,553 [reporter 3] TikTok, if you talk to any tween out there... 77 00:04:21,636 --> 00:04:24,140 [on TV] ...there's no chance they'll delete this thing... 78 00:04:24,970 --> 00:04:26,224 Hey, Isla, can you get the table ready, please? 79 00:04:26,308 --> 00:04:28,602 [reporter 4] There's a question about whether social media 80 00:04:28,685 --> 00:04:29,978 is making your child depressed. 81 00:04:30,610 --> 00:04:32,105 [mom] Isla, can you set the table, please? 82 00:04:32,189 --> 00:04:35,317 [reporter 5] These cosmetic procedures are becoming so popular with teens, 83 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,903 plastic surgeons have coined a new syndrome for it, 84 00:04:37,986 --> 00:04:40,822 "Snapchat dysmorphia," with young patients wanting surgery 85 00:04:40,906 --> 00:04:43,742 so they can look more like they do in filtered selfies. 86 00:04:43,825 --> 00:04:45,911 Still don't see why you let her have that thing. 87 00:04:45,994 --> 00:04:47,412 What was I supposed to do? 88 00:04:47,496 --> 00:04:49,581 I mean, every other kid in her class had one. 89 00:04:50,165 --> 00:04:51,166 She's only 11. 90 00:04:51,249 --> 00:04:52,959 Cass, no one's forcing you to get one. 91 00:04:53,430 --> 00:04:55,860 You can stay disconnected as long as you want. 92 00:04:55,170 --> 00:04:59,341 Hey, I'm connected without a cell phone, okay? I'm on the Internet right now. 93 00:04:59,424 --> 00:05:03,940 Also, that isn't even actual connection. It's just a load of sh-- 94 00:05:03,178 --> 00:05:05,130 Surveillance capitalism has come to shape 95 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:07,766 our politics and culture in ways many people don't perceive. 96 00:05:07,849 --> 00:05:10,101 [reporter 6] ISIS inspired followers online, 97 00:05:10,185 --> 00:05:12,813 and now white supremacists are doing the same. 98 00:05:12,896 --> 00:05:14,147 Recently in India, 99 00:05:14,231 --> 00:05:17,442 Internet lynch mobs have killed a dozen people, including these five... 100 00:05:17,526 --> 00:05:20,362 [reporter 7] It's not just fake news; it's fake news with consequences. 101 00:05:20,445 --> 00:05:24,740 [reporter 8] How do you handle an epidemic in the age of fake news? 102 00:05:24,157 --> 00:05:26,993 Can you get the coronavirus by eating Chinese food? 103 00:05:27,536 --> 00:05:32,541 We have gone from the information age into the disinformation age. 104 00:05:32,624 --> 00:05:34,668 Our democracy is under assault. 105 00:05:34,751 --> 00:05:36,920 [man 4] What I said was, "I think the tools 106 00:05:37,300 --> 00:05:39,500 that have been created today are starting 107 00:05:39,890 --> 00:05:41,800 to erode the social fabric of how society works." 108 00:05:41,883 --> 00:05:44,427 [eerie instrumental music continues] 109 00:05:55,981 --> 00:05:58,483 -[music fades] -[indistinct chatter] 110 00:05:58,567 --> 00:05:59,442 [crew member] Fine. 111 00:06:00,151 --> 00:06:03,446 [stage manager] Aza does welcoming remarks. We play the video. 112 00:06:04,197 --> 00:06:07,325 And then, "Ladies and gentlemen, Tristan Harris." 113 00:06:07,409 --> 00:06:08,868 -Right. -[stage manager] Great. 114 00:06:08,952 --> 00:06:12,380 So, I come up, and... 115 00:06:13,832 --> 00:06:17,127 basically say, "Thank you all for coming." Um... 116 00:06:17,919 --> 00:06:22,480 So, today, I wanna talk about a new agenda for technology. 117 00:06:22,132 --> 00:06:25,468 And why we wanna do that is because if you ask people, 118 00:06:25,552 --> 00:06:27,804 "What's wrong in the tech industry right now?" 119 00:06:28,263 --> 00:06:31,641 there's a cacophony of grievances and scandals, 120 00:06:31,725 --> 00:06:33,893 and "They stole our data." And there's tech addiction. 121 00:06:33,977 --> 00:06:35,979 And there's fake news. And there's polarization 122 00:06:36,620 --> 00:06:37,856 and some elections that are getting hacked. 123 00:06:38,189 --> 00:06:41,610 But is there something that is beneath all these problems 124 00:06:41,693 --> 00:06:44,613 that's causing all these things to happen at once? 125 00:06:44,821 --> 00:06:46,364 [stage manager speaking indistinctly] 126 00:06:46,448 --> 00:06:48,408 -Does this feel good? -Very good. Yeah. 127 00:06:49,340 --> 00:06:49,993 Um... [sighs] 128 00:06:50,744 --> 00:06:52,954 I'm just trying to... Like, I want people to see... 129 00:06:53,380 --> 00:06:55,123 Like, there's a problem happening in the tech industry, 130 00:06:55,206 --> 00:06:56,708 and it doesn't have a name, 131 00:06:56,791 --> 00:07:00,211 and it has to do with one source, like, one... 132 00:07:00,795 --> 00:07:03,590 [eerie instrumental music playing] 133 00:07:05,910 --> 00:07:09,387 [Tristan] When you look around you, it feels like the world is going crazy. 134 00:07:12,766 --> 00:07:15,310 You have to ask yourself, like, "Is this normal? 135 00:07:16,102 --> 00:07:18,772 Or have we all fallen under some kind of spell?" 136 00:07:27,989 --> 00:07:30,492 I wish more people could understand how this works 137 00:07:30,575 --> 00:07:34,370 because it shouldn't be something that only the tech industry knows. 138 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,247 It should be something that everybody knows. 139 00:07:36,331 --> 00:07:38,708 [backpack zips] 140 00:07:41,419 --> 00:07:42,379 [softly] Bye. 141 00:07:43,630 --> 00:07:44,881 [guard] Here you go, sir. 142 00:07:47,384 --> 00:07:48,677 -[employee] Hello! -[Tristan] Hi. 143 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,679 -Tristan. Nice to meet you. -It's Tris-tan, right? 144 00:07:50,762 --> 00:07:51,721 -Yes. -Awesome. Cool. 145 00:07:53,181 --> 00:07:55,934 [presenter] Tristan Harris is a former design ethicist for Google 146 00:07:56,170 --> 00:07:59,396 and has been called the closest thing Silicon Valley has to a conscience. 147 00:07:59,479 --> 00:08:00,730 [reporter] He's asking tech 148 00:08:00,814 --> 00:08:04,192 to bring what he calls "ethical design" to its products. 149 00:08:04,275 --> 00:08:06,903 [Anderson Cooper] It's rare for a tech insider to be so blunt, 150 00:08:06,986 --> 00:08:10,115 but Tristan Harris believes someone needs to be. 151 00:08:11,324 --> 00:08:12,701 [Tristan] When I was at Google, 152 00:08:12,784 --> 00:08:16,370 I was on the Gmail team, and I just started getting burnt out 153 00:08:16,121 --> 00:08:18,373 'cause we'd had so many conversations about... 154 00:08:19,457 --> 00:08:23,169 you know, what the inbox should look like and what color it should be, and... 155 00:08:23,253 --> 00:08:25,880 And I, you know, felt personally addicted to e-mail, 156 00:08:26,297 --> 00:08:27,632 and I found it fascinating 157 00:08:27,716 --> 00:08:31,511 there was no one at Gmail working on making it less addictive. 158 00:08:31,970 --> 00:08:34,514 And I was like, "Is anybody else thinking about this? 159 00:08:34,597 --> 00:08:36,391 I haven't heard anybody talk about this." 160 00:08:36,850 --> 00:08:39,686 -And I was feeling this frustration... -[sighs] 161 00:08:39,769 --> 00:08:41,229 ...with the tech industry, overall, 162 00:08:41,312 --> 00:08:43,148 that we'd kind of, like, lost our way. 163 00:08:43,231 --> 00:08:46,443 -[ominous instrumental music playing] -[message alerts chiming] 164 00:08:46,818 --> 00:08:49,821 [Tristan] You know, I really struggled to try and figure out 165 00:08:49,904 --> 00:08:52,574 how, from the inside, we could change it. 166 00:08:52,907 --> 00:08:55,118 [energetic piano music playing] 167 00:08:55,201 --> 00:08:58,121 [Tristan] And that was when I decided to make a presentation, 168 00:08:58,204 --> 00:08:59,497 kind of a call to arms. 169 00:09:00,999 --> 00:09:04,961 Every day, I went home and I worked on it for a couple hours every single night. 170 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:06,870 [typing] 171 00:09:06,171 --> 00:09:08,548 [Tristan] It basically just said, you know, 172 00:09:08,631 --> 00:09:11,885 never before in history have 50 designers-- 173 00:09:12,427 --> 00:09:15,263 20- to 35-year-old white guys in California-- 174 00:09:15,889 --> 00:09:19,726 made decisions that would have an impact on two billion people. 175 00:09:21,190 --> 00:09:24,439 Two billion people will have thoughts that they didn't intend to have 176 00:09:24,522 --> 00:09:28,401 because a designer at Google said, "This is how notifications work 177 00:09:28,485 --> 00:09:30,779 on that screen that you wake up to in the morning." 178 00:09:31,196 --> 00:09:35,283 And we have a moral responsibility, as Google, for solving this problem. 179 00:09:36,750 --> 00:09:37,744 And I sent this presentation 180 00:09:37,827 --> 00:09:41,790 to about 15, 20 of my closest colleagues at Google, 181 00:09:41,873 --> 00:09:44,959 and I was very nervous about it. I wasn't sure how it was gonna land. 182 00:09:46,461 --> 00:09:48,460 When I went to work the next day, 183 00:09:48,129 --> 00:09:50,465 most of the laptops had the presentation open. 184 00:09:52,133 --> 00:09:54,552 Later that day, there was, like, 400 simultaneous viewers, 185 00:09:54,636 --> 00:09:56,540 so it just kept growing and growing. 186 00:09:56,137 --> 00:10:00,266 I got e-mails from all around the company. I mean, people in every department saying, 187 00:10:00,350 --> 00:10:02,852 "I totally agree." "I see this affecting my kids." 188 00:10:02,936 --> 00:10:04,979 "I see this affecting the people around me." 189 00:10:05,630 --> 00:10:06,940 "We have to do something about this." 190 00:10:07,482 --> 00:10:10,819 It felt like I was sort of launching a revolution or something like that. 191 00:10:11,861 --> 00:10:15,198 Later, I found out Larry Page had been notified about this presentation 192 00:10:15,281 --> 00:10:17,909 -in three separate meetings that day. -[indistinct chatter] 193 00:10:17,992 --> 00:10:20,286 [Tristan] And so, it created this kind of cultural moment 194 00:10:20,870 --> 00:10:24,415 -that Google needed to take seriously. -[whooshing] 195 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,878 -[Tristan] And then... nothing. -[whooshing fades] 196 00:10:32,674 --> 00:10:34,217 [message alerts chiming] 197 00:10:34,300 --> 00:10:36,135 [Tim] Everyone in 2006... 198 00:10:37,220 --> 00:10:39,222 including all of us at Facebook, 199 00:10:39,305 --> 00:10:43,393 just had total admiration for Google and what Google had built, 200 00:10:43,476 --> 00:10:47,397 which was this incredibly useful service 201 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,442 that did, far as we could tell, lots of goodness for the world, 202 00:10:51,526 --> 00:10:54,696 and they built this parallel money machine. 203 00:10:55,405 --> 00:11:00,340 We had such envy for that, and it seemed so elegant to us... 204 00:11:00,827 --> 00:11:02,161 and so perfect. 205 00:11:02,954 --> 00:11:05,290 Facebook had been around for about two years, 206 00:11:05,373 --> 00:11:08,376 um, and I was hired to come in and figure out 207 00:11:08,459 --> 00:11:10,587 what the business model was gonna be for the company. 208 00:11:10,670 --> 00:11:13,423 I was the director of monetization. The point was, like, 209 00:11:13,506 --> 00:11:17,510 "You're the person who's gonna figure out how this thing monetizes." 210 00:11:17,135 --> 00:11:19,804 And there were a lot of people who did a lot of the work, 211 00:11:19,888 --> 00:11:25,476 but I was clearly one of the people who was pointing towards... 212 00:11:26,769 --> 00:11:28,563 "Well, we have to make money, A... 213 00:11:29,314 --> 00:11:33,651 and I think this advertising model is probably the most elegant way. 214 00:11:36,279 --> 00:11:38,281 [bright instrumental music playing] 215 00:11:42,243 --> 00:11:44,370 Uh-oh. What's this video Mom just sent us? 216 00:11:44,454 --> 00:11:46,748 Oh, that's from a talk show, but that's pretty good. 217 00:11:46,831 --> 00:11:47,874 Guy's kind of a genius. 218 00:11:47,957 --> 00:11:50,585 He's talking all about deleting social media, which you gotta do. 219 00:11:50,668 --> 00:11:52,879 I might have to start blocking her e-mails. 220 00:11:52,962 --> 00:11:54,881 I don't even know what she's talking about, man. 221 00:11:54,964 --> 00:11:56,900 She's worse than I am. 222 00:11:56,174 --> 00:11:58,509 -No, she only uses it for recipes. -Right, and work. 223 00:11:58,593 --> 00:12:00,553 -And workout videos. -[guy] And to check up on us. 224 00:12:00,637 --> 00:12:03,560 And everyone else she's ever met in her entire life. 225 00:12:04,933 --> 00:12:07,894 If you are scrolling through your social media feed 226 00:12:07,977 --> 00:12:11,731 while you're watchin' us, you need to put the damn phone down and listen up 227 00:12:11,814 --> 00:12:14,817 'cause our next guest has written an incredible book 228 00:12:14,901 --> 00:12:18,112 about how much it's wrecking our lives. 229 00:12:18,196 --> 00:12:19,447 Please welcome author 230 00:12:19,530 --> 00:12:23,952 of Ten Arguments for Deleting  Your Social Media Accounts Right Now... 231 00:12:24,350 --> 00:12:26,287 -[Sunny Hostin] Uh-huh. -...Jaron Lanier. 232 00:12:26,371 --> 00:12:27,914 [cohosts speaking indistinctly] 233 00:12:27,997 --> 00:12:31,834 [Jaron] Companies like Google and Facebook are some of the wealthiest 234 00:12:31,918 --> 00:12:33,544 and most successful of all time. 235 00:12:33,711 --> 00:12:36,839 Uh, they have relatively few employees. 236 00:12:36,923 --> 00:12:41,427 They just have this giant computer that rakes in money, right? Uh... 237 00:12:41,511 --> 00:12:42,971 Now, what are they being paid for? 238 00:12:43,540 --> 00:12:45,223 [chuckles] That's a really important question. 239 00:12:47,308 --> 00:12:50,311 [Roger] So, I've been an investor in technology for 35 years. 240 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,357 The first 50 years of Silicon Valley, the industry made products-- 241 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:55,566 hardware, software-- 242 00:12:55,650 --> 00:12:58,403 sold 'em to customers. Nice, simple business. 243 00:12:58,486 --> 00:13:01,447 For the last ten years, the biggest companies in Silicon Valley 244 00:13:01,531 --> 00:13:03,866 have been in the business of selling their users. 245 00:13:03,950 --> 00:13:05,910 It's a little even trite to say now, 246 00:13:05,994 --> 00:13:09,205 but... because we don't pay for the products that we use, 247 00:13:09,288 --> 00:13:12,166 advertisers pay for the products that we use. 248 00:13:12,250 --> 00:13:14,210 Advertisers are the customers. 249 00:13:14,711 --> 00:13:16,870 We're the thing being sold. 250 00:13:16,170 --> 00:13:17,630 The classic saying is: 251 00:13:17,714 --> 00:13:21,592 "If you're not paying for the product, then you are the product." 252 00:13:23,386 --> 00:13:27,223 A lot of people think, you know, "Oh, well, Google's just a search box, 253 00:13:27,306 --> 00:13:29,851 and Facebook's just a place to see what my friends are doing 254 00:13:29,934 --> 00:13:31,102 and see their photos." 255 00:13:31,185 --> 00:13:35,481 But what they don't realize is they're competing for your attention. 256 00:13:36,524 --> 00:13:41,112 So, you know, Facebook, Snapchat, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, 257 00:13:41,195 --> 00:13:45,700 companies like this, their business model is to keep people engaged on the screen. 258 00:13:46,284 --> 00:13:49,579 Let's figure out how to get as much of this person's attention 259 00:13:49,662 --> 00:13:50,955 as we possibly can. 260 00:13:51,456 --> 00:13:53,374 How much time can we get you to spend? 261 00:13:53,875 --> 00:13:56,669 How much of your life can we get you to give to us? 262 00:13:58,629 --> 00:14:01,900 [Justin] When you think about how some of these companies work, 263 00:14:01,174 --> 00:14:02,425 it starts to make sense. 264 00:14:03,510 --> 00:14:06,950 There are all these services on the Internet that we think of as free, 265 00:14:06,179 --> 00:14:09,474 but they're not free. They're paid for by advertisers. 266 00:14:09,557 --> 00:14:11,559 Why do advertisers pay those companies? 267 00:14:11,642 --> 00:14:14,687 They pay in exchange for showing their ads to us. 268 00:14:14,771 --> 00:14:18,357 We're the product. Our attention is the product being sold to advertisers. 269 00:14:18,816 --> 00:14:20,443 That's a little too simplistic. 270 00:14:20,860 --> 00:14:23,654 It's the gradual, slight, imperceptible change 271 00:14:23,738 --> 00:14:26,574 in your own behavior and perception that is the product. 272 00:14:27,658 --> 00:14:30,244 And that is the product. It's the only possible product. 273 00:14:30,328 --> 00:14:34,820 There's nothing else on the table that could possibly be called the product. 274 00:14:34,165 --> 00:14:37,100 That's the only thing there is for them to make money from. 275 00:14:37,668 --> 00:14:39,253 Changing what you do, 276 00:14:39,337 --> 00:14:41,714 how you think, who you are. 277 00:14:42,632 --> 00:14:45,301 It's a gradual change. It's slight. 