1 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,330 [TEST TONE AND NOISE FROM MICROPHONE] 2 00:00:13,390 --> 00:00:16,160 [CHATTERING] 3 00:00:20,300 --> 00:00:23,240 Is this chart at a reasonable height for you? 4 00:00:23,300 --> 00:00:25,170 Or do you want it lowered? 5 00:00:25,240 --> 00:00:26,770 MAN: A little bit more in the middle. 6 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:28,540 MAN 2: Fine. All right. 7 00:00:29,540 --> 00:00:30,880 Earlier tonight-- 8 00:00:30,940 --> 00:00:34,050 Let me first ask the TV. Are you ready? 9 00:00:34,110 --> 00:00:35,580 All set? 10 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,390 [**] 11 00:01:12,690 --> 00:01:15,850 [INDISTINCT RADIO CHATTER] 12 00:01:27,130 --> 00:01:29,740 [RADIO CHATTER CONTINUES] 13 00:02:45,540 --> 00:02:48,210 MCNAMARA: Let me hear your voice level, to make sure it's the same. 14 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:49,680 MORRIS: Okay, how's my voice level? 15 00:02:49,750 --> 00:02:51,750 MCNAMARA: That's fine. MORRIS: Terrific. 16 00:02:51,820 --> 00:02:54,920 Now, I remember exactly the sentence I left off on. 17 00:02:54,990 --> 00:02:56,620 I remember how it started, 18 00:02:56,690 --> 00:02:58,720 and I was cut off in the middle. 19 00:02:58,790 --> 00:03:00,160 But, you can fix it up someway. 20 00:03:00,230 --> 00:03:02,430 I don't want to go back-- introduce the sentence, 21 00:03:02,490 --> 00:03:04,330 because I know exactly what I wanted to say. 22 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:05,860 MORRIS: Go ahead! Okay. 23 00:03:05,930 --> 00:03:10,700 Any military commander who is honest with himself, 24 00:03:10,770 --> 00:03:13,270 or with those he's speaking to will admit 25 00:03:13,340 --> 00:03:14,510 that he has made mistakes 26 00:03:14,570 --> 00:03:17,440 in the application of military power. 27 00:03:17,510 --> 00:03:21,180 He's killed people, unnecessarily. 28 00:03:21,250 --> 00:03:23,450 His own troops or other troops. 29 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,550 Through mistakes, through errors of judgment. 30 00:03:26,620 --> 00:03:29,390 A hundred, or thousands, or tens of thousands, 31 00:03:29,450 --> 00:03:30,790 maybe even 100,000. 32 00:03:30,860 --> 00:03:33,960 But he hasn't destroyed nations. 33 00:03:34,030 --> 00:03:35,130 And the conventional wisdom is 34 00:03:35,190 --> 00:03:36,760 don't make the same mistake twice. 35 00:03:36,830 --> 00:03:38,460 Learn from your mistakes. 36 00:03:38,530 --> 00:03:39,870 And we all do. 37 00:03:39,930 --> 00:03:41,730 Maybe we make the same mistake three times, 38 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:43,600 but hopefully not four or five. 39 00:03:43,670 --> 00:03:47,010 There'll be no learning period with nuclear weapons. 40 00:03:47,070 --> 00:03:49,880 Make one mistake and you're gonna destroy nations. 41 00:03:58,020 --> 00:04:02,390 MCNAMARA: In my life, I've been part of wars. 42 00:04:05,660 --> 00:04:10,400 Three years in the U.S. Army during World War II. 43 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,700 Seven years as secretary of defense 44 00:04:14,770 --> 00:04:16,870 during the Vietnam War. 45 00:04:19,940 --> 00:04:23,880 Thirteen years at the World Bank. Across the world. 46 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:27,880 At my age, 85, 47 00:04:27,950 --> 00:04:30,820 I'm at an age where I can look back 48 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:35,490 and derive some conclusions about my actions. 49 00:04:39,490 --> 00:04:44,160 My rule has been, "try to learn." 50 00:04:44,230 --> 00:04:47,000 Try to understand what happened. 51 00:04:48,670 --> 00:04:52,040 Develop the lessons and pass them on. 52 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:09,960 HARRY REASONER: This is the Secretary of Defense 53 00:05:10,020 --> 00:05:11,960 of the United States, Robert McNamara. 54 00:05:12,020 --> 00:05:14,230 His department absorbs 10 percent 55 00:05:14,290 --> 00:05:15,730 of the national income of this country 56 00:05:15,790 --> 00:05:17,830 and over half of every tax dollar. 57 00:05:17,900 --> 00:05:20,870 His job has been called the toughest in Washington, 58 00:05:20,930 --> 00:05:23,370 and McNamara is the most controversial figure 59 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,270 that has ever held the job. 60 00:05:25,340 --> 00:05:26,810 Walter Lippmann calls him 61 00:05:26,870 --> 00:05:28,610 not only the best secretary of defense, 62 00:05:28,670 --> 00:05:31,340 but the first one who ever asserted civilian control 63 00:05:31,410 --> 00:05:32,410 over the military. 64 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,180 His critics call him a "con man," 65 00:05:35,250 --> 00:05:36,750 "an IBM machine with legs" 66 00:05:36,820 --> 00:05:38,950 "an arrogant dictator." 67 00:06:19,090 --> 00:06:22,230 INTERVIEWER: Mr. Secretary, I've noticed in several cabinet offices... 68 00:06:22,290 --> 00:06:25,630 that little silver calendar thing there. 69 00:06:25,700 --> 00:06:28,030 Can you explain that? 70 00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:32,270 MCNAMARA: Yes, this was given by President Kennedy. 71 00:06:32,340 --> 00:06:35,770 On the calendar are engraved the dates: October 16, 72 00:06:35,840 --> 00:06:39,680 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 73 00:06:39,740 --> 00:06:45,680 24, 25, 26, 27, and finally 28, were the dates when we 74 00:06:45,750 --> 00:06:47,650 literally looked down the gun barrel 75 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:49,150 into nuclear war. 76 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,040 [GEARS CLICK] 77 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,370 MCNAMARA: Under our cloak of deceit 78 00:07:36,430 --> 00:07:41,940 the Soviet Union introduced nuclear missiles... 79 00:07:42,010 --> 00:07:44,380 into Cuba, 80 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,180 targeting 90 million Americans. 81 00:07:58,090 --> 00:08:03,230 The CIA said the warheads had not been delivered yet. 82 00:08:03,300 --> 00:08:08,630 They thought 20 were coming on a ship named the Poltava. 83 00:08:13,270 --> 00:08:17,080 We mobilized 180,000 troops. 84 00:08:17,140 --> 00:08:20,750 The first day's air attack was planned at 1080 sorties... 85 00:08:20,810 --> 00:08:23,920 a huge air attack. 86 00:09:21,070 --> 00:09:23,740 MCNAMARA: Kennedy was trying to keep us out of war. 87 00:09:23,810 --> 00:09:26,780 I was trying to help him keep us out of war. 88 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,550 And General Curtis LeMay, whom I served under, 89 00:09:29,610 --> 00:09:32,990 as a matter of fact, in World War II, was saying: 90 00:09:33,050 --> 00:09:37,990 "Let's go in. Let's totally destroy Cuba." 91 00:09:58,580 --> 00:10:01,610 On that critical Saturday, October 27th, 92 00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:06,680 we had two Khrushchev messages in front of us. 93 00:10:06,750 --> 00:10:10,920 One had come in Friday night, and it had been dictated 94 00:10:10,990 --> 00:10:16,090 by a man who was either drunk, or under tremendous stress. 95 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,400 Basically, he said, "If you'll guarantee you won't invade Cuba 96 00:10:19,460 --> 00:10:21,270 we'll take the missiles out." 97 00:10:21,330 --> 00:10:24,700 Then, before we could respond, we had a second message 98 00:10:24,770 --> 00:10:28,370 that had been dictated by a bunch of hard-liners. 99 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:33,250 And it said, in effect, "If you attack... 100 00:10:33,310 --> 00:10:36,710 we're prepared... 101 00:10:36,780 --> 00:10:39,650 to confront you with masses of military power." 102 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:41,120 So, what to do? We had the-- 103 00:10:41,190 --> 00:10:43,320 I'll call it the soft message and the hard message. 104 00:10:45,390 --> 00:10:50,030 At the elbow of President Kennedy was Tommy Thompson, 105 00:10:50,100 --> 00:10:53,330 former U.S. ambassador to Moscow. 106 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,030 He and Jane, his wife, had literally lived with Khrushchev 107 00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:57,540 and his wife upon occasion. 108 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,410 Tommy Thompson said, "Mr. President 109 00:11:00,470 --> 00:11:04,780 I urge you to respond to the soft message." 110 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:06,580 The president said to Tommy, 111 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,910 "We can't do that. That'll get us nowhere." 112 00:11:09,980 --> 00:11:12,320 Tommy said, "Mr. President, you're wrong." 