278 00:14:45,385 --> 00:14:48,971 If you can go to somebody and you say, "Give me $10 million, 279 00:14:49,550 --> 00:14:54,310 and I will change the world one percent in the direction you want it to change..." 280 00:14:54,852 --> 00:14:58,189 It's the world! That can be incredible, and that's worth a lot of money. 281 00:14:59,315 --> 00:15:00,149 Okay. 282 00:15:00,691 --> 00:15:04,570 [Shoshana] This is what every business has always dreamt of: 283 00:15:04,654 --> 00:15:10,910 to have a guarantee that if it places an ad, it will be successful. 284 00:15:11,327 --> 00:15:12,787 That's their business. 285 00:15:12,870 --> 00:15:14,413 They sell certainty. 286 00:15:14,997 --> 00:15:17,625 In order to be successful in that business, 287 00:15:17,708 --> 00:15:19,794 you have to have great predictions. 288 00:15:20,860 --> 00:15:24,173 Great predictions begin with one imperative: 289 00:15:25,216 --> 00:15:26,926 you need a lot of data. 290 00:15:29,137 --> 00:15:31,305 Many people call this surveillance capitalism, 291 00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:34,350 capitalism profiting off of the infinite tracking 292 00:15:34,433 --> 00:15:38,620 of everywhere everyone goes by large technology companies 293 00:15:38,146 --> 00:15:40,356 whose business model is to make sure 294 00:15:40,439 --> 00:15:42,859 that advertisers are as successful as possible. 295 00:15:42,942 --> 00:15:45,570 This is a new kind of marketplace now. 296 00:15:45,653 --> 00:15:48,720 It's a marketplace that never existed before. 297 00:15:48,823 --> 00:15:55,371 And it's a marketplace that trades exclusively in human futures. 298 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:01,586 Just like there are markets that trade in pork belly futures or oil futures. 299 00:16:02,128 --> 00:16:07,592 We now have markets that trade in human futures at scale, 300 00:16:08,176 --> 00:16:13,472 and those markets have produced the trillions of dollars 301 00:16:14,150 --> 00:16:19,270 that have made the Internet companies the richest companies 302 00:16:19,353 --> 00:16:22,356 in the history of humanity. 303 00:16:23,357 --> 00:16:25,359 [indistinct chatter] 304 00:16:27,361 --> 00:16:30,990 [Jeff] What I want people to know is that everything they're doing online 305 00:16:31,730 --> 00:16:34,327 is being watched, is being tracked, is being measured. 306 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,624 Every single action you take is carefully monitored and recorded. 307 00:16:39,707 --> 00:16:43,836 Exactly what image you stop and look at, for how long you look at it. 308 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:45,796 Oh, yeah, seriously, for how long you look at it. 309 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:47,882 [monitors beeping] 310 00:16:50,510 --> 00:16:52,220 [Tristan] They know when people are lonely. 311 00:16:52,303 --> 00:16:53,804 They know when people are depressed. 312 00:16:53,888 --> 00:16:57,990 They know when people are looking at photos of your ex-romantic partners. 313 00:16:57,183 --> 00:17:00,853 They know what you're doing late at night. They know the entire thing. 314 00:17:01,270 --> 00:17:03,231 Whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, 315 00:17:03,314 --> 00:17:06,817 or what kind of neuroses you have,  what your personality type is like. 316 00:17:08,194 --> 00:17:11,614 [Shoshana] They have more information about us 317 00:17:11,697 --> 00:17:14,325 than has ever been imagined in human history. 318 00:17:14,951 --> 00:17:16,369 It is unprecedented. 319 00:17:18,579 --> 00:17:22,792 And so, all of this data that we're... that we're just pouring out all the time 320 00:17:22,875 --> 00:17:26,754 is being fed into these systems that have almost no human supervision 321 00:17:27,463 --> 00:17:30,883 and that are making better and better and better and better predictions 322 00:17:30,967 --> 00:17:33,553 about what we're gonna do and... and who we are. 323 00:17:33,636 --> 00:17:35,638 [indistinct chatter] 324 00:17:36,305 --> 00:17:39,350 [Aza] People have the misconception it's our data being sold. 325 00:17:40,351 --> 00:17:43,187 It's not in Facebook's business interest to give up the data. 326 00:17:45,523 --> 00:17:47,108 What do they do with that data? 327 00:17:49,402 --> 00:17:50,987 [console whirring] 328 00:17:51,700 --> 00:17:54,490 [Aza] They build models that predict our actions, 329 00:17:54,573 --> 00:17:57,618 and whoever has the best model wins. 330 00:18:02,707 --> 00:18:04,410 His scrolling speed is slowing. 331 00:18:04,125 --> 00:18:06,850 Nearing the end of his average session length. 332 00:18:06,168 --> 00:18:07,300 Decreasing ad load. 333 00:18:07,860 --> 00:18:08,337 Pull back on friends and family. 334 00:18:09,588 --> 00:18:11,340 [Tristan] On the other side of the screen, 335 00:18:11,424 --> 00:18:15,469 it's almost as if they had this avatar voodoo doll-like model of us. 336 00:18:16,846 --> 00:18:18,180 All of the things we've ever done, 337 00:18:18,264 --> 00:18:19,473 all the clicks we've ever made, 338 00:18:19,557 --> 00:18:21,642 all the videos we've watched, all the likes, 339 00:18:21,726 --> 00:18:25,354 that all gets brought back into building a more and more accurate model. 340 00:18:25,896 --> 00:18:27,481 The model, once you have it, 341 00:18:27,565 --> 00:18:29,859 you can predict the kinds of things that person does. 342 00:18:29,942 --> 00:18:31,777 Right, let me just test. 343 00:18:32,570 --> 00:18:34,989 [Tristan] Where you'll go. I can predict what kind of videos 344 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:36,115 will keep you watching. 345 00:18:36,198 --> 00:18:39,160 I can predict what kinds of emotions tend to trigger you. 346 00:18:39,243 --> 00:18:40,411 [blue AI] Yes, perfect. 347 00:18:41,579 --> 00:18:43,372 The most epic fails of the year. 348 00:18:46,125 --> 00:18:47,543 -[crowd groans on video] -[whooshes] 349 00:18:48,628 --> 00:18:51,880 -Perfect. That worked. -Following with another video. 350 00:18:51,172 --> 00:18:54,500 Beautiful. Let's squeeze in a sneaker ad before it starts. 351 00:18:56,427 --> 00:18:58,179 [Tristan] At a lot of technology companies, 352 00:18:58,262 --> 00:18:59,722 there's three main goals. 353 00:18:59,805 --> 00:19:01,349 There's the engagement goal: 354 00:19:01,432 --> 00:19:03,684 to drive up your usage, to keep you scrolling. 355 00:19:04,602 --> 00:19:06,145 There's the growth goal: 356 00:19:06,228 --> 00:19:08,689 to keep you coming back and inviting as many friends 357 00:19:08,773 --> 00:19:10,816 and getting them to invite more friends. 358 00:19:11,650 --> 00:19:13,152 And then there's the advertising goal: 359 00:19:13,235 --> 00:19:14,987 to make sure that, as all that's happening, 360 00:19:15,710 --> 00:19:17,406 we're making as much money as possible from advertising. 361 00:19:18,115 --> 00:19:19,158 [console beeps] 362 00:19:19,241 --> 00:19:21,994 Each of these goals are powered by algorithms 363 00:19:22,780 --> 00:19:24,455 whose job is to figure out what to show you 364 00:19:24,538 --> 00:19:26,165 to keep those numbers going up. 365 00:19:26,624 --> 00:19:29,919 We often talked about, at Facebook, this idea 366 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,600 of being able to just dial that as needed. 367 00:19:34,673 --> 00:19:38,594 And, you know, we talked about having Mark have those dials. 368 00:19:41,305 --> 00:19:44,475 "Hey, I want more users in Korea today." 369 00:19:45,684 --> 00:19:46,602 "Turn the dial." 370 00:19:47,436 --> 00:19:49,188 "Let's dial up the ads a little bit." 371 00:19:49,980 --> 00:19:51,899 "Dial up monetization, just slightly." 372 00:19:52,858 --> 00:19:55,444 And so, that happ-- 373 00:19:55,528 --> 00:19:59,240 I mean, at all of these companies, there is that level of precision. 374 00:19:59,990 --> 00:20:02,410 -Dude, how-- -I don't know how I didn't get carded. 375 00:20:02,493 --> 00:20:05,705 -That ref just, like, sucked or something. -You got literally all the way... 376 00:20:05,788 --> 00:20:07,957 -That's Rebecca. Go talk to her. -I know who it is. 377 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,835 -Dude, yo, go talk to her. -[guy] I'm workin' on it. 378 00:20:10,918 --> 00:20:14,171 His calendar says he's on a break right now. We should be live. 379 00:20:14,755 --> 00:20:16,465 [sighs] Want me to nudge him? 380 00:20:17,133 --> 00:20:18,500 Yeah, nudge away. 381 00:20:18,134 --> 00:20:19,930 [console beeps] 382 00:20:21,637 --> 00:20:24,181 "Your friend Tyler just joined. Say hi with a wave." 383 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:27,184 [Engagement AI] Come on, Ben. 384 00:20:27,268 --> 00:20:29,311 Send a wave. [sighs] 385 00:20:29,395 --> 00:20:32,606 -You're not... Go talk to her, dude. -[phone vibrates, chimes] 386 00:20:33,858 --> 00:20:35,484 -[Ben sighs] -[cell phone chimes] 387 00:20:36,902 --> 00:20:37,987 [console beeps] 388 00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:40,448 New link! All right, we're on. [exhales] 389 00:20:40,948 --> 00:20:46,780 Follow that up with a post from User 079044238820, Rebecca. 390 00:20:46,162 --> 00:20:49,790 Good idea. GPS coordinates indicate that they're in close proximity. 391 00:20:55,921 --> 00:20:57,173 He's primed for an ad. 392 00:20:57,631 --> 00:20:58,632 Auction time. 393 00:21:00,134 --> 00:21:02,803 Sold! To Deep Fade hair wax. 394 00:21:03,387 --> 00:21:07,933 We had 468 interested bidders. We sold Ben at 3.262 cents for an impression. 395 00:21:08,851 --> 00:21:10,853 [melancholy piano music playing] 396 00:21:14,148 --> 00:21:15,650 [Ben sighs] 397 00:21:17,109 --> 00:21:18,736 [Jaron] We've created a world 398 00:21:18,819 --> 00:21:21,530 in which online connection has become primary, 399 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:23,908 especially for younger generations. 400 00:21:23,991 --> 00:21:28,329 And yet, in that world, any time two people connect, 401 00:21:29,163 --> 00:21:33,250 the only way it's financed is through a sneaky third person 402 00:21:33,334 --> 00:21:35,628 who's paying to manipulate those two people. 403 00:21:36,128 --> 00:21:39,381 So, we've created an entire global generation of people 404 00:21:39,465 --> 00:21:44,110 who are raised within a context where the very meaning of communication, 405 00:21:44,940 --> 00:21:47,431 the very meaning of culture, is manipulation. 406 00:21:47,515 --> 00:21:49,642 We've put deceit and sneakiness 407 00:21:49,725 --> 00:21:52,311 at the absolute center of everything we do. 408 00:22:05,616 --> 00:22:07,243 -[interviewer] Grab the... -[Tristan] Okay. 409 00:22:07,326 --> 00:22:09,286 -Where's it help to hold it? -[interviewer] Great. 410 00:22:09,370 --> 00:22:10,788 -[Tristan] Here? -[interviewer] Yeah. 411 00:22:10,871 --> 00:22:13,832 How does this come across on camera if I were to do, like, this move-- 412 00:22:13,916 --> 00:22:15,543 -[interviewer] We can-- -[blows] Like that? 413 00:22:15,626 --> 00:22:16,919 -[interviewer laughs] What? -Yeah. 414 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,400 -[interviewer] Do that again. -Exactly. Yeah. [blows] 415 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:20,589 Yeah. No, it's probably not... 416 00:22:20,673 --> 00:22:21,966 Like... yeah. 417 00:22:22,466 --> 00:22:23,884 I mean, this one is less... 418 00:22:29,682 --> 00:22:33,269 [interviewer laughs] Larissa's, like, actually freaking out over here. 419 00:22:34,728 --> 00:22:35,563 Is that good? 420 00:22:35,646 --> 00:22:37,773 [instrumental music playing] 421 00:22:37,856 --> 00:22:41,680 [Tristan] I was, like, five years old when I learned how to do magic. 422 00:22:41,151 --> 00:22:45,781 And I could fool adults, fully-grown adults with, like, PhDs. 423 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,710 Magicians were almost like the first neuroscientists 424 00:22:57,793 --> 00:22:58,961 and psychologists. 425 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,600 Like, they were the ones who first understood 426 00:23:02,890 --> 00:23:03,382 how people's minds work. 427 00:23:04,216 --> 00:23:07,678 They just, in real time, are testing lots and lots of stuff on people. 428 00:23:09,138 --> 00:23:11,140 A magician understands something, 429 00:23:11,223 --> 00:23:14,180 some part of your mind that we're not aware of. 430 00:23:14,101 --> 00:23:15,936 That's what makes the illusion work. 431 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,608 Doctors, lawyers, people who know how to build 747s or nuclear missiles, 432 00:23:20,691 --> 00:23:24,361 they don't know more about how their own mind is vulnerable. 433 00:23:24,445 --> 00:23:26,113 That's a separate discipline. 434 00:23:26,572 --> 00:23:28,991 And it's a discipline that applies to all human beings. 435 00:23:30,909 --> 00:23:34,790 From that perspective, you can have a very different understanding 436 00:23:34,163 --> 00:23:35,581 of what technology is doing. 437 00:23:36,874 --> 00:23:39,585 When I was at the Stanford Persuasive Technology Lab, 438 00:23:39,668 --> 00:23:41,450 this is what we learned. 439 00:23:41,629 --> 00:23:43,464 How could you use everything we know 440 00:23:43,547 --> 00:23:45,883 about the psychology of what persuades people 441 00:23:45,966 --> 00:23:48,385 and build that into technology? 442 00:23:48,469 --> 00:23:50,888 Now, many of you in the audience are geniuses already. 443 00:23:50,971 --> 00:23:55,851 I think that's true, but my goal is to turn you into a behavior-change genius. 444 00:23:56,852 --> 00:24:01,148 There are many prominent Silicon Valley figures who went through that class-- 445 00:24:01,231 --> 00:24:05,486 key growth figures at Facebook and Uber and... and other companies-- 446 00:24:05,569 --> 00:24:09,198 and learned how to make technology more persuasive, 447 00:24:09,615 --> 00:24:10,783 Tristan being one. 448 00:24:12,284 --> 00:24:14,620 [Tristan] Persuasive technology is just sort of design 449 00:24:14,703 --> 00:24:16,580 intentionally applied to the extreme, 450 00:24:16,664 --> 00:24:18,874 where we really want to modify someone's behavior. 451 00:24:18,957 --> 00:24:20,542 We want them to take this action. 452 00:24:20,626 --> 00:24:23,337 We want them to keep doing this with their finger. 453 00:24:23,420 --> 00:24:26,256 You pull down and you refresh, it's gonna be a new thing at the top. 454 00:24:26,340 --> 00:24:28,509 Pull down and refresh again, it's new. Every single time. 455 00:24:28,592 --> 00:24:33,722 Which, in psychology, we call a positive intermittent reinforcement. 456 00:24:33,806 --> 00:24:37,142 You don't know when you're gonna get it or if you're gonna get something, 457 00:24:37,226 --> 00:24:40,620 which operates just like the slot machines in Vegas. 458 00:24:40,145 --> 00:24:42,231 It's not enough that you use the product consciously, 459 00:24:42,314 --> 00:24:44,240 I wanna dig down deeper into the brain stem 460 00:24:44,108 --> 00:24:45,818 and implant, inside of you, 461 00:24:45,901 --> 00:24:47,653 an unconscious habit 462 00:24:47,736 --> 00:24:50,864 so that you are being programmed at a deeper level. 463 00:24:50,948 --> 00:24:52,116 You don't even realize it. 464 00:24:52,533 --> 00:24:54,340 [teacher] A man, James Marshall... 465 00:24:54,118 --> 00:24:56,286 [Tristan] Every time you see it there on the counter, 466 00:24:56,370 --> 00:24:59,790 and you just look at it, and you know if you reach over, 467 00:24:59,873 --> 00:25:01,333 it just might have something for you, 468 00:25:01,417 --> 00:25:03,877 so you play that slot machine to see what you got, right? 469 00:25:03,961 --> 00:25:06,460 That's not by accident. That's a design technique. 470 00:25:06,130 --> 00:25:08,632 [teacher] He brings a golden nugget to an officer 471 00:25:09,842 --> 00:25:11,301 in the army in San Francisco. 472 00:25:12,219 --> 00:25:15,389 Mind you, the... the population of San Francisco was only... 473 00:25:15,472 --> 00:25:17,433 [Jeff] Another example is photo tagging. 474 00:25:17,516 --> 00:25:19,643 -[teacher] The secret didn't last. -[phone vibrates] 475 00:25:19,727 --> 00:25:21,186 [Jeff] So, if you get an e-mail 476 00:25:21,270 --> 00:25:24,640 that says your friend just tagged you in a photo, 477 00:25:24,148 --> 00:25:28,569 of course you're going to click on that e-mail and look at the photo. 478 00:25:29,153 --> 00:25:31,822 It's not something you can just decide to ignore. 479 00:25:32,364 --> 00:25:34,158 This is deep-seated, like, 480 00:25:34,241 --> 00:25:36,326 human personality that they're tapping into. 481 00:25:36,410 --> 00:25:38,780 What you should be asking yourself is: 482 00:25:38,162 --> 00:25:40,289 "Why doesn't that e-mail contain the photo in it? 483 00:25:40,372 --> 00:25:42,458 It would be a lot easier to see the photo." 484 00:25:42,541 --> 00:25:45,919 When Facebook found that feature, they just dialed the hell out of that 485 00:25:46,300 --> 00:25:48,505 because they said, "This is gonna be a great way to grow activity. 486 00:25:48,589 --> 00:25:51,910 Let's just get people tagging each other in photos all day long." 487 00:25:51,175 --> 00:25:53,177 [upbeat techno music playing] 488 00:25:57,890 --> 00:25:58,891 [cell phone chimes] 489 00:25:59,349 --> 00:26:00,476 He commented. 490 00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:01,435 [Growth AI] Nice. 491 00:26:01,935 --> 00:26:04,688 Okay, Rebecca received it, and she is responding. 492 00:26:04,772 --> 00:26:07,566 All right, let Ben know that she's typing so we don't lose him. 493 00:26:07,649 --> 00:26:08,734 Activating ellipsis. 494 00:26:09,777 --> 00:26:11,945 [teacher continues speaking indistinctly] 495 00:26:13,697 --> 00:26:15,866 [tense instrumental music playing] 496 00:26:19,953 --> 00:26:21,330 Great, she posted. 497 00:26:21,455 --> 00:26:24,249 He's commenting on her comment about his comment on her post. 498 00:26:25,420 --> 00:26:26,418 Hold on, he stopped typing. 499 00:26:26,752 --> 00:26:27,753 Let's autofill. 500 00:26:28,420 --> 00:26:30,500 Emojis. He loves emojis. 501 00:26:33,842 --> 00:26:34,676 He went with fire. 502 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,804 [clicks tongue, sighs] I was rootin' for eggplant. 503 00:26:38,597 --> 00:26:42,726 [Tristan] There's an entire discipline and field called "growth hacking." 504 00:26:42,810 --> 00:26:47,147 Teams of engineers whose job is to hack people's psychology 505 00:26:47,231 --> 00:26:48,565 so they can get more growth. 506 00:26:48,649 --> 00:26:50,984 They can get more user sign-ups, more engagement. 507 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:52,861 They can get you to invite more people. 508 00:26:52,945 --> 00:26:55,989 After all the testing, all the iterating, all of this stuff, 509 00:26:56,730 --> 00:26:57,908 you know the single biggest thing we realized? 510 00:26:57,991 --> 00:27:00,702 Get any individual to seven friends in ten days. 511 00:27:01,954 --> 00:27:02,788 That was it. 512 00:27:02,871 --> 00:27:05,499 Chamath was the head of growth at Facebook early on, 513 00:27:05,582 --> 00:27:08,252 and he's very well known in the tech industry 514 00:27:08,335 --> 00:27:11,400 for pioneering a lot of the growth tactics 515 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,758 that were used to grow Facebook at incredible speed. 516 00:27:14,842 --> 00:27:18,554 And those growth tactics have then become the standard playbook for Silicon Valley. 517 00:27:18,637 --> 00:27:21,223 They were used at Uber and at a bunch of other companies. 518 00:27:21,306 --> 00:27:27,620 One of the things that he pioneered was the use of scientific A/B testing 519 00:27:27,145 --> 00:27:28,480 of small feature changes. 520 00:27:29,220 --> 00:27:30,941 Companies like Google and Facebook 521 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,570 would roll out lots of little, tiny experiments 522 00:27:34,653 --> 00:27:36,822 that they were constantly doing on users. 523 00:27:36,905 --> 00:27:39,867 And over time, by running these constant experiments, 524 00:27:39,950 --> 00:27:43,360 you... you develop the most optimal way 525 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:45,289 to get users to do what you want them to do. 526 00:27:45,372 --> 00:27:46,790 It's... It's manipulation. 527 00:27:47,332 --> 00:27:49,459 [interviewer] Uh, you're making me feel like a lab rat. 528 00:27:49,835 --> 00:27:51,920 You are a lab rat. We're all lab rats. 529 00:27:52,546 --> 00:27:55,549 And it's not like we're lab rats for developing a cure for cancer. 530 00:27:55,632 --> 00:27:58,135 It's not like they're trying to benefit us. 531 00:27:58,218 --> 00:28:01,680 Right? We're just zombies, and they want us to look at more ads 532 00:28:01,763 --> 00:28:03,181 so they can make more money. 533 00:28:03,557 --> 00:28:05,267 [Shoshana] Facebook conducted 534 00:28:05,350 --> 00:28:08,228 what they called "massive-scale contagion experiments." 535 00:28:08,312 --> 00:28:09,146 Okay. 536 00:28:09,229 --> 00:28:13,660 [Shoshana] How do we use subliminal cues on the Facebook pages 537 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,654 to get more people to go vote in the midterm elections? 538 00:28:17,988 --> 00:28:20,824 And they discovered that they were able to do that. 539 00:28:20,908 --> 00:28:24,161 One thing they concluded is that we now know 540 00:28:24,745 --> 00:28:28,916 we can affect real-world behavior and emotions 541 00:28:28,999 --> 00:28:32,878 without ever triggering the user's awareness. 542 00:28:33,378 --> 00:28:37,382 They are completely clueless. 543 00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:41,970 We're pointing these engines of AI back at ourselves 544 00:28:42,540 --> 00:28:46,225 to reverse-engineer what elicits responses from us. 545 00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:49,561 Almost like you're stimulating nerve cells on a spider 546 00:28:49,645 --> 00:28:51,480 to see what causes its legs to respond. 547 00:28:51,939 --> 00:28:53,941 So, it really is this kind of prison experiment 548 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,735 where we're just, you know, roping people into the matrix, 549 00:28:56,818 --> 00:29:00,572 and we're just harvesting all this money and... and data from all their activity 550 00:29:00,656 --> 00:29:01,490 to profit from. 551 00:29:01,573 --> 00:29:03,450 And we're not even aware that it's happening. 552 00:29:04,117 --> 00:29:07,913 So, we want to psychologically figure out how to manipulate you as fast as possible 553 00:29:07,996 --> 00:29:10,820 and then give you back that dopamine hit. 554 00:29:10,165 --> 00:29:12,376 We did that brilliantly at Facebook. 555 00:29:12,626 --> 00:29:14,920 Instagram has done it. WhatsApp has done it. 556 00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:17,381 You know, Snapchat has done it. Twitter has done it. 557 00:29:17,464 --> 00:29:19,424 I mean, it's exactly the kind of thing 558 00:29:19,508 --> 00:29:22,427 that a... that a hacker like myself would come up with 559 00:29:22,511 --> 00:29:27,150 because you're exploiting a vulnerability in... in human psychology. 560 00:29:27,808 --> 00:29:29,726 [chuckles] And I just... I think that we... 561 00:29:29,810 --> 00:29:33,438 you know, the inventors, creators... 562 00:29:33,981 --> 00:29:37,317 uh, you know, and it's me, it's Mark, it's the... 563 00:29:37,401 --> 00:29:40,404 you know, Kevin Systrom at Instagram... It's all of these people... 564 00:29:40,487 --> 00:29:46,451 um, understood this consciously, and we did it anyway. 565 00:29:50,580 --> 00:29:53,750 No one got upset when bicycles showed up. 566 00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:58,500 Right? Like, if everyone's starting to go around on bicycles, 567 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:00,924 no one said, "Oh, my God, we've just ruined society. 568 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,510 [chuckles] Like, bicycles are affecting people. 569 00:30:03,135 --> 00:30:05,303 They're pulling people away from their kids. 570 00:30:05,387 --> 00:30:08,724 They're ruining the fabric of democracy. People can't tell what's true." 571 00:30:08,807 --> 00:30:11,476 Like, we never said any of that stuff about a bicycle. 572 00:30:12,769 --> 00:30:16,148 If something is a tool, it genuinely is just sitting there, 573 00:30:16,732 --> 00:30:18,734 waiting patiently. 574 00:30:19,317 --> 00:30:22,821 If something is not a tool, it's demanding things from you. 575 00:30:22,904 --> 00:30:26,533 It's seducing you. It's manipulating you. It wants things from you. 576 00:30:26,950 --> 00:30:30,495 And we've moved away from having a tools-based technology environment 577 00:30:31,380 --> 00:30:34,499 to an addiction- and manipulation-based technology environment. 578 00:30:34,583 --> 00:30:35,709 That's what's changed. 579 00:30:35,792 --> 00:30:39,421 Social media isn't a tool that's just waiting to be used. 580 00:30:39,504 --> 00:30:43,467 It has its own goals, and it has its own means of pursuing them 581 00:30:43,550 --> 00:30:45,677 by using your psychology against you. 582 00:30:45,761 --> 00:30:47,763 [ominous instrumental music playing] 583 00:30:57,564 --> 00:31:00,567 [Tim] Rewind a few years ago, I was the... 584 00:31:00,650 --> 00:31:02,319 I was the president of Pinterest. 585 00:31:03,153 --> 00:31:05,113 I was coming home, 586 00:31:05,197 --> 00:31:08,366 and I couldn't get off my phone once I got home, 587 00:31:08,450 --> 00:31:12,162 despite having two young kids who needed my love and attention. 588 00:31:12,245 --> 00:31:15,749 I was in the pantry, you know, typing away on an e-mail 589 00:31:15,832 --> 00:31:17,542 or sometimes looking at Pinterest. 590 00:31:18,100 --> 00:31:19,628 I thought, "God, this is classic irony. 591 00:31:19,711 --> 00:31:22,470 I am going to work during the day 592 00:31:22,130 --> 00:31:26,426 and building something that then I am falling prey to." 593 00:31:26,510 --> 00:31:30,970 And I couldn't... I mean, some of those moments, I couldn't help myself. 594 00:31:30,180 --> 00:31:31,848 -[notification chimes] -[woman gasps] 595 00:31:32,307 --> 00:31:36,103 The one that I'm... I'm most prone to is Twitter. 596 00:31:36,186 --> 00:31:38,210 Uh, used to be Reddit. 597 00:31:38,105 --> 00:31:42,859 I actually had to write myself software to break my addiction to reading Reddit. 598 00:31:42,943 --> 00:31:44,903 -[notifications chime] -[slot machines whir] 599 00:31:45,403 --> 00:31:47,781 I'm probably most addicted to my e-mail. 600 00:31:47,864 --> 00:31:49,866 I mean, really. I mean, I... I feel it. 601 00:31:49,950 --> 00:31:51,409 -[notifications chime] -[woman gasps] 602 00:31:51,493 --> 00:31:52,494 [electricity crackles] 603 00:31:52,577 --> 00:31:54,955 Well, I mean, it's sort-- it's interesting 604 00:31:55,380 --> 00:31:58,166 that knowing what was going on behind the curtain, 605 00:31:58,250 --> 00:32:01,628 I still wasn't able to control my usage. 606 00:32:01,711 --> 00:32:03,460 So, that's a little scary. 607 00:32:03,630 --> 00:32:07,500 Even knowing how these tricks work, I'm still susceptible to them. 608 00:32:07,134 --> 00:32:09,886 I'll still pick up the phone, and 20 minutes will disappear. 609 00:32:09,970 --> 00:32:11,388 [notifications chime] 610 00:32:11,471 --> 00:32:12,722 -[fluid rushes] -[woman gasps] 611 00:32:12,806 --> 00:32:15,725 Do you check your smartphone before you pee in the morning 612 00:32:15,809 --> 00:32:17,477 or while you're peeing in the morning? 613 00:32:17,561 --> 00:32:19,479 'Cause those are the only two choices. 614 00:32:19,563 --> 00:32:23,275 I tried through willpower, just pure willpower... 615 00:32:23,358 --> 00:32:26,903 "I'll put down my phone, I'll leave my phone in the car when I get home." 616 00:32:26,987 --> 00:32:30,574 I think I told myself a thousand times, a thousand different days, 617 00:32:30,657 --> 00:32:32,617 "I am not gonna bring my phone to the bedroom," 618 00:32:32,701 --> 00:32:34,536 and then 9:00 p.m. rolls around. 619 00:32:34,619 --> 00:32:37,122 "Well, I wanna bring my phone in the bedroom." 620 00:32:37,205 --> 00:32:39,291 [takes a deep breath] And so, that was sort of... 621 00:32:39,374 --> 00:32:41,126 Willpower was kind of attempt one, 622 00:32:41,209 --> 00:32:44,296 and then attempt two was, you know, brute force. 623 00:32:44,379 --> 00:32:48,910 [announcer] Introducing the Kitchen Safe. The Kitchen Safe is a revolutionary, 624 00:32:48,175 --> 00:32:51,678 new, time-locking container that helps you fight temptation. 625 00:32:51,761 --> 00:32:56,725 All David has to do is place those temptations in the Kitchen Safe. 626 00:32:57,392 --> 00:33:00,395 Next, he rotates the dial to set the timer. 627 00:33:01,479 --> 00:33:04,232 And, finally, he presses the dial to activate the lock. 628 00:33:04,316 --> 00:33:05,525 The Kitchen Safe is great... 629 00:33:05,609 --> 00:33:06,776 We have that, don't we? 630 00:33:06,860 --> 00:33:08,653 ...video games, credit cards, and cell phones. 631 00:33:08,737 --> 00:33:09,654 Yeah, we do. 632 00:33:09,738 --> 00:33:12,407 [announcer] Once the Kitchen Safe is locked, it cannot be opened 633 00:33:12,490 --> 00:33:13,867 until the timer reaches zero. 634 00:33:13,950 --> 00:33:15,619 [Anna] So, here's the thing. 635 00:33:15,702 --> 00:33:17,537 Social media is a drug. 636 00:33:17,621 --> 00:33:20,874 I mean, we have a basic biological imperative 637 00:33:20,957 --> 00:33:23,840 to connect with other people. 638 00:33:23,168 --> 00:33:28,215 That directly affects the release of dopamine in the reward pathway. 639 00:33:28,298 --> 00:33:32,552 Millions of years of evolution, um, are behind that system 640 00:33:32,636 --> 00:33:35,597 to get us to come together and live in communities, 641 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,160 to find mates, to propagate our species. 642 00:33:38,990 --> 00:33:41,853 So, there's no doubt that a vehicle like social media, 643 00:33:41,937 --> 00:33:45,690 which optimizes this connection between people, 644 00:33:45,774 --> 00:33:48,568 is going to have the potential for addiction. 645 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,115 -Mmm! [laughs] -Dad, stop! 646 00:33:55,450 --> 00:33:58,453 I have, like, 1,000 more snips to send before dinner. 647 00:33:58,536 --> 00:34:00,789 -[dad] Snips? -I don't know what a snip is. 648 00:34:00,872 --> 00:34:03,208 -Mm, that smells good, baby. -All right. Thank you. 649 00:34:03,291 --> 00:34:05,877 I was, um, thinking we could use all five senses 650 00:34:05,961 --> 00:34:07,712 to enjoy our dinner tonight. 651 00:34:07,796 --> 00:34:11,383 So, I decided that we're not gonna have any cell phones at the table tonight. 652 00:34:11,466 --> 00:34:13,301 So, turn 'em in. 653 00:34:13,802 --> 00:34:14,803 -Really? -[mom] Yep. 654 00:34:15,929 --> 00:34:18,560 -All right. -Thank you. Ben? 655 00:34:18,139 --> 00:34:20,433 -Okay. -Mom, the phone pirate. [scoffs] 656 00:34:21,101 --> 00:34:21,935 -Got it. -Mom! 657 00:34:22,519 --> 00:34:26,147 So, they will be safe in here until after dinner... 658 00:34:27,274 --> 00:34:30,652 -and everyone can just chill out. -[safe whirs] 659 00:34:30,735 --> 00:34:31,570 Okay? 660 00:34:40,829 --> 00:34:41,705 [Cass sighs] 661 00:34:45,709 --> 00:34:47,430 [notification chimes] 662 00:34:47,419 --> 00:34:49,254 -Can I just see who it is? -No. 663 00:34:54,759 --> 00:34:56,970 Just gonna go get another fork. 664 00:34:58,305 --> 00:34:59,264 Thank you. 665 00:35:04,728 --> 00:35:06,771 Honey, you can't open that. 666 00:35:06,855 --> 00:35:09,316 I locked it for an hour, so just leave it alone. 667 00:35:11,192 --> 00:35:13,361 So, what should we talk about? 668 00:35:13,445 --> 00:35:14,696 Well, we could talk 669 00:35:14,779 --> 00:35:17,615 about the, uh, Extreme Center wackos I drove by today. 670 00:35:17,699 --> 00:35:18,825 -[mom] Please, Frank. -What? 671 00:35:18,908 --> 00:35:20,785 [mom] I don't wanna talk about politics. 672 00:35:20,869 --> 00:35:23,538 -What's wrong with the Extreme Center? -See? He doesn't even get it. 673 00:35:23,621 --> 00:35:24,622 It depends on who you ask. 674 00:35:24,706 --> 00:35:26,624 It's like asking, "What's wrong with propaganda?" 675 00:35:26,708 --> 00:35:28,376 -[safe smashes] -[mom and Frank scream] 676 00:35:28,710 --> 00:35:29,711 [Frank] Isla! 677 00:35:32,797 --> 00:35:33,757 Oh, my God. 678 00:35:36,426 --> 00:35:38,553 -[sighs] Do you want me to... -[mom] Yeah. 679 00:35:41,973 --> 00:35:43,933 [Anna] I... I'm worried about my kids. 680 00:35:44,170 --> 00:35:46,686 And if you have kids, I'm worried about your kids. 681 00:35:46,770 --> 00:35:50,190 Armed with all the knowledge that I have and all of the experience, 682 00:35:50,273 --> 00:35:52,108 I am fighting my kids about the time 683 00:35:52,192 --> 00:35:54,444 that they spend on phones and on the computer. 684 00:35:54,527 --> 00:35:58,198 I will say to my son, "How many hours do you think you're spending on your phone?" 685 00:35:58,281 --> 00:36:01,760 He'll be like, "It's, like, half an hour. It's half an hour, tops." 686 00:36:01,159 --> 00:36:04,829 I'd say upwards hour, hour and a half. 687 00:36:04,913 --> 00:36:06,790 I looked at his screen report a couple weeks ago. 688 00:36:06,873 --> 00:36:08,708 -Three hours and 45 minutes. -[James] That... 689 00:36:11,378 --> 00:36:13,588 I don't think that's... No. Per day, on average? 690 00:36:13,671 --> 00:36:15,507 -Yeah. -Should I go get it right now? 691 00:36:15,590 --> 00:36:19,177 There's not a day that goes by that I don't remind my kids 692 00:36:19,260 --> 00:36:21,763 about the pleasure-pain balance, 693 00:36:21,846 --> 00:36:24,391 about dopamine deficit states, 694 00:36:24,474 --> 00:36:26,267 about the risk of addiction. 695 00:36:26,351 --> 00:36:27,310 [Mary] Moment of truth. 696 00:36:27,936 --> 00:36:29,688 Two hours, 50 minutes per day. 697 00:36:29,771 --> 00:36:31,773 -Let's see. -Actually, I've been using a lot today. 698 00:36:31,856 --> 00:36:33,358 -Last seven days. -That's probably why. 699 00:36:33,441 --> 00:36:37,362 Instagram, six hours, 13 minutes. Okay, so my Instagram's worse. 700 00:36:39,572 --> 00:36:41,991 My screen's completely shattered. 701 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:43,201 Thanks, Cass. 702 00:36:44,411 --> 00:36:45,995 What do you mean, "Thanks, Cass"? 703 00:36:46,790 --> 00:36:49,400 You keep freaking Mom out about our phones when it's not really a problem. 704 00:36:49,374 --> 00:36:51,167 We don't need our phones to eat dinner! 705 00:36:51,251 --> 00:36:53,878 I get what you're saying. It's just not that big a deal. It's not. 706 00:36:56,470 --> 00:36:58,383 If it's not that big a deal, don't use it for a week. 707 00:36:59,634 --> 00:37:00,593 [Ben sighs] 708 00:37:01,136 --> 00:37:06,349 Yeah. Yeah, actually, if you can put that thing away for, like, a whole week... 709 00:37:07,726 --> 00:37:09,519 I will buy you a new screen. 710 00:37:10,979 --> 00:37:12,897 -Like, starting now? -[mom] Starting now. 711 00:37:15,150 --> 00:37:16,860 -Okay. You got a deal. -[mom] Okay. 712 00:37:16,943 --> 00:37:19,112 Okay, you gotta leave it here, though, buddy. 713 00:37:19,863 --> 00:37:21,364 All right, I'm plugging it in. 714 00:37:22,532 --> 00:37:25,760 Let the record show... I'm backing away. 715 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:25,994 Okay. 716 00:37:27,787 --> 00:37:29,414 -You're on the clock. -[Ben] One week. 717 00:37:29,497 --> 00:37:30,331 Oh, my... 718 00:37:31,458 --> 00:37:32,417 Think he can do it? 719 00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:34,252 I don't know. We'll see. 720 00:37:35,300 --> 00:37:36,129 Just eat, okay? 721 00:37:44,220 --> 00:37:45,263 Good family dinner! 722 00:37:47,682 --> 00:37:49,809 [Tristan] These technology products were not designed 723 00:37:49,893 --> 00:37:53,897 by child psychologists who are trying to protect and nurture children. 724 00:37:53,980 --> 00:37:56,149 They were just designing to make these algorithms 725 00:37:56,232 --> 00:37:58,735 that were really good at recommending the next video to you 726 00:37:58,818 --> 00:38:02,322 or really good at getting you to take a photo with a filter on it. 727 00:38:15,710 --> 00:38:16,669 [cell phone chimes] 728 00:38:16,753 --> 00:38:18,880 [Tristan] It's not just that it's controlling 729 00:38:18,963 --> 00:38:20,548 where they spend their attention. 730 00:38:21,174 --> 00:38:26,304 Especially social media starts to dig deeper and deeper down into the brain stem 731 00:38:26,387 --> 00:38:29,766 and take over kids' sense of self-worth and identity. 732 00:38:41,736 --> 00:38:42,904 [notifications chiming] 733 00:38:52,372 --> 00:38:56,209 [Tristan] We evolved to care about whether other people in our tribe... 734 00:38:56,751 --> 00:38:59,128 think well of us or not 'cause it matters. 735 00:38:59,838 --> 00:39:04,551 But were we evolved to be aware of what 10,000 people think of us? 736 00:39:04,634 --> 00:39:08,763 We were not evolved to have social approval being dosed to us 737 00:39:08,847 --> 00:39:10,348 every five minutes. 738 00:39:10,431 --> 00:39:13,142 That was not at all what we were built to experience. 739 00:39:15,395 --> 00:39:19,983 [Chamath] We curate our lives around this perceived sense of perfection 740 00:39:20,733 --> 00:39:23,528 because we get rewarded in these short-term signals-- 741 00:39:23,611 --> 00:39:25,154 hearts, likes, thumbs-up-- 742 00:39:25,238 --> 00:39:28,408 and we conflate that with value, and we conflate it with truth. 743 00:39:29,826 --> 00:39:33,121 And instead, what it really is is fake, brittle popularity... 744 00:39:33,913 --> 00:39:37,458 that's short-term and that leaves you even more, and admit it, 745 00:39:37,542 --> 00:39:39,919 vacant and empty before you did it. 746 00:39:41,296 --> 00:39:43,381 Because then it forces you into this vicious cycle 747 00:39:43,464 --> 00:39:47,176 where you're like, "What's the next thing I need to do now? 'Cause I need it back." 748 00:39:48,261 --> 00:39:50,847 Think about that compounded by two billion people, 749 00:39:50,930 --> 00:39:54,767 and then think about how people react then to the perceptions of others. 750 00:39:54,851 --> 00:39:56,436 It's just a... It's really bad. 751 00:39:56,978 --> 00:39:58,229 It's really, really bad. 752 00:40:00,857 --> 00:40:03,484 [Jonathan] There has been a gigantic increase 753 00:40:03,568 --> 00:40:06,529 in depression and anxiety for American teenagers 754 00:40:06,613 --> 00:40:10,950 which began right around... between 2011 and 2013. 755 00:40:11,340 --> 00:40:15,371 The number of teenage girls out of 100,000 in this country 756 00:40:15,455 --> 00:40:17,123 who were admitted to a hospital every year 757 00:40:17,206 --> 00:40:19,918 because they cut themselves or otherwise harmed themselves, 758 00:40:20,100 --> 00:40:23,921 that number was pretty stable until around 2010, 2011, 759 00:40:24,500 --> 00:40:25,757 and then it begins going way up. 760 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,513 It's up 62 percent for older teen girls. 761 00:40:33,848 --> 00:40:38,311 It's up 189 percent for the preteen girls. That's nearly triple. 762 00:40:40,313 --> 00:40:43,524 Even more horrifying, we see the same pattern with suicide. 763 00:40:44,776 --> 00:40:47,570 The older teen girls, 15 to 19 years old, 764 00:40:47,654 --> 00:40:49,197 they're up 70 percent, 765 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,699 compared to the first decade of this century. 766 00:40:52,158 --> 00:40:55,780 The preteen girls, who have very low rates to begin with, 767 00:40:55,161 --> 00:40:57,664 they are up 151 percent. 768 00:40:58,831 --> 00:41:01,709 And that pattern points to social media. 769 00:41:04,450 --> 00:41:07,215 Gen Z, the kids born after 1996 or so, 770 00:41:07,298 --> 00:41:10,343 those kids are the first generation in history 771 00:41:10,426 --> 00:41:12,637 that got on social media in middle school. 772 00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:14,722 [thunder rumbling in distance] 773 00:41:15,890 --> 00:41:17,600 [Jonathan] How do they spend their time? 774 00:41:19,727 --> 00:41:22,730 They come home from school, and they're on their devices. 775 00:41:24,315 --> 00:41:29,195 A whole generation is more anxious, more fragile, more depressed. 776 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:30,530 -[thunder rumbles] -[Isla gasps] 777 00:41:30,613 --> 00:41:33,282 [Jonathan] They're much less comfortable taking risks. 778 00:41:34,325 --> 00:41:37,537 The rates at which they get driver's licenses have been dropping. 779 00:41:38,955 --> 00:41:41,820 The number who have ever gone out on a date 780 00:41:41,165 --> 00:41:44,252 or had any kind of romantic interaction is dropping rapidly. 781 00:41:47,505 --> 00:41:49,716 This is a real change in a generation. 782 00:41:53,177 --> 00:41:57,306 And remember, for every one of these, for every hospital admission, 783 00:41:57,390 --> 00:42:00,268 there's a family that is traumatized and horrified. 784 00:42:00,351 --> 00:42:02,353 "My God, what is happening to our kids?" 785 00:42:08,735 --> 00:42:09,694 [Isla sighs] 786 00:42:19,412 --> 00:42:21,414 [Tim] It's plain as day to me. 787 00:42:22,874 --> 00:42:28,129 These services are killing people... and causing people to kill themselves. 788 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,301 I don't know any parent who says, "Yeah, I really want my kids to be growing up 789 00:42:33,384 --> 00:42:36,888 feeling manipulated by tech designers, uh, 790 00:42:36,971 --> 00:42:39,724 manipulating their attention, making it impossible to do their homework, 791 00:42:39,807 --> 00:42:42,560 making them compare themselves to unrealistic standards of beauty." 792 00:42:42,643 --> 00:42:44,687 Like, no one wants that. [chuckles] 793 00:42:45,104 --> 00:42:46,355 No one does. 794 00:42:46,439 --> 00:42:48,483 We... We used to have these protections. 795 00:42:48,566 --> 00:42:50,943 When children watched Saturday morning cartoons, 796 00:42:51,270 --> 00:42:52,779 we cared about protecting children. 797 00:42:52,862 --> 00:42:56,574 We would say, "You can't advertise to these age children in these ways." 798 00:42:57,366 --> 00:42:58,785 But then you take YouTube for Kids, 799 00:42:58,868 --> 00:43:02,455 and it gobbles up that entire portion of the attention economy, 800 00:43:02,538 --> 00:43:04,916 and now all kids are exposed to YouTube for Kids. 801 00:43:04,999 --> 00:43:07,710 And all those protections and all those regulations are gone. 802 00:43:08,211 --> 00:43:10,213 [tense instrumental music playing] 803 00:43:18,304 --> 00:43:22,141 [Tristan] We're training and conditioning a whole new generation of people... 804 00:43:23,434 --> 00:43:29,148 that when we are uncomfortable or lonely or uncertain or afraid, 805 00:43:29,232 --> 00:43:31,776 we have a digital pacifier for ourselves 806 00:43:32,235 --> 00:43:36,489 that is kind of atrophying our own ability to deal with that. 807 00:43:53,881 --> 00:43:55,675 [Tristan] Photoshop didn't have 1,000 engineers 808 00:43:55,758 --> 00:43:58,970 on the other side of the screen, using notifications, using your friends, 809 00:43:59,530 --> 00:44:02,431 using AI to predict what's gonna perfectly addict you, or hook you, 810 00:44:02,515 --> 00:44:04,517 or manipulate you, or allow advertisers 811 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,437 to test 60,000 variations of text or colors to figure out 812 00:44:08,521 --> 00:44:11,650 what's the perfect manipulation of your mind. 813 00:44:11,148 --> 00:44:14,986 This is a totally new species of power and influence. 814 00:44:16,700 --> 00:44:19,157 I... I would say, again, the methods used 815 00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:22,785 to play on people's ability to be addicted or to be influenced 816 00:44:22,869 --> 00:44:25,204 may be different this time, and they probably are different. 817 00:44:25,288 --> 00:44:28,749 They were different when newspapers came in and the printing press came in, 818 00:44:28,833 --> 00:44:31,836 and they were different when television came in, 819 00:44:31,919 --> 00:44:34,500 and you had three major networks and... 820 00:44:34,463 --> 00:44:36,424 -At the time. -At the time. That's what I'm saying. 821 00:44:36,507 --> 00:44:38,384 But I'm saying the idea that there's a new level 822 00:44:38,467 --> 00:44:42,540 and that new level has happened so many times before. 823 00:44:42,138 --> 00:44:45,990 I mean, this is just the latest new level that we've seen. 824 00:44:45,182 --> 00:44:48,728 There's this narrative that, you know, "We'll just adapt to it. 825 00:44:48,811 --> 00:44:51,188 We'll learn how to live with these devices, 826 00:44:51,272 --> 00:44:53,733 just like we've learned how to live with everything else." 827 00:44:53,816 --> 00:44:56,694 And what this misses is there's something distinctly new here. 828 00:44:57,486 --> 00:45:00,156 Perhaps the most dangerous piece of all this is the fact 829 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:04,410 that it's driven by technology that's advancing exponentially. 830 00:45:05,870 --> 00:45:09,810 Roughly, if you say from, like, the 1960s to today, 831 00:45:09,874 --> 00:45:12,960 processing power has gone up about a trillion times. 832 00:45:13,794 --> 00:45:18,341 Nothing else that we have has improved  at anything near that rate. 833 00:45:18,424 --> 00:45:22,178 Like, cars are, you know, roughly twice as fast. 834 00:45:22,261 --> 00:45:25,140 And almost everything else is negligible. 835 00:45:25,348 --> 00:45:27,183 And perhaps most importantly, 836 00:45:27,266 --> 00:45:31,354 our human-- our physiology, our brains have evolved not at all. 837 00:45:37,401 --> 00:45:41,489 [Tristan] Human beings, at a mind and body and sort of physical level, 838 00:45:41,948 --> 00:45:43,866 are not gonna fundamentally change. 839 00:45:44,825 --> 00:45:45,868 [indistinct chatter] 840 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:48,955 [chuckling] I know, but they... 841 00:45:49,380 --> 00:45:51,624 [continues speaking indistinctly] 842 00:45:53,584 --> 00:45:54,752 [camera shutter clicks] 843 00:45:56,837 --> 00:46:00,925 [Tristan] We can do genetic engineering and develop new kinds of human beings, 844 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,221 but realistically speaking, you're living inside of hardware, a brain, 845 00:46:05,304 --> 00:46:07,223 that was, like, millions of years old, 846 00:46:07,306 --> 00:46:10,559 and then there's this screen, and then on the opposite side of the screen, 847 00:46:10,643 --> 00:46:13,562 there's these thousands of engineers and supercomputers 848 00:46:13,646 --> 00:46:16,107 that have goals that are different than your goals, 849 00:46:16,190 --> 00:46:19,694 and so, who's gonna win in that game? Who's gonna win? 850 00:46:25,700 --> 00:46:26,617 How are we losing? 851 00:46:27,159 --> 00:46:29,829 -I don't know. -Where is he? This is not normal. 852 00:46:29,912 --> 00:46:32,810 Did I overwhelm him with friends and family content? 853 00:46:32,164 --> 00:46:34,830 -Probably. -Well, maybe it was all the ads. 854 00:46:34,166 --> 00:46:37,795 No. Something's very wrong. Let's switch to resurrection mode. 855 00:46:39,714 --> 00:46:44,510 [Tristan] When you think of AI, you know, an AI's gonna ruin the world, 856 00:46:44,135 --> 00:46:47,221 and you see, like, a Terminator, and you see Arnold Schwarzenegger. 857 00:46:47,638 --> 00:46:48,681 I'll be back. 858 00:46:48,764 --> 00:46:50,933 [Tristan] You see drones, and you think, like, 859 00:46:51,170 --> 00:46:52,685 "Oh, we're gonna kill people with AI." 860 00:46:53,644 --> 00:46:59,817 And what people miss is that AI already runs today's world right now. 861 00:46:59,900 --> 00:47:03,237 Even talking about "an AI" is just a metaphor. 862 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:09,452 At these companies like... like Google, there's just massive, massive rooms, 863 00:47:10,327 --> 00:47:13,122 some of them underground, some of them underwater, 864 00:47:13,205 --> 00:47:14,498 of just computers. 865 00:47:14,582 --> 00:47:17,835 Tons and tons of computers, as far as the eye can see. 866 00:47:18,461 --> 00:47:20,504 They're deeply interconnected with each other 867 00:47:20,588 --> 00:47:22,923 and running extremely complicated programs, 868 00:47:23,700 --> 00:47:26,100 sending information back and forth between each other all the time. 869 00:47:26,802 --> 00:47:28,596 And they'll be running many different programs, 870 00:47:28,679 --> 00:47:31,150 many different products on those same machines. 871 00:47:31,349 --> 00:47:33,684 Some of those things could be described as simple algorithms, 872 00:47:33,768 --> 00:47:35,227 some could be described as algorithms 873 00:47:35,311 --> 00:47:37,521 that are so complicated, you would call them intelligence. 874 00:47:39,230 --> 00:47:39,982 [crew member sighs] 875 00:47:40,660 --> 00:47:42,568 [Cathy] I like to say that algorithms are opinions 876 00:47:42,651 --> 00:47:43,778 embedded in code... 877 00:47:45,710 --> 00:47:47,656 and that algorithms are not objective. 878 00:47:48,365 --> 00:47:51,577 Algorithms are optimized to some definition of success. 879 00:47:52,244 --> 00:47:53,370 So, if you can imagine, 880 00:47:53,454 --> 00:47:57,124 if a... if a commercial enterprise builds an algorithm 881 00:47:57,208 --> 00:47:59,293 to their definition of success, 882 00:47:59,835 --> 00:48:01,212 it's a commercial interest. 883 00:48:01,587 --> 00:48:02,671 It's usually profit. 884 00:48:03,130 --> 00:48:07,384 You are giving the computer the goal state, "I want this outcome," 885 00:48:07,468 --> 00:48:10,262 and then the computer itself is learning how to do it. 886 00:48:10,346 --> 00:48:12,598 That's where the term "machine learning" comes from. 887 00:48:12,681 --> 00:48:14,850 And so, every day, it gets slightly better 888 00:48:14,934 --> 00:48:16,977 at picking the right posts in the right order 889 00:48:17,610 --> 00:48:19,438 so that you spend longer and longer in that product. 890 00:48:19,522 --> 00:48:22,233 And no one really understands what they're doing 891 00:48:22,316 --> 00:48:23,901 in order to achieve that goal. 892 00:48:23,984 --> 00:48:28,239 The algorithm has a mind of its own, so even though a person writes it, 893 00:48:28,906 --> 00:48:30,658 it's written in a way 894 00:48:30,741 --> 00:48:35,370 that you kind of build the machine, and then the machine changes itself. 895 00:48:35,121 --> 00:48:37,873 There's only a handful of people at these companies, 896 00:48:37,957 --> 00:48:40,000 at Facebook and Twitter and other companies... 897 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,796 There's only a few people who understand how those systems work, 898 00:48:43,879 --> 00:48:46,715 and even they don't necessarily fully understand 899 00:48:46,799 --> 00:48:49,552 what's gonna happen with a particular piece of content. 900 00:48:49,969 --> 00:48:55,474 So, as humans, we've almost lost control over these systems. 901 00:48:55,891 --> 00:48:59,603 Because they're controlling, you know, the information that we see, 902 00:48:59,687 --> 00:49:02,189 they're controlling us more than we're controlling them. 903 00:49:02,523 --> 00:49:04,733 -[console whirs] -[Growth AI] Cross-referencing him 904 00:49:04,817 --> 00:49:07,319 against comparables in his geographic zone. 905 00:49:07,403 --> 00:49:09,572 His psychometric doppelgangers. 906 00:49:09,655 --> 00:49:13,701 There are 13,694 people behaving just like him in his region. 907 00:49:13,784 --> 00:49:16,370 -What's trending with them? -We need something actually good 908 00:49:16,454 --> 00:49:17,705 for a proper resurrection, 909 00:49:17,788 --> 00:49:19,957 given that the typical stuff isn't working. 910 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:21,876 Not even that cute girl from school. 911 00:49:22,334 --> 00:49:25,254 My analysis shows that going political with Extreme Center content 912 00:49:25,337 --> 00:49:28,257 has a 62.3 percent chance of long-term engagement. 913 00:49:28,340 --> 00:49:29,300 That's not bad. 914 00:49:29,383 --> 00:49:32,110 [sighs] It's not good enough to lead with. 915 00:49:32,303 --> 00:49:35,306 Okay, okay, so we've tried notifying him about tagged photos, 916 00:49:35,389 --> 00:49:39,180 invitations, current events, even a direct message from Rebecca. 917 00:49:39,101 --> 00:49:42,813 But what about User 01265923010? 918 00:49:42,897 --> 00:49:44,648 Yeah, Ben loved all of her posts. 919 00:49:44,732 --> 00:49:47,776 For months and, like, literally all of them, and then nothing. 920 00:49:47,860 --> 00:49:50,446 I calculate a 92.3 percent chance of resurrection 921 00:49:50,529 --> 00:49:52,310 with a notification about Ana. 922 00:49:56,535 --> 00:49:57,494 And her new friend. 923 00:49:59,622 --> 00:50:01,624 [eerie instrumental music playing] 924 00:50:10,591 --> 00:50:11,675 [cell phone vibrates] 925 00:50:25,689 --> 00:50:27,441 [Ben] Oh, you gotta be kiddin' me. 926 00:50:32,404 --> 00:50:33,614 Uh... [sighs] 927 00:50:35,658 --> 00:50:36,617 Okay. 928 00:50:38,869 --> 00:50:40,996 -What? -[fanfare plays, fireworks pop] 929 00:50:41,413 --> 00:50:42,790 [claps] Bam! We're back! 930 00:50:42,873 --> 00:50:44,375 Let's get back to making money, boys. 931 00:50:44,458 --> 00:50:46,335 Yes, and connecting Ben with the entire world. 932 00:50:46,418 --> 00:50:49,880 I'm giving him access to all the information he might like. 933 00:50:49,755 --> 00:50:53,717 Hey, do you guys ever wonder if, you know, like, the feed is good for Ben? 934 00:50:57,960 --> 00:50:58,430 -No. -No. [chuckles slightly] 935 00:51:00,307 --> 00:51:03,269 -[chuckles softly] -["I Put a Spell on You" playing] 936 00:51:17,491 --> 00:51:19,760 ♪ I put a spell on you ♪ 937 00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:26,375 ♪ 'Cause you're mine ♪ 938 00:51:28,627 --> 00:51:32,890 [vocalizing] ♪ Ah! ♪ 939 00:51:34,508 --> 00:51:36,593 ♪ You better stop the things you do ♪ 940 00:51:41,181 --> 00:51:42,266 ♪ I ain't lyin' ♪ 941 00:51:44,977 --> 00:51:46,687 ♪ No, I ain't lyin' ♪ 942 00:51:49,982 --> 00:51:51,817 ♪ You know I can't stand it ♪ 943 00:51:53,270 --> 00:51:54,611 ♪ You're runnin' around ♪ 944 00:51:55,612 --> 00:51:57,239 ♪ You know better, Daddy ♪ 945 00:51:58,782 --> 00:52:02,770 ♪ I can't stand it 'Cause you put me down ♪ 946 00:52:03,287 --> 00:52:04,121 ♪ Yeah, yeah ♪ 947 00:52:06,457 --> 00:52:08,375 ♪ I put a spell on you ♪ 948 00:52:12,379 --> 00:52:14,840 ♪ Because you're mine ♪ 949 00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:19,845 ♪ You're mine ♪ 950 00:52:20,929 --> 00:52:24,350 [Roger] So, imagine you're on Facebook... 951 00:52:24,767 --> 00:52:29,313 and you're effectively playing against this artificial intelligence 952 00:52:29,396 --> 00:52:31,315 that knows everything about you, 953 00:52:31,398 --> 00:52:34,568 can anticipate your next move, and you know literally nothing about it, 954 00:52:34,651 --> 00:52:37,404 except that there are cat videos and birthdays on it. 955 00:52:37,821 --> 00:52:39,657 That's not a fair fight. 956 00:52:41,575 --> 00:52:43,869 Ben and Jerry, it's time to go, bud! 957 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:48,874 [sighs] 958 00:52:51,126 --> 00:52:51,960 Ben? 959 00:53:01,110 --> 00:53:02,137 [knocks lightly on door] 960 00:53:02,679 --> 00:53:04,723 -[Cass] Ben. -[Ben] Mm. 961 00:53:05,182 --> 00:53:06,580 Come on. 962 00:53:07,226 --> 00:53:08,352 School time. [claps] 963 00:53:08,435 --> 00:53:09,269 Let's go. 964 00:53:12,189 --> 00:53:13,148 [Ben sighs] 965 00:53:25,119 --> 00:53:27,121 [excited chatter] 966 00:53:31,375 --> 00:53:33,627 -[tech] How you doing today? -Oh, I'm... I'm nervous. 967 00:53:33,710 --> 00:53:35,300 -Are ya? -Yeah. [chuckles] 968 00:53:37,381 --> 00:53:39,133 [Tristan] We were all looking for the moment 969 00:53:39,216 --> 00:53:42,970 when technology would overwhelm human strengths and intelligence. 970 00:53:43,530 --> 00:53:47,150 When is it gonna cross the singularity, replace our jobs, be smarter than humans? 971 00:53:48,142 --> 00:53:50,102 But there's this much earlier moment... 972 00:53:50,978 --> 00:53:55,315 when technology exceeds and overwhelms human weaknesses. 973 00:53:57,484 --> 00:54:01,780 This point being crossed is at the root of addiction, 974 00:54:02,114 --> 00:54:04,741 polarization, radicalization, outrage-ification, 975 00:54:04,825 --> 00:54:06,368 vanity-ification, the entire thing. 976 00:54:07,703 --> 00:54:09,913 This is overpowering human nature, 977 00:54:10,539 --> 00:54:13,500 and this is checkmate on humanity. 978 00:54:20,132 --> 00:54:21,884 -[sighs deeply] -[door opens] 979 00:54:30,559 --> 00:54:31,852 I'm sorry. [sighs] 980 00:54:37,608 --> 00:54:39,610 -[seat belt clicks] -[engine starts] 981 00:54:41,737 --> 00:54:44,656 [Jaron] One of the ways I try to get people to understand 982 00:54:45,199 --> 00:54:49,828 just how wrong feeds from places like Facebook are 983 00:54:49,912 --> 00:54:51,455 is to think about the Wikipedia. 984 00:54:52,956 --> 00:54:56,210 When you go to a page, you're seeing the same thing as other people. 985 00:54:56,585 --> 00:55:00,297 So, it's one of the few things online that we at least hold in common. 986 00:55:00,380 --> 00:55:03,425 Now, just imagine for a second that Wikipedia said, 987 00:55:03,509 --> 00:55:07,179 "We're gonna give each person a different customized definition, 988 00:55:07,262 --> 00:55:09,473 and we're gonna be paid by people for that." 989 00:55:09,556 --> 00:55:13,435 So, Wikipedia would be spying on you. Wikipedia would calculate, 990 00:55:13,519 --> 00:55:17,189 "What's the thing I can do to get this person to change a little bit 991 00:55:17,272 --> 00:55:19,900 on behalf of some commercial interest?" Right? 992 00:55:19,983 --> 00:55:21,818 And then it would change the entry. 993 00:55:22,444 --> 00:55:24,738 Can you imagine that? Well, you should be able to, 994 00:55:24,822 --> 00:55:26,823 'cause that's exactly what's happening on Facebook. 995 00:55:26,907 --> 00:55:28,992 It's exactly what's happening in your YouTube feed. 996 00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:31,787 When you go to Google and type in "Climate change is," 997 00:55:31,870 --> 00:55:34,998 you're going to see different results depending on where you live. 998 00:55:36,166 --> 00:55:38,460 In certain cities, you're gonna see it autocomplete 999 00:55:38,544 --> 00:55:40,462 with "climate change is a hoax." 1000 00:55:40,546 --> 00:55:42,890 In other cases, you're gonna see 1001 00:55:42,172 --> 00:55:44,841 "climate change is causing the destruction of nature." 1002 00:55:44,925 --> 00:55:48,428 And that's a function not of what the truth is about climate change, 1003 00:55:48,512 --> 00:55:51,980 but about where you happen to be Googling from 1004 00:55:51,181 --> 00:55:54,101 and the particular things Google knows about your interests. 1005 00:55:54,851 --> 00:55:58,210 Even two friends who are so close to each other, 1006 00:55:58,105 --> 00:56:00,190 who have almost the exact same set of friends, 1007 00:56:00,274 --> 00:56:02,818 they think, you know, "I'm going to news feeds on Facebook. 1008 00:56:02,901 --> 00:56:05,404 I'll see the exact same set of updates." 1009 00:56:05,487 --> 00:56:06,738 But it's not like that at all. 1010 00:56:06,822 --> 00:56:08,448 They see completely different worlds 1011 00:56:08,532 --> 00:56:10,576 because they're based on these computers calculating 1012 00:56:10,659 --> 00:56:12,350 what's perfect for each of them. 1013 00:56:12,119 --> 00:56:14,246 [whistling over monitor] 1014 00:56:14,329 --> 00:56:18,417 [Roger] The way to think about it is it's 2.7 billion Truman Shows. 1015 00:56:18,500 --> 00:56:21,295 Each person has their own reality, with their own... 1016 00:56:22,671 --> 00:56:23,672 facts. 1017 00:56:23,755 --> 00:56:27,900 Why do you think that, uh, Truman has never come close 1018 00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:30,950 to discovering the true nature of his world until now? 1019 00:56:31,540 --> 00:56:34,141 We accept the reality of the world with which we're presented. 1020 00:56:34,224 --> 00:56:35,142 It's as simple as that. 1021 00:56:36,476 --> 00:56:41,640 Over time, you have the false sense that everyone agrees with you, 1022 00:56:41,148 --> 00:56:44,670 because everyone in your news feed sounds just like you. 1023 00:56:44,568 --> 00:56:49,720 And that once you're in that state, it turns out you're easily manipulated, 1024 00:56:49,156 --> 00:56:51,742 the same way you would be manipulated by a magician. 1025 00:56:51,825 --> 00:56:55,370 A magician shows you a card trick and says, "Pick a card, any card." 1026 00:56:55,454 --> 00:56:58,165 What you don't realize was that they've done a set-up, 1027 00:56:58,457 --> 00:57:00,584 so you pick the card they want you to pick. 1028 00:57:00,667 --> 00:57:03,170 And that's how Facebook works. Facebook sits there and says, 1029 00:57:03,253 --> 00:57:06,173 "Hey, you pick your friends. You pick the links that you follow." 1030 00:57:06,256 --> 00:57:08,717 But that's all nonsense. It's just like the magician. 1031 00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:11,303 Facebook is in charge of your news feed. 1032 00:57:11,386 --> 00:57:14,514 We all simply are operating on a different set of facts. 1033 00:57:14,598 --> 00:57:16,475 When that happens at scale, 1034 00:57:16,558 --> 00:57:20,646 you're no longer able to reckon with or even consume information 1035 00:57:20,729 --> 00:57:23,690 that contradicts with that world view that you've created. 1036 00:57:23,774 --> 00:57:26,443 That means we aren't actually being objective, 1037 00:57:26,526 --> 00:57:28,320 constructive individuals. [chuckles] 1038 00:57:28,403 --> 00:57:32,449 [crowd chanting] Open up your eyes, don't believe the lies! Open up... 1039 00:57:32,532 --> 00:57:34,701 [Justin] And then you look over at the other side, 1040 00:57:35,243 --> 00:57:38,747 and you start to think, "How can those people be so stupid? 1041 00:57:38,830 --> 00:57:42,125 Look at all of this information that I'm constantly seeing. 1042 00:57:42,209 --> 00:57:44,628 How are they not seeing that same information?" 1043 00:57:44,711 --> 00:57:47,297 And the answer is, "They're not seeing that same information." 1044 00:57:47,381 --> 00:57:50,801 [crowd continues chanting] Open up your eyes, don't believe the lies! 1045 00:57:50,884 --> 00:57:52,100 [shouting indistinctly] 1046 00:57:52,940 --> 00:57:55,472 -[interviewer] What are Republicans like? -People that don't have a clue. 1047 00:57:55,555 --> 00:57:58,934 The Democrat Party is a crime syndicate, not a real political party. 1048 00:57:59,170 --> 00:58:03,188 A huge new Pew Research Center study of 10,000 American adults 1049 00:58:03,271 --> 00:58:05,315 finds us more divided than ever, 1050 00:58:05,399 --> 00:58:09,152 with personal and political polarization at a 20-year high. 1051 00:58:11,738 --> 00:58:14,199 [pundit] You have more than a third of Republicans saying 1052 00:58:14,282 --> 00:58:16,827 the Democratic Party is a threat to the nation, 1053 00:58:16,910 --> 00:58:20,580 more than a quarter of Democrats saying the same thing about the Republicans. 1054 00:58:20,664 --> 00:58:22,499 So many of the problems that we're discussing, 1055 00:58:22,582 --> 00:58:24,418 like, around political polarization 1056 00:58:24,501 --> 00:58:28,460 exist in spades on cable television. 1057 00:58:28,130 --> 00:58:31,700 The media has this exact same problem, 1058 00:58:31,910 --> 00:58:33,343 where their business model, by and large, 1059 00:58:33,427 --> 00:58:35,762 is that they're selling our attention to advertisers. 1060 00:58:35,846 --> 00:58:38,890 And the Internet is just a new, even more efficient way to do that. 1061 00:58:40,142 --> 00:58:44,146 [Guillaume] At YouTube, I was working on YouTube recommendations. 1062 00:58:44,229 --> 00:58:47,149 It worries me that an algorithm that I worked on 1063 00:58:47,232 --> 00:58:50,402 is actually increasing polarization in society. 1064 00:58:50,485 --> 00:58:53,113 But from the point of view of watch time, 1065 00:58:53,196 --> 00:58:57,617 this polarization is extremely efficient at keeping people online. 1066 00:58:58,785 --> 00:59:00,871 The only reason these teachers are teaching this stuff 1067 00:59:00,954 --> 00:59:02,289 is 'cause they're getting paid to. 1068 00:59:02,372 --> 00:59:04,374 -It's absolutely absurd. -[Cass] Hey, Benji. 1069 00:59:04,916 --> 00:59:06,293 No soccer practice today? 1070 00:59:06,376 --> 00:59:08,795 Oh, there is. I'm just catching up on some news stuff. 1071 00:59:08,879 --> 00:59:11,506 [vlogger] Do research. Anything that sways from the Extreme Center-- 1072 00:59:11,590 --> 00:59:14,900 Wouldn't exactly call the stuff that you're watching news. 1073 00:59:15,552 --> 00:59:18,847 You're always talking about how messed up everything is. So are they. 1074 00:59:19,306 --> 00:59:21,141 But that stuff is just propaganda. 1075 00:59:21,224 --> 00:59:24,610 [vlogger] Neither is true. It's all about what makes sense. 1076 00:59:24,770 --> 00:59:26,938 Ben, I'm serious. That stuff is bad for you. 1077 00:59:27,220 --> 00:59:29,232 -You should go to soccer practice. -[Ben] Mm. 1078 00:59:31,109 --> 00:59:31,943 [Cass sighs] 1079 00:59:35,155 --> 00:59:37,491 I share this stuff because I care. 1080 00:59:37,574 --> 00:59:41,770 I care that you are being misled, and it's not okay. All right? 1081 00:59:41,161 --> 00:59:43,121 [Guillaume] People think the algorithm is designed 1082 00:59:43,205 --> 00:59:46,833 to give them what they really want, only it's not. 1083 00:59:46,917 --> 00:59:52,589 The algorithm is actually trying to find a few rabbit holes that are very powerful, 1084 00:59:52,672 --> 00:59:56,218 trying to find which rabbit hole is the closest to your interest. 1085 00:59:56,301 --> 00:59:59,262 And then if you start watching one of those videos, 1086 00:59:59,846 --> 01:00:02,224 then it will recommend it over and over again. 1087 01:00:02,682 --> 01:00:04,935 It's not like anybody wants this to happen. 1088 01:00:05,180 --> 01:00:07,813 It's just that this is what the recommendation system is doing. 1089 01:00:07,896 --> 01:00:10,816 So much so that Kyrie Irving, the famous basketball player, 1090 01:00:11,660 --> 01:00:14,236 uh, said he believed the Earth was flat, and he apologized later 1091 01:00:14,319 --> 01:00:16,154 because he blamed it on a YouTube rabbit hole. 1092 01:00:16,488 --> 01:00:18,657 You know, like, you click the YouTube click 1093 01:00:18,740 --> 01:00:21,535 and it goes, like, how deep the rabbit hole goes. 1094 01:00:21,618 --> 01:00:23,370 When he later came on to NPR to say, 1095 01:00:23,453 --> 01:00:25,956 "I'm sorry for believing this. I didn't want to mislead people," 1096 01:00:26,390 --> 01:00:28,291 a bunch of students in a classroom were interviewed saying, 1097 01:00:28,375 --> 01:00:29,668 "The round-Earthers got to him." 1098 01:00:29,751 --> 01:00:30,961 [audience chuckles] 1099 01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:33,964 The flat-Earth conspiracy theory was recommended 1100 01:00:34,470 --> 01:00:37,634 hundreds of millions of times by the algorithm. 1101 01:00:37,717 --> 01:00:43,890 It's easy to think that it's just a few stupid people who get convinced, 1102 01:00:43,974 --> 01:00:46,893 but the algorithm is getting smarter and smarter every day. 1103 01:00:46,977 --> 01:00:50,188 So, today, they are convincing the people that the Earth is flat, 1104 01:00:50,272 --> 01:00:53,984 but tomorrow, they will be convincing you of something that's false. 1105 01:00:54,317 --> 01:00:57,821 [reporter] On November 7th, the hashtag "Pizzagate" was born. 1106 01:00:57,904 --> 01:00:59,197 [Renée] Pizzagate... 1107 01:01:00,115 --> 01:01:01,449 [clicks tongue] Oh, boy. 1108 01:01:01,533 --> 01:01:02,534 Uh... [laughs] 1109 01:01:03,159 --> 01:01:06,913 I still am not 100 percent sure how this originally came about, 1110 01:01:06,997 --> 01:01:12,377 but the idea that ordering a pizza meant ordering a trafficked person. 1111 01:01:12,460 --> 01:01:15,460 As the groups got bigger on Facebook, 1112 01:01:15,130 --> 01:01:19,968 Facebook's recommendation engine started suggesting to regular users 1113 01:01:20,510 --> 01:01:21,761 that they join Pizzagate groups. 1114 01:01:21,845 --> 01:01:27,392 So, if a user was, for example, anti-vaccine or believed in chemtrails 1115 01:01:27,475 --> 01:01:30,645 or had indicated to Facebook's algorithms in some way 1116 01:01:30,729 --> 01:01:33,398 that they were prone to belief in conspiracy theories, 1117 01:01:33,481 --> 01:01:36,860 Facebook's recommendation engine would serve them Pizzagate groups. 1118 01:01:36,943 --> 01:01:41,720 Eventually, this culminated in a man showing up with a gun, 1119 01:01:41,156 --> 01:01:44,618 deciding that he was gonna go liberate the children from the basement  1120 01:01:44,701 --> 01:01:46,912 of the pizza place that did not have a basement. 1121 01:01:46,995 --> 01:01:48,538 [officer 1] What were you doing? 1122 01:01:48,872 --> 01:01:50,498 [man] Making sure there was nothing there. 1123 01:01:50,582 --> 01:01:52,459 -[officer 1] Regarding? -[man] Pedophile ring. 1124 01:01:52,542 --> 01:01:54,294 -[officer 1] What? -[man] Pedophile ring. 1125 01:01:54,377 --> 01:01:55,962 [officer 2] He's talking about Pizzagate. 1126 01:01:56,460 --> 01:02:00,216 This is an example of a conspiracy theory 1127 01:02:00,300 --> 01:02:03,678 that was propagated across all social networks. 1128 01:02:03,762 --> 01:02:06,970 The social network's own recommendation engine 1129 01:02:06,181 --> 01:02:07,974 is voluntarily serving this up to people 1130 01:02:08,580 --> 01:02:10,644 who had never searched for the term "Pizzagate" in their life. 1131 01:02:12,437 --> 01:02:14,439 [Tristan] There's a study, an MIT study, 1132 01:02:14,522 --> 01:02:19,819 that fake news on Twitter spreads six times faster than true news. 1133 01:02:19,903 --> 01:02:21,863 What is that world gonna look like 1134 01:02:21,947 --> 01:02:24,741 when one has a six-times advantage to the other one? 1135 01:02:25,283 --> 01:02:27,661 You can imagine these things are sort of like... 1136 01:02:27,744 --> 01:02:31,706 they... they tilt the floor of... of human behavior. 1137 01:02:31,790 --> 01:02:34,709 They make some behavior harder and some easier. 1138 01:02:34,793 --> 01:02:37,420 And you're always free to walk up the hill, 1139 01:02:37,504 --> 01:02:38,797 but fewer people do, 1140 01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:43,930 and so, at scale, at society's scale, you really are just tilting the floor 1141 01:02:43,176 --> 01:02:45,971 and changing what billions of people think and do. 1142 01:02:46,540 --> 01:02:52,180 We've created a system  that biases towards false information. 1143 01:02:52,644 --> 01:02:54,437 Not because we want to, 1144 01:02:54,521 --> 01:02:58,817 but because false information makes the companies more money 1145 01:02:59,401 --> 01:03:01,319 than the truth. The truth is boring. 1146 01:03:01,987 --> 01:03:04,489 It's a disinformation-for-profit business model. 1147 01:03:04,906 --> 01:03:08,159 You make money the more you allow unregulated messages 1148 01:03:08,702 --> 01:03:11,287 to reach anyone for the best price. 1149 01:03:11,663 --> 01:03:13,957 Because climate change? Yeah. 1150 01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:16,751 It's a hoax. Yeah, it's real. That's the point. 1151 01:03:16,835 --> 01:03:20,460 The more they talk about it and the more they divide us, 1152 01:03:20,130 --> 01:03:22,424 the more they have the power, the more... 1153 01:03:22,507 --> 01:03:25,468 [Tristan] Facebook has trillions of these news feed posts. 1154 01:03:26,553 --> 01:03:29,180 They can't know what's real or what's true... 1155 01:03:29,973 --> 01:03:33,727 which is why this conversation is so critical right now. 1156 01:03:33,810 --> 01:03:37,220 [reporter 1] It's not just COVID-19 that's spreading fast. 1157 01:03:37,105 --> 01:03:40,191 There's a flow of misinformation online about the virus. 1158 01:03:40,275 --> 01:03:41,818 [reporter 2] The notion drinking water 1159 01:03:41,901 --> 01:03:43,695 will flush coronavirus from your system 1160 01:03:43,778 --> 01:03:47,490 is one of several myths about the virus circulating on social media. 1161 01:03:47,574 --> 01:03:50,452 [automated voice] The government planned this event, created the virus, 1162 01:03:50,535 --> 01:03:53,621 and had a simulation of how the countries would react. 1163 01:03:53,955 --> 01:03:55,582 Coronavirus is a... a hoax. 1164 01:03:56,166 --> 01:03:57,959 [man] SARS, coronavirus. 1165 01:03:58,376 --> 01:04:01,460 And look at when it was made. 2018. 1166 01:04:01,129 --> 01:04:03,798 I think the US government started this shit. 1167 01:04:04,215 --> 01:04:09,950 Nobody is sick. Nobody is sick. Nobody knows anybody who's sick. 1168 01:04:09,512 --> 01:04:13,160 Maybe the government is using the coronavirus as an excuse 1169 01:04:13,990 --> 01:04:15,643 to get everyone to stay inside because something else is happening. 1170 01:04:15,727 --> 01:04:18,210 Coronavirus is not killing people, 1171 01:04:18,104 --> 01:04:20,940 it's the 5G radiation that they're pumping out. 1172 01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:22,525 [crowd shouting] 1173 01:04:22,609 --> 01:04:24,944 [Tristan] We're being bombarded with rumors. 1174 01:04:25,403 --> 01:04:28,823 People are blowing up actual physical cell phone towers. 1175 01:04:28,907 --> 01:04:32,202 We see Russia and China spreading rumors and conspiracy theories. 1176 01:04:32,285 --> 01:04:35,246 [reporter 3] This morning, panic and protest in Ukraine as... 1177 01:04:35,330 --> 01:04:38,917 [Tristan] People have no idea what's true, and now it's a matter of life and death. 1178 01:04:39,876 --> 01:04:42,629 [woman] Those sources that are spreading coronavirus misinformation 1179 01:04:42,712 --> 01:04:45,799 have amassed something like 52 million engagements. 1180 01:04:45,882 --> 01:04:50,950 You're saying that silver solution would be effective. 1181 01:04:50,178 --> 01:04:54,140 Well, let's say it hasn't been tested on this strain of the coronavirus, but... 1182 01:04:54,224 --> 01:04:57,227 [Tristan] What we're seeing with COVID is just an extreme version 1183 01:04:57,310 --> 01:05:00,522 of what's happening across our information ecosystem. 1184 01:05:00,939 --> 01:05:05,260 Social media amplifies exponential gossip and exponential hearsay 1185 01:05:05,110 --> 01:05:07,112 to the point that we don't know what's true, 1186 01:05:07,195 --> 01:05:08,947 no matter what issue we care about. 1187 01:05:15,161 --> 01:05:16,579 [teacher] He discovers this. 1188 01:05:16,663 --> 01:05:18,665 [continues lecturing indistinctly] 1189 01:05:19,874 --> 01:05:21,292 [Rebecca whispers] Ben. 1190 01:05:26,131 --> 01:05:28,258 -Are you still on the team? -[Ben] Mm-hmm. 1191 01:05:30,385 --> 01:05:32,679 [Rebecca] Okay, well, I'm gonna get a snack before practice 1192 01:05:32,762 --> 01:05:34,430 if you... wanna come. 1193 01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:36,516 [Ben] Hm? 1194 01:05:36,975 --> 01:05:38,601 [Rebecca] You know, never mind. 1195 01:05:38,685 --> 01:05:40,687 [footsteps fading] 1196 01:05:45,660 --> 01:05:47,527 [vlogger] Nine out of ten people are dissatisfied right now. 1197 01:05:47,610 --> 01:05:50,613 The EC is like any political movement in history, when you think about it. 1198 01:05:50,697 --> 01:05:54,492 We are standing up, and we are... we are standing up to this noise. 1199 01:05:54,576 --> 01:05:57,360 You are my people. I trust you guys. 1200 01:05:59,247 --> 01:06:02,584 -The Extreme Center content is brilliant. -He absolutely loves it. 1201 01:06:02,667 --> 01:06:03,626 Running an auction. 1202 01:06:04,627 --> 01:06:08,548 840 bidders. He sold for 4.35 cents to a weapons manufacturer. 1203 01:06:08,631 --> 01:06:10,800 Let's promote some of these events. 1204 01:06:10,884 --> 01:06:13,511 Upcoming rallies in his geographic zone later this week. 1205 01:06:13,595 --> 01:06:15,180 I've got a new vlogger lined up, too. 1206 01:06:15,263 --> 01:06:16,264 [chuckles] 1207 01:06:17,765 --> 01:06:22,979 And... and, honestly, I'm telling you, I'm willing to do whatever it takes. 1208 01:06:23,620 --> 01:06:24,939 And I mean whatever. 1209 01:06:32,155 --> 01:06:33,198 -Subscribe... -[Cass] Ben? 1210 01:06:33,281 --> 01:06:35,909 ...and also come back because I'm telling you, yo... 1211 01:06:35,992 --> 01:06:38,870 -[knocking on door] -...I got some real big things comin'. 1212 01:06:38,953 --> 01:06:40,163 Some real big things. 1213 01:06:40,788 --> 01:06:45,293 [Roger] One of the problems with Facebook is that, as a tool of persuasion, 1214 01:06:45,793 --> 01:06:47,921 it may be the greatest thing ever created. 1215 01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:52,508 Now, imagine what that means in the hands of a dictator or an authoritarian. 1216 01:06:53,718 --> 01:06:57,639 If you want to control the population of your country, 1217 01:06:57,722 --> 01:07:01,309 there has never been a tool as effective as Facebook. 1218 01:07:04,938 --> 01:07:07,398 [Cynthia] Some of the most troubling implications 1219 01:07:07,482 --> 01:07:10,985 of governments and other bad actors weaponizing social media, 1220 01:07:11,236 --> 01:07:13,613 um, is that it has led to real, offline harm. 1221 01:07:13,696 --> 01:07:15,730 I think the most prominent example 1222 01:07:15,156 --> 01:07:17,659 that's gotten a lot of press is what's happened in Myanmar. 1223 01:07:19,244 --> 01:07:21,204 In Myanmar, when people think of the Internet, 1224 01:07:21,287 --> 01:07:22,914 what they are thinking about is Facebook. 1225 01:07:22,997 --> 01:07:25,917 And what often happens is when people buy their cell phone, 1226 01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:29,921 the cell phone shop owner will actually preload Facebook on there for them 1227 01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:31,506 and open an account for them. 1228 01:07:31,589 --> 01:07:34,884 And so when people get their phone, the first thing they open 1229 01:07:34,968 --> 01:07:37,595 and the only thing they know how to open is Facebook. 1230 01:07:38,179 --> 01:07:41,891 Well, a new bombshell investigation exposes Facebook's growing struggle 1231 01:07:41,975 --> 01:07:43,810 to tackle hate speech in Myanmar. 1232 01:07:43,893 --> 01:07:46,200 [crowd shouting] 1233 01:07:46,104 --> 01:07:49,190 Facebook really gave the military and other bad actors 1234 01:07:49,274 --> 01:07:51,776 a new way to manipulate public opinion 1235 01:07:51,859 --> 01:07:55,530 and to help incite violence against the Rohingya Muslims 1236 01:07:55,613 --> 01:07:57,407 that included mass killings, 1237 01:07:58,116 --> 01:07:59,867 burning of entire villages, 1238 01:07:59,951 --> 01:08:03,705 mass rape, and other serious crimes against humanity 1239 01:08:03,788 --> 01:08:04,956 that have now led 1240 01:08:05,390 --> 01:08:08,209 to 700,000 Rohingya Muslims having to flee the country.  1241 01:08:11,170 --> 01:08:14,799 It's not that highly motivated propagandists 1242 01:08:14,882 --> 01:08:16,551 haven't existed before. 1243 01:08:16,634 --> 01:08:19,762 It's that the platforms make it possible 1244 01:08:19,846 --> 01:08:23,725 to spread manipulative narratives with phenomenal ease, 1245 01:08:23,808 --> 01:08:25,435 and without very much money. 1246 01:08:25,518 --> 01:08:27,812 If I want to manipulate an election, 1247 01:08:27,895 --> 01:08:30,565 I can now go into a conspiracy theory group on Facebook, 1248 01:08:30,648 --> 01:08:32,233 and I can find 100 people 1249 01:08:32,317 --> 01:08:34,444 who believe that the Earth is completely flat 1250 01:08:34,861 --> 01:08:37,780 and think it's all this conspiracy theory that we landed on the moon, 1251 01:08:37,864 --> 01:08:41,451 and I can tell Facebook, "Give me 1,000 users who look like that." 1252 01:08:42,118 --> 01:08:46,800 Facebook will happily send me thousands of users that look like them 1253 01:08:46,164 --> 01:08:49,250 that I can now hit with more conspiracy theories. 1254 01:08:50,376 --> 01:08:53,870 -[button clicks] -Sold for 3.4 cents an impression. 1255 01:08:53,379 --> 01:08:56,382 -New EC video to promote. -[Advertising AI] Another ad teed up. 1256 01:08:58,509 --> 01:09:00,928 [Justin] Algorithms and manipulative politicians 1257 01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:02,138 are becoming so expert 1258 01:09:02,221 --> 01:09:04,570 at learning how to trigger us, 1259 01:09:04,140 --> 01:09:08,353 getting so good at creating fake news that we absorb as if it were reality, 1260 01:09:08,436 --> 01:09:10,813 and confusing us into believing those lies. 1261 01:09:10,897 --> 01:09:12,607 It's as though we have less and less control 1262 01:09:12,690 --> 01:09:14,150 over who we are and what we believe. 1263 01:09:14,233 --> 01:09:16,235 [ominous instrumental music playing] 1264 01:09:31,376 --> 01:09:32,835 [vlogger] ...so they can pick sides. 1265 01:09:32,919 --> 01:09:34,879 There's lies here, and there's lies over there. 1266 01:09:34,962 --> 01:09:36,339 So they can keep the power, 1267 01:09:36,422 --> 01:09:39,967 -so they can control everything. -[police siren blaring] 1268 01:09:40,510 --> 01:09:42,553 [vlogger] They can control our minds, 1269 01:09:42,637 --> 01:09:46,391 -so that they can keep their secrets. -[crowd chanting] 1270 01:09:48,518 --> 01:09:50,895 [Tristan] Imagine a world where no one believes anything true. 1271 01:09:52,897 --> 01:09:55,650 Everyone believes the government's lying to them. 1272 01:09:56,317 --> 01:09:58,444 Everything is a conspiracy theory. 1273 01:09:58,528 --> 01:10:01,197 "I shouldn't trust anyone. I hate the other side." 1274 01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:02,698 That's where all this is heading. 1275 01:10:02,782 --> 01:10:06,160 The political earthquakes in Europe continue to rumble. 1276 01:10:06,244 --> 01:10:08,413 This time, in Italy and Spain. 1277 01:10:08,496 --> 01:10:11,999 [reporter] Overall, Europe's traditional, centrist coalition lost its majority 1278 01:10:12,830 --> 01:10:15,200 while far right and far left populist parties made gains. 1279 01:10:15,860 --> 01:10:16,870 [man shouts] 1280 01:10:16,170 --> 01:10:17,505 [crowd chanting] 1281 01:10:19,757 --> 01:10:20,591 Back up. 1282 01:10:21,300 --> 01:10:22,510 -[radio beeps] -Okay, let's go. 1283 01:10:24,846 --> 01:10:26,848 [police siren wailing] 1284 01:10:28,391 --> 01:10:31,269 [reporter] These accounts were deliberately, specifically attempting 1285 01:10:31,352 --> 01:10:34,355 -to sow political discord in Hong Kong. -[crowd shouting] 1286 01:10:36,441 --> 01:10:37,400 [sighs] 1287 01:10:38,609 --> 01:10:40,361 -All right, Ben. -[car doors lock] 1288 01:10:42,864 --> 01:10:45,320 What does it look like to be a country 1289 01:10:45,116 --> 01:10:48,411 that's entire diet is Facebook and social media? 1290 01:10:48,953 --> 01:10:50,872 Democracy crumbled quickly. 1291 01:10:50,955 --> 01:10:51,831 Six months. 1292 01:10:51,914 --> 01:10:53,791 [reporter 1] After that chaos in Chicago, 1293 01:10:53,875 --> 01:10:57,860 violent clashes between protesters and supporters... 1294 01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:01,632 [reporter 2] Democracy is facing a crisis of confidence. 1295 01:11:01,716 --> 01:11:04,343 What we're seeing is a global assault on democracy. 1296 01:11:04,427 --> 01:11:05,428 [crowd shouting] 1297 01:11:05,511 --> 01:11:07,930 [Renée] Most of the countries that are targeted are countries 1298 01:11:08,140 --> 01:11:09,724 that run democratic elections. 1299 01:11:10,641 --> 01:11:12,518 [Tristan] This is happening at scale. 1300 01:11:12,602 --> 01:11:15,563 By state actors, by people with millions of dollars saying, 1301 01:11:15,646 --> 01:11:18,524 "I wanna destabilize Kenya. I wanna destabilize Cameroon. 1302 01:11:18,608 --> 01:11:20,651 Oh, Angola? That only costs this much." 1303 01:11:20,735 --> 01:11:23,362 [reporter] An extraordinary election took place Sunday in Brazil. 1304 01:11:23,446 --> 01:11:25,823 With a campaign that's been powered by social media. 1305 01:11:25,907 --> 01:11:29,702 [crowd chanting in Portuguese] 1306 01:11:31,370 --> 01:11:33,956 [Tristan] We in the tech industry have created the tools 1307 01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:37,418 to destabilize and erode the fabric of society 1308 01:11:37,502 --> 01:11:40,254 in every country, all at once, everywhere. 1309 01:11:40,338 --> 01:11:44,509 You have this in Germany, Spain, France, Brazil, Australia. 1310 01:11:44,592 --> 01:11:47,261 Some of the most "developed nations" in the world 1311 01:11:47,345 --> 01:11:49,222 are now imploding on each other, 1312 01:11:49,305 --> 01:11:50,932 and what do they have in common? 1313 01:11:51,974 --> 01:11:52,975 Knowing what you know now, 1314 01:11:53,590 --> 01:11:56,312 do you believe Facebook impacted the results of the 2016 election? 1315 01:11:56,771 --> 01:11:58,814 [Mark Zuckerberg] Oh, that's... that is hard. 1316 01:11:58,898 --> 01:12:00,691 You know, it's... the... 1317 01:12:01,275 --> 01:12:04,654 the reality is, well, there were so many different forces at play. 1318 01:12:04,737 --> 01:12:07,865 Representatives from Facebook, Twitter, and Google are back on Capitol Hill 1319 01:12:07,949 --> 01:12:09,450 for a second day of testimony 1320 01:12:09,534 --> 01:12:12,578 about Russia's interference in the 2016 election. 1321 01:12:12,662 --> 01:12:17,291 The manipulation by third parties is not a hack. 1322 01:12:18,501 --> 01:12:21,462 Right? The Russians didn't hack Facebook. 1323 01:12:21,546 --> 01:12:24,966 What they did was they used the tools that Facebook created 1324 01:12:25,490 --> 01:12:27,843 for legitimate advertisers and legitimate users, 1325 01:12:27,927 --> 01:12:30,346 and they applied it to a nefarious purpose. 1326 01:12:32,140 --> 01:12:34,392 [Tristan] It's like remote-control warfare. 1327 01:12:34,475 --> 01:12:36,602 One country can manipulate another one 1328 01:12:36,686 --> 01:12:39,230 without actually invading its physical borders.  1329 01:12:39,605 --> 01:12:42,233 [reporter 1] We're seeing violent images. It appears to be a dumpster 1330 01:12:42,316 --> 01:12:43,317 being pushed around... 1331 01:12:43,401 --> 01:12:46,280 [Tristan] But it wasn't about who you wanted to vote for. 1332 01:12:46,362 --> 01:12:50,575 It was about sowing total chaos and division in society. 1333 01:12:50,658 --> 01:12:53,350 [reporter 2] Now, this was in Huntington Beach. A march... 1334 01:12:53,119 --> 01:12:54,870 [Tristan] It's about making two sides 1335 01:12:54,954 --> 01:12:56,414 who couldn't hear each other anymore, 1336 01:12:56,497 --> 01:12:58,124 who didn't want to hear each other anymore, 1337 01:12:58,207 --> 01:12:59,876 who didn't trust each other anymore. 1338 01:12:59,959 --> 01:13:03,212 [reporter 3] This is a city where hatred was laid bare 1339 01:13:03,296 --> 01:13:05,464 and transformed into racial violence. 1340 01:13:05,548 --> 01:13:07,550 [crowd shouting] 1341 01:13:09,100 --> 01:13:11,178 [indistinct shouting] 1342 01:13:12,471 --> 01:13:14,150 [men grunting] 1343 01:13:17,852 --> 01:13:20,620 [police siren blaring] 1344 01:13:20,146 --> 01:13:20,980 [Cass] Ben! 1345 01:13:21,606 --> 01:13:22,440 Cassandra! 1346 01:13:22,982 --> 01:13:23,816 -Cass! -Ben! 1347 01:13:23,899 --> 01:13:25,484 [officer 1] Come here! Come here! 1348 01:13:27,486 --> 01:13:31,157 Arms up. Arms up. Get down on your knees. Now, down. 1349 01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:32,491 [crowd continues shouting] 1350 01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:37,204 -[officer 2] Calm-- -Ben! 1351 01:13:37,288 --> 01:13:38,664 [officer 2] Hey! Hands up! 1352 01:13:39,624 --> 01:13:41,751 Turn around. On the ground. On the ground! 1353 01:13:43,711 --> 01:13:46,464 -[crowd echoing] -[melancholy piano music playing] 1354 01:13:51,969 --> 01:13:54,388 [siren continues wailing] 1355 01:13:56,724 --> 01:14:00,190 [Tristan] Do we want this system for sale to the highest bidder? 1356 01:14:01,437 --> 01:14:05,399 For democracy to be completely for sale, where you can reach any mind you want, 1357 01:14:05,483 --> 01:14:09,700 target a lie to that specific population, and create culture wars? 1358 01:14:09,236 --> 01:14:10,237 Do we want that? 1359 01:14:14,700 --> 01:14:16,577 [Marco Rubio] We are a nation of people... 1360 01:14:16,952 --> 01:14:18,871 that no longer speak to each other. 1361 01:14:19,872 --> 01:14:23,000 We are a nation of people who have stopped being friends with people 1362 01:14:23,840 --> 01:14:25,461 because of who they voted for in the last election. 1363 01:14:25,878 --> 01:14:28,422 We are a nation of people who have isolated ourselves 1364 01:14:28,506 --> 01:14:30,966 to only watch channels that tell us that we're right. 1365 01:14:32,259 --> 01:14:36,597 My message here today is that tribalism is ruining us. 1366 01:14:37,348 --> 01:14:39,183 It is tearing our country apart. 1367 01:14:40,267 --> 01:14:42,812 It is no way for sane adults to act. 1368 01:14:43,187 --> 01:14:45,314 If everyone's entitled to their own facts, 1369 01:14:45,398 --> 01:14:49,402 there's really no need for compromise, no need for people to come together. 1370 01:14:49,485 --> 01:14:51,696 In fact, there's really no need for people to interact. 1371 01:14:52,321 --> 01:14:53,531 We need to have... 1372 01:14:53,989 --> 01:14:58,411 some shared understanding of reality. Otherwise, we aren't a country. 1373 01:14:58,953 --> 01:15:02,998 So, uh, long-term, the solution here is to build more AI tools 1374 01:15:03,820 --> 01:15:08,129 that find patterns of people using the services that no real person would do. 1375 01:15:08,212 --> 01:15:11,841 We are allowing the technologists to frame this as a problem 1376 01:15:11,924 --> 01:15:13,884 that they're equipped to solve. 1377 01:15:15,136 --> 01:15:16,470 That is... That's a lie. 1378 01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:20,725 People talk about AI as if it will know truth. 1379 01:15:21,684 --> 01:15:23,686 AI's not gonna solve these problems. 1380 01:15:24,270 --> 01:15:27,189 AI cannot solve the problem of fake news. 1381 01:15:28,649 --> 01:15:31,260 Google doesn't have the option of saying, 1382 01:15:31,110 --> 01:15:36,240 "Oh, is this conspiracy? Is this truth?" Because they don't know what truth is. 1383 01:15:36,782 --> 01:15:37,783 They don't have a... 1384 01:15:37,908 --> 01:15:40,828 They don't have a proxy for truth that's better than a click. 1385 01:15:41,871 --> 01:15:45,124 If we don't agree on what is true 1386 01:15:45,207 --> 01:15:47,585 or that there is such a thing as truth, 1387 01:15:48,294 --> 01:15:49,295 we're toast. 1388 01:15:49,754 --> 01:15:52,890 This is the problem beneath other problems 1389 01:15:52,173 --> 01:15:54,425 because if we can't agree on what's true, 1390 01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:57,803 then we can't navigate out of any of our problems. 1391 01:15:57,887 --> 01:16:00,806 -[ominous instrumental music playing] -[console droning] 1392 01:16:05,436 --> 01:16:07,730 [Growth AI] We should suggest Flat Earth Football Club. 1393 01:16:07,813 --> 01:16:10,566 [Engagement AI] Don't show him sports updates. He doesn't engage. 1394 01:16:11,484 --> 01:16:14,280 [AIs speaking indistinctly] 1395 01:16:15,696 --> 01:16:17,698 [music swells] 1396 01:16:39,887 --> 01:16:42,765 [Jaron] A lot of people in Silicon Valley subscribe to some kind of theory 1397 01:16:42,848 --> 01:16:45,142 that we're building some global super brain, 1398 01:16:45,309 --> 01:16:48,200 and all of our users are just interchangeable little neurons, 1399 01:16:48,104 --> 01:16:49,563 no one of which is important. 1400 01:16:50,231 --> 01:16:53,150 And it subjugates people into this weird role 1401 01:16:53,234 --> 01:16:56,700 where you're just, like, this little computing element 1402 01:16:56,153 --> 01:16:58,906 that we're programming through our behavior manipulation 1403 01:16:58,989 --> 01:17:02,368 for the service of this giant brain, and you don't matter. 1404 01:17:02,451 --> 01:17:04,912 You're not gonna get paid. You're not gonna get acknowledged. 1405 01:17:04,995 --> 01:17:06,455 You don't have self-determination. 1406 01:17:06,539 --> 01:17:09,416 We'll sneakily just manipulate you because you're a computing node, 1407 01:17:09,500 --> 01:17:12,336 so we need to program you 'cause that's what you do with computing nodes. 1408 01:17:14,505 --> 01:17:16,507 [reflective instrumental music playing] 1409 01:17:20,940 --> 01:17:21,846 Oh, man. [sighs] 1410 01:17:21,929 --> 01:17:25,391 [Tristan] When you think about technology and it being an existential threat, 1411 01:17:25,474 --> 01:17:28,600 you know, that's a big claim, and... 1412 01:17:29,603 --> 01:17:33,983 it's easy to then, in your mind, think, "Okay, so, there I am with the phone... 1413 01:17:35,609 --> 01:17:37,236 scrolling, clicking, using it. 1414 01:17:37,319 --> 01:17:39,196 Like, where's the existential threat? 1415 01:17:40,281 --> 01:17:41,615 Okay, there's the supercomputer. 1416 01:17:41,699 --> 01:17:43,951 The other side of the screen, pointed at my brain, 1417 01:17:44,410 --> 01:17:47,538 got me to watch one more video. Where's the existential threat?" 1418 01:17:47,621 --> 01:17:49,623 [indistinct chatter] 1419 01:17:54,253 --> 01:17:57,631 [Tristan] It's not about the technology 1420 01:17:57,715 --> 01:17:59,341 being the existential threat. 1421 01:18:03,679 --> 01:18:06,265 It's the technology's ability 1422 01:18:06,348 --> 01:18:09,476 to bring out the worst in society... [chuckles] 1423 01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:13,522 ...and the worst in society being the existential threat. 1424 01:18:18,819 --> 01:18:20,571 If technology creates... 1425 01:18:21,697 --> 01:18:23,115 mass chaos, 1426 01:18:23,198 --> 01:18:24,533 outrage, incivility, 1427 01:18:24,617 --> 01:18:26,327 lack of trust in each other, 1428 01:18:27,453 --> 01:18:30,414 loneliness, alienation, more polarization, 1429 01:18:30,706 --> 01:18:33,334 more election hacking, more populism, 1430 01:18:33,918 --> 01:18:36,962 more distraction and inability to focus on the real issues... 1431 01:18:37,963 --> 01:18:39,715 that's just society. [scoffs] 1432 01:18:40,341 --> 01:18:46,388 And now society is incapable of healing itself 1433 01:18:46,472 --> 01:18:48,515 and just devolving into a kind of chaos. 1434 01:18:51,977 --> 01:18:54,939 This affects everyone, even if you don't use these products. 1435 01:18:55,397 --> 01:18:57,524 These things have become digital Frankensteins 1436 01:18:57,608 --> 01:19:00,690 that are terraforming the world in their image, 1437 01:19:00,152 --> 01:19:01,862 whether it's the mental health of children 1438 01:19:01,946 --> 01:19:04,490 or our politics and our political discourse, 1439 01:19:04,573 --> 01:19:07,493 without taking responsibility for taking over the public square. 1440 01:19:07,576 --> 01:19:10,579 -So, again, it comes back to-- -And who do you think's responsible? 1441 01:19:10,663 --> 01:19:13,582 I think we have to have the platforms be responsible 1442 01:19:13,666 --> 01:19:15,584 for when they take over election advertising, 1443 01:19:15,668 --> 01:19:17,795 they're responsible for protecting elections. 1444 01:19:17,878 --> 01:19:20,381 When they take over mental health of kids or Saturday morning, 1445 01:19:20,464 --> 01:19:22,841 they're responsible for protecting Saturday morning. 1446 01:19:23,592 --> 01:19:27,930 The race to keep people's attention isn't going away. 1447 01:19:28,389 --> 01:19:31,850 Our technology's gonna become more integrated into our lives, not less. 1448 01:19:31,934 --> 01:19:34,895 The AIs are gonna get better at predicting what keeps us on the screen, 1449 01:19:34,979 --> 01:19:37,106 not worse at predicting what keeps us on the screen. 1450 01:19:38,941 --> 01:19:42,270 I... I am 62 years old, 1451 01:19:42,111 --> 01:19:44,822 getting older every minute, the more this conversation goes on... 1452 01:19:44,905 --> 01:19:48,330 -[crowd chuckles] -...but... but I will tell you that, um... 1453 01:19:48,701 --> 01:19:52,371 I'm probably gonna be dead and gone, and I'll probably be thankful for it, 1454 01:19:52,454 --> 01:19:54,331 when all this shit comes to fruition. 1455 01:19:54,790 --> 01:19:59,586 Because... Because I think that this scares me to death. 1456 01:20:00,754 --> 01:20:03,480 Do... Do you... Do you see it the same way? 1457 01:20:03,549 --> 01:20:06,885 Or am I overreacting to a situation that I don't know enough about? 1458 01:20:09,805 --> 01:20:11,598 [interviewer] What are you most worried about? 1459 01:20:13,851 --> 01:20:18,480 [sighs] I think, in the... in the shortest time horizon... 1460 01:20:19,523 --> 01:20:20,524 civil war. 1461 01:20:24,445 --> 01:20:29,908 If we go down the current status quo for, let's say, another 20 years... 1462 01:20:31,118 --> 01:20:34,580 we probably destroy our civilization through willful ignorance. 1463 01:20:34,663 --> 01:20:37,958 We probably fail to meet the challenge of climate change. 1464 01:20:38,420 --> 01:20:42,870 We probably degrade the world's democracies 1465 01:20:42,171 --> 01:20:46,133 so that they fall into some sort of bizarre autocratic dysfunction. 1466 01:20:46,216 --> 01:20:48,427 We probably ruin the global economy. 1467 01:20:48,761 --> 01:20:52,264 Uh, we probably, um, don't survive. 1468 01:20:52,347 --> 01:20:54,808 You know, I... I really do view it as existential. 1469 01:20:54,892 --> 01:20:56,894 [helicopter blades whirring] 1470 01:21:02,524 --> 01:21:04,985 [Tristan] Is this the last generation of people 1471 01:21:05,690 --> 01:21:08,489 that are gonna know what it was like before this illusion took place? 1472 01:21:11,750 --> 01:21:14,578 Like, how do you wake up from the matrix when you don't know you're in the matrix? 1473 01:21:14,661 --> 01:21:16,538 [ominous instrumental music playing] 1474 01:21:27,382 --> 01:21:30,636 [Tristan] A lot of what we're saying sounds like it's just this... 1475 01:21:31,512 --> 01:21:33,680 one-sided doom and gloom. 1476 01:21:33,764 --> 01:21:36,809 Like, "Oh, my God, technology's just ruining the world 1477 01:21:36,892 --> 01:21:38,600 and it's ruining kids," 1478 01:21:38,143 --> 01:21:40,620 and it's like... "No." [chuckles] 1479 01:21:40,229 --> 01:21:44,660 It's confusing because it's simultaneous utopia... 1480 01:21:44,608 --> 01:21:45,567 and dystopia. 1481 01:21:45,943 --> 01:21:50,447 Like, I could hit a button on my phone, and a car shows up in 30 seconds, 1482 01:21:50,531 --> 01:21:52,699 and I can go exactly where I need to go. 1483 01:21:52,783 --> 01:21:55,661 That is magic. That's amazing. 1484 01:21:56,161 --> 01:21:57,663 When we were making the like button, 1485 01:21:57,746 --> 01:22:01,500 our entire motivation was, "Can we spread positivity and love in the world?" 1486 01:22:01,583 --> 01:22:05,300 The idea that, fast-forward to today, and teens would be getting depressed 1487 01:22:05,870 --> 01:22:06,421 when they don't have enough likes, 1488 01:22:06,505 --> 01:22:08,632 or it could be leading to political polarization 1489 01:22:08,715 --> 01:22:09,883 was nowhere on our radar. 1490 01:22:09,967 --> 01:22:12,136 I don't think these guys set out to be evil. 1491 01:22:13,512 --> 01:22:15,764 It's just the business model that has a problem. 1492 01:22:15,848 --> 01:22:20,227 You could shut down the service and destroy whatever it is-- 1493 01:22:20,310 --> 01:22:24,523 $20 billion of shareholder value-- and get sued and... 1494 01:22:24,606 --> 01:22:27,109 But you can't, in practice, put the genie back in the bottle. 1495 01:22:27,192 --> 01:22:30,404 You can make some tweaks, but at the end of the day, 1496 01:22:30,487 --> 01:22:34,320 you've gotta grow revenue and usage, quarter over quarter. It's... 1497 01:22:34,658 --> 01:22:37,536 The bigger it gets, the harder it is for anyone to change. 1498 01:22:38,495 --> 01:22:43,458 What I see is a bunch of people who are trapped by a business model, 1499 01:22:43,542 --> 01:22:46,170 an economic incentive, and shareholder pressure 1500 01:22:46,253 --> 01:22:48,922 that makes it almost impossible to do something else. 1501 01:22:49,600 --> 01:22:50,924 I think we need to accept that it's okay 1502 01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:53,177 for companies to be focused on making money. 1503 01:22:53,260 --> 01:22:55,637 What's not okay is when there's no regulation, no rules, 1504 01:22:55,721 --> 01:22:56,889 and no competition, 1505 01:22:56,972 --> 01:23:00,851 and the companies are acting as sort of de facto governments. 1506 01:23:00,934 --> 01:23:03,353 And then they're saying, "Well, we can regulate ourselves." 1507 01:23:03,437 --> 01:23:05,981 I mean, that's just a lie. That's just ridiculous. 1508 01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:08,650 Financial incentives kind of run the world, 1509 01:23:08,734 --> 01:23:12,529 so any solution to this problem 1510 01:23:12,613 --> 01:23:15,574 has to realign the financial incentives. 1511 01:23:16,740 --> 01:23:18,785 There's no fiscal reason for these companies to change. 1512 01:23:18,869 --> 01:23:21,330 And that is why I think we need regulation. 1513 01:23:21,413 --> 01:23:24,291 The phone company has tons of sensitive data about you, 1514 01:23:24,374 --> 01:23:27,544 and we have a lot of laws that make sure they don't do the wrong things. 1515 01:23:27,628 --> 01:23:31,506 We have almost no laws around digital privacy, for example. 1516 01:23:31,590 --> 01:23:34,426 We could tax data collection and processing 1517 01:23:34,510 --> 01:23:37,554 the same way that you, for example, pay your water bill 1518 01:23:37,638 --> 01:23:39,723 by monitoring the amount of water that you use. 1519 01:23:39,806 --> 01:23:43,227 You tax these companies on the data assets that they have. 1520 01:23:43,310 --> 01:23:44,770 It gives them a fiscal reason 1521 01:23:44,853 --> 01:23:47,856 to not acquire every piece of data on the planet. 1522 01:23:47,940 --> 01:23:50,567 The law runs way behind on these things, 1523 01:23:50,651 --> 01:23:55,864 but what I know is the current situation exists not for the protection of users, 1524 01:23:55,948 --> 01:23:58,700 but for the protection of the rights and privileges 1525 01:23:58,784 --> 01:24:01,453 of these gigantic, incredibly wealthy companies. 1526 01:24:02,246 --> 01:24:05,832 Are we always gonna defer to the richest, most powerful people? 1527 01:24:05,916 --> 01:24:07,417 Or are we ever gonna say, 1528 01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:12,470 "You know, there are times when there is a national interest. 1529 01:24:12,130 --> 01:24:15,592 There are times when the interests of people, of users, 1530 01:24:15,676 --> 01:24:17,386 is actually more important 1531 01:24:18,110 --> 01:24:21,473 than the profits of somebody who's already a billionaire"? 1532 01:24:21,556 --> 01:24:26,603 These markets undermine democracy, and they undermine freedom, 1533 01:24:26,687 --> 01:24:28,522 and they should be outlawed. 1534 01:24:29,147 --> 01:24:31,817 This is not a radical proposal. 1535 01:24:31,900 --> 01:24:34,194 There are other markets that we outlaw. 1536 01:24:34,278 --> 01:24:36,989 We outlaw markets in human organs. 1537 01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:39,491 We outlaw markets in human slaves.  1538 01:24:39,950 --> 01:24:44,370 Because they have inevitable destructive consequences. 1539 01:24:44,538 --> 01:24:45,831 We live in a world 1540 01:24:45,914 --> 01:24:50,200 in which a tree is worth more, financially, dead than alive, 1541 01:24:50,850 --> 01:24:53,839 in a world in which a whale is worth more dead than alive. 1542 01:24:53,922 --> 01:24:56,341 For so long as our economy works in that way 1543 01:24:56,425 --> 01:24:58,135 and corporations go unregulated, 1544 01:24:58,218 --> 01:25:00,679 they're going to continue to destroy trees, 1545 01:25:00,762 --> 01:25:01,763 to kill whales, 1546 01:25:01,847 --> 01:25:06,101 to mine the earth, and to continue to pull oil out of the ground, 1547 01:25:06,184 --> 01:25:08,395 even though we know it is destroying the planet 1548 01:25:08,478 --> 01:25:12,149 and we know that it's going to leave a worse world for future generations. 1549 01:25:12,232 --> 01:25:13,859 This is short-term thinking 1550 01:25:13,942 --> 01:25:16,695 based on this religion of profit at all costs, 1551 01:25:16,778 --> 01:25:20,157 as if somehow, magically, each corporation acting in its selfish interest 1552 01:25:20,240 --> 01:25:21,950 is going to produce the best result. 1553 01:25:22,340 --> 01:25:24,494 This has been affecting the environment for a long time. 1554 01:25:24,578 --> 01:25:27,289 What's frightening, and what hopefully is the last straw 1555 01:25:27,372 --> 01:25:29,207 that will make us wake up as a civilization 1556 01:25:29,291 --> 01:25:31,710 to how flawed this theory has been in the first place 1557 01:25:31,793 --> 01:25:35,500 is to see that now we're the tree, we're the whale. 1558 01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:37,490 Our attention can be mined. 1559 01:25:37,132 --> 01:25:39,134 We are more profitable to a corporation 1560 01:25:39,217 --> 01:25:41,595 if we're spending time staring at a screen, 1561 01:25:41,678 --> 01:25:42,971 staring at an ad, 1562 01:25:43,550 --> 01:25:45,891 than if we're spending that time living our life in a rich way. 1563 01:25:45,974 --> 01:25:47,559 And so, we're seeing the results of that. 1564 01:25:47,642 --> 01:25:50,687 We're seeing corporations using powerful artificial intelligence 1565 01:25:50,771 --> 01:25:53,648 to outsmart us and figure out how to pull our attention 1566 01:25:53,732 --> 01:25:55,359 toward the things they want us to look at, 1567 01:25:55,442 --> 01:25:57,277 rather than the things that are most consistent 1568 01:25:57,361 --> 01:25:59,237 with our goals and our values and our lives. 1569 01:25:59,321 --> 01:26:01,323 [static crackles] 1570 01:26:02,991 --> 01:26:04,451 [crowd cheering] 1571 01:26:05,535 --> 01:26:06,912 [Steve Jobs] What a computer is, 1572 01:26:06,995 --> 01:26:10,290 is it's the most remarkable tool that we've ever come up with. 1573 01:26:11,124 --> 01:26:13,877 And it's the equivalent of a bicycle for our minds. 1574 01:26:15,629 --> 01:26:20,920 The idea of humane technology, that's where Silicon Valley got its start. 1575 01:26:21,510 --> 01:26:25,722 And we've lost sight of it because it became the cool thing to do, 1576 01:26:25,806 --> 01:26:27,265 as opposed to the right thing to do. 1577 01:26:27,349 --> 01:26:29,726 The Internet was, like, a weird, wacky place. 1578 01:26:29,810 --> 01:26:31,395 It was experimental. 1579 01:26:31,478 --> 01:26:34,731 Creative things happened on the Internet, and certainly, they do still, 1580 01:26:34,815 --> 01:26:38,610 but, like, it just feels like this, like, giant mall. [chuckles] 1581 01:26:38,693 --> 01:26:42,720 You know, it's just like, "God, there's gotta be... 1582 01:26:42,155 --> 01:26:44,157 there's gotta be more to it than that." 1583 01:26:44,991 --> 01:26:45,992 [man typing] 1584 01:26:46,660 --> 01:26:48,412 [Bailey] I guess I'm just an optimist. 1585 01:26:48,495 --> 01:26:52,400 'Cause I think we can change what social media looks like and means. 1586 01:26:54,840 --> 01:26:56,711 [Justin] The way the technology works is not a law of physics. 1587 01:26:56,795 --> 01:26:57,921 It is not set in stone. 1588 01:26:58,400 --> 01:27:02,175 These are choices that human beings like myself have been making. 1589 01:27:02,759 --> 01:27:05,345 And human beings can change those technologies. 1590 01:27:06,972 --> 01:27:09,975 [Tristan] And the question now is whether or not we're willing to admit 1591 01:27:10,475 --> 01:27:15,439 that those bad outcomes are coming directly as a product of our work. 1592 01:27:21,270 --> 01:27:24,865 It's that we built these things, and we have a responsibility to change it. 1593 01:27:28,410 --> 01:27:30,412 [static crackling] 1594 01:27:37,850 --> 01:27:38,712 [Tristan] The attention extraction model 1595 01:27:38,795 --> 01:27:42,299 is not how we want to treat human beings. 1596 01:27:45,343 --> 01:27:48,138 [distorted] Is it just me or... 1597 01:27:49,723 --> 01:27:51,990 [distorted] Poor sucker. 1598 01:27:51,516 --> 01:27:53,226 [Tristan] The fabric of a healthy society 1599 01:27:53,310 --> 01:27:56,146 depends on us getting off this corrosive business model. 1600 01:27:56,938 --> 01:27:58,640 [console beeps] 1601 01:27:58,148 --> 01:28:00,150 [gentle instrumental music playing] 1602 01:28:01,526 --> 01:28:04,613 [console whirs, grows quiet] 1603 01:28:04,696 --> 01:28:08,158 [Tristan] We can demand that these products be designed humanely. 1604 01:28:09,409 --> 01:28:13,121 We can demand to not be treated as an extractable resource. 1605 01:28:15,165 --> 01:28:18,335 The intention could be: "How do we make the world better?" 1606 01:28:20,337 --> 01:28:21,505 [Jaron] Throughout history, 1607 01:28:21,588 --> 01:28:23,798 every single time something's gotten better, 1608 01:28:23,882 --> 01:28:26,343 it's because somebody has come along to say, 1609 01:28:26,426 --> 01:28:28,428 "This is stupid. We can do better." [laughs] 1610 01:28:29,179 --> 01:28:32,557 Like, it's the critics that drive improvement. 1611 01:28:33,141 --> 01:28:35,393 It's the critics who are the true optimists. 1612 01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:39,147 [sighs] Hello. 1613 01:28:42,984 --> 01:28:44,277 [sighs] Um... 1614 01:28:46,196 --> 01:28:47,697 I mean, it seems kind of crazy, right? 1615 01:28:47,781 --> 01:28:51,535 It's like the fundamental way that this stuff is designed... 1616 01:28:52,994 --> 01:28:55,163 isn't going in a good direction. [chuckles] 1617 01:28:55,247 --> 01:28:56,873 Like, the entire thing. 1618 01:28:56,957 --> 01:29:00,627 So, it sounds crazy to say we need to change all that, 1619 01:29:01,169 --> 01:29:02,671 but that's what we need to do. 1620 01:29:04,297 --> 01:29:05,924 [interviewer] Think we're gonna get there? 1621 01:29:07,384 --> 01:29:08,301 We have to. 1622 01:29:14,516 --> 01:29:16,476 [tense instrumental music playing] 1623 01:29:20,647 --> 01:29:24,943 [interviewer] Um, it seems like you're very optimistic. 1624 01:29:26,194 --> 01:29:27,571 -Is that how I sound? -[crew laughs] 1625 01:29:27,654 --> 01:29:28,905 [interviewer] Yeah, I mean... 1626 01:29:28,989 --> 01:29:31,449 I can't believe you keep saying that, because I'm like, "Really? 1627 01:29:31,533 --> 01:29:33,410 I feel like we're headed toward dystopia. 1628 01:29:33,493 --> 01:29:35,328 I feel like we're on the fast track to dystopia, 1629 01:29:35,412 --> 01:29:37,831 and it's gonna take a miracle to get us out of it." 1630 01:29:37,914 --> 01:29:40,292 And that miracle is, of course, collective will. 1631 01:29:41,100 --> 01:29:44,588 I am optimistic that we're going to figure it out, 1632 01:29:44,671 --> 01:29:47,480 but I think it's gonna take a long time. 1633 01:29:47,132 --> 01:29:50,385 Because not everybody recognizes that this is a problem. 1634 01:29:50,468 --> 01:29:55,890 I think one of the big failures in technology today 1635 01:29:55,974 --> 01:29:58,643 is a real failure of leadership, 1636 01:29:58,727 --> 01:30:01,980 of, like, people coming out and having these open conversations 1637 01:30:02,630 --> 01:30:05,900 about things that... not just what went well, but what isn't perfect 1638 01:30:05,984 --> 01:30:08,194 so that someone can come in and build something new. 1639 01:30:08,278 --> 01:30:10,322 At the end of the day, you know, 1640 01:30:10,405 --> 01:30:14,618 this machine isn't gonna turn around until there's massive public pressure. 1641 01:30:14,701 --> 01:30:18,330 By having these conversations and... and voicing your opinion, 1642 01:30:18,413 --> 01:30:21,820 in some cases through these very technologies, 1643 01:30:21,166 --> 01:30:24,252 we can start to change the tide. We can start to change the conversation. 1644 01:30:24,336 --> 01:30:27,500 It might sound strange, but it's my world. It's my community. 1645 01:30:27,880 --> 01:30:29,633 I don't hate them. I don't wanna do any harm to Google or Facebook. 1646 01:30:29,716 --> 01:30:32,886 I just want to reform them so they don't destroy the world. You know? 1647 01:30:32,969 --> 01:30:35,513 I've uninstalled a ton of apps from my phone 1648 01:30:35,597 --> 01:30:37,724 that I felt were just wasting my time. 1649 01:30:37,807 --> 01:30:40,685 All the social media apps, all the news apps, 1650 01:30:40,769 --> 01:30:42,520 and I've turned off notifications 1651 01:30:42,604 --> 01:30:45,815 on anything that was vibrating my leg with information 1652 01:30:45,899 --> 01:30:48,943 that wasn't timely and important to me right now. 1653 01:30:49,270 --> 01:30:51,279 It's for the same reason I don't keep cookies in my pocket. 1654 01:30:51,363 --> 01:30:53,198 Reduce the number of notifications you get. 1655 01:30:53,281 --> 01:30:54,449 Turn off notifications. 1656 01:30:54,532 --> 01:30:55,950 Turning off all notifications. 1657 01:30:56,340 --> 01:30:58,536 I'm not using Google anymore, I'm using Qwant, 1658 01:30:58,620 --> 01:31:01,498 which doesn't store your search history. 1659 01:31:01,581 --> 01:31:04,459 Never accept a video recommended to you on YouTube. 1660 01:31:04,542 --> 01:31:07,300 Always choose. That's another way to fight. 1661 01:31:07,870 --> 01:31:12,133 There are tons of Chrome extensions that remove recommendations. 1662 01:31:12,217 --> 01:31:15,178 [interviewer] You're recommending something to undo what you made. 1663 01:31:15,261 --> 01:31:16,554 [laughing] Yep. 1664 01:31:16,930 --> 01:31:21,643 Before you share, fact-check, consider the source, do that extra Google. 1665 01:31:21,726 --> 01:31:25,105 If it seems like it's something designed to really push your emotional buttons, 1666 01:31:25,188 --> 01:31:26,314 like, it probably is. 1667 01:31:26,398 --> 01:31:29,250 Essentially, you vote with your clicks. 1668 01:31:29,109 --> 01:31:30,360 If you click on clickbait, 1669 01:31:30,443 --> 01:31:33,780 you're creating a financial incentive that perpetuates this existing system. 1670 01:31:33,863 --> 01:31:36,950 Make sure that you get lots of different kinds of information 1671 01:31:37,330 --> 01:31:37,909 in your own life. 1672 01:31:37,992 --> 01:31:40,995 I follow people on Twitter that I disagree with 1673 01:31:41,790 --> 01:31:44,207 because I want to be exposed to different points of view. 1674 01:31:44,666 --> 01:31:46,584 Notice that many people in the tech industry 1675 01:31:46,668 --> 01:31:49,450 don't give these devices to their own children. 1676 01:31:49,129 --> 01:31:51,470 My kids don't use social media at all. 1677 01:31:51,840 --> 01:31:53,550 [interviewer] Is that a rule, or is that a... 1678 01:31:53,633 --> 01:31:54,509 That's a rule. 1679 01:31:55,930 --> 01:31:57,846 We are zealots about it. 1680 01:31:57,929 --> 01:31:59,222 We're... We're crazy. 1681 01:31:59,305 --> 01:32:05,603 And we don't let our kids have really any screen time. 1682 01:32:05,687 --> 01:32:08,565 I've worked out  what I think are three simple rules, um, 1683 01:32:08,648 --> 01:32:12,610 that make life a lot easier for families and that are justified by the research. 1684 01:32:12,694 --> 01:32:15,572 So, the first rule is all devices out of the bedroom 1685 01:32:15,655 --> 01:32:17,282 at a fixed time every night. 1686 01:32:17,365 --> 01:32:20,535 Whatever the time is, half an hour before bedtime, all devices out. 1687 01:32:20,618 --> 01:32:24,380 The second rule is no social media until high school. 1688 01:32:24,122 --> 01:32:26,374 Personally, I think the age should be 16. 1689 01:32:26,458 --> 01:32:28,960 Middle school's hard enough. Keep it out until high school. 1690 01:32:29,430 --> 01:32:32,964 And the third rule is work out a time budget with your kid. 1691 01:32:33,470 --> 01:32:34,758 And if you talk with them and say, 1692 01:32:34,841 --> 01:32:37,927 "Well, how many hours a day do you wanna spend on your device? 1693 01:32:38,110 --> 01:32:39,637 What do you think is a good amount?" 1694 01:32:39,721 --> 01:32:41,598 they'll often say something pretty reasonable. 1695 01:32:42,560 --> 01:32:44,642 Well, look, I know perfectly well 1696 01:32:44,726 --> 01:32:48,563 that I'm not gonna get everybody to delete their social media accounts, 1697 01:32:48,646 --> 01:32:50,440 but I think I can get a few. 1698 01:32:50,523 --> 01:32:54,402 And just getting a few people to delete their accounts matters a lot, 1699 01:32:54,486 --> 01:32:58,406 and the reason why is that that creates the space for a conversation 1700 01:32:58,490 --> 01:33:00,909 because I want there to be enough people out in the society 1701 01:33:00,992 --> 01:33:05,205 who are free of the manipulation engines to have a societal conversation 1702 01:33:05,288 --> 01:33:07,540 that isn't bounded by the manipulation engines. 1703 01:33:07,624 --> 01:33:10,126 So, do it! Get out of the system. 1704 01:33:10,210 --> 01:33:12,504 Yeah, delete. Get off the stupid stuff. 1705 01:33:13,546 --> 01:33:16,508 The world's beautiful. Look. Look, it's great out there. 1706 01:33:17,258 --> 01:33:18,384 [laughs] 1707 01:33:21,971 --> 01:33:24,432 -[birds singing] -[children playing and shouting]