113 00:11:12,380 --> 00:11:14,490 Now, that takes a lot of guts. 114 00:11:41,010 --> 00:11:45,650 In Thompson's mind was this thought: 115 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,390 "Khrushchev's gotten himself in a hell of a fix." 116 00:11:48,450 --> 00:11:49,650 He would then think to himself, 117 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,020 "My God, if I can get out of this 118 00:11:52,090 --> 00:11:55,930 with a deal that I can say to the Russian people: 119 00:11:55,990 --> 00:12:00,970 'Kennedy was going to destroy Castro and I prevented it.'" 120 00:12:01,030 --> 00:12:03,840 Thompson, knowing Khrushchev as he did, thought: 121 00:12:03,900 --> 00:12:05,740 "Khrushchev will accept that." 122 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,270 And Thompson was right. 123 00:12:08,340 --> 00:12:10,780 That's what I call empathy. 124 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,150 We must try to put ourselves inside their skin 125 00:12:14,210 --> 00:12:16,750 and look at us through their eyes, 126 00:12:16,810 --> 00:12:19,250 just to understand the thoughts 127 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:23,760 that lie behind their decisions and their actions. 128 00:12:23,820 --> 00:12:27,330 [SPEAKS RUSSIAN] 129 00:12:29,530 --> 00:12:31,700 Khrushchev's advisors were saying: 130 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,200 "There can be no deal 131 00:12:33,270 --> 00:12:36,270 "unless you somewhat reduce the pressure on us 132 00:12:36,330 --> 00:12:38,970 when you ask us to reduce the pressure on you." 133 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,240 MORRIS: Also, we had attempted to invade Cuba. 134 00:12:43,310 --> 00:12:45,180 Well, with the Bay of Pigs. 135 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,010 That undoubtedly influenced their thinking. 136 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:48,650 I think that's correct. 137 00:12:48,710 --> 00:12:50,550 But more importantly, 138 00:12:50,620 --> 00:12:52,450 from a Cuban and a Russian point of view, 139 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,320 they knew what, in a sense, I really didn't know. 140 00:12:55,390 --> 00:12:57,520 We had attempted to assassinate Castro 141 00:12:57,590 --> 00:12:59,720 under Eisenhower and under Kennedy, 142 00:12:59,790 --> 00:13:00,790 and later, under Johnson. 143 00:13:00,860 --> 00:13:02,660 And in addition to that, 144 00:13:02,730 --> 00:13:05,260 major voices in the U.S. were calling for invasion. 145 00:13:11,540 --> 00:13:15,310 In the first message, Khrushchev said this: 146 00:13:18,410 --> 00:13:22,010 "We and you ought not pull on the ends of a rope, 147 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,380 "which you have tied the knots of war. 148 00:13:28,650 --> 00:13:31,590 "Because the more the two of us pull, 149 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,960 "the tighter the knot will be tied. 150 00:13:39,430 --> 00:13:43,370 "And then it will be necessary to cut that knot, 151 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:49,540 "and what that would mean is not for me to explain to you. 152 00:13:49,610 --> 00:13:54,410 "I have participated in two wars and know that war ends, 153 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,750 "when it has rolled through cities and villages 154 00:13:57,820 --> 00:14:01,390 "everywhere sowing death and destruction. 155 00:14:03,020 --> 00:14:05,760 "For such is the logic of war. 156 00:14:07,860 --> 00:14:10,630 "If people do not display wisdom, 157 00:14:10,700 --> 00:14:14,230 "they will clash like blind moles 158 00:14:14,300 --> 00:14:18,700 and then mutual annihilation will commence." 159 00:14:48,930 --> 00:14:51,970 I want to say, and this is very important: 160 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,770 At the end, we lucked out. 161 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,840 It was luck that prevented nuclear war. 162 00:14:57,910 --> 00:15:01,410 We came that close to nuclear war at the end. 163 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,980 Rational individuals. Kennedy was rational. 164 00:15:05,050 --> 00:15:08,520 Khrushchev was rational. Castro was rational. 165 00:15:08,590 --> 00:15:10,990 Rational individuals came that close 166 00:15:11,060 --> 00:15:13,220 to total destruction of their societies. 167 00:15:13,290 --> 00:15:16,190 And that danger exists today. 168 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:39,180 The major lesson of the Cuban Missile Crisis is this: 169 00:15:39,250 --> 00:15:43,090 The indefinite combination of human fallibility 170 00:15:43,150 --> 00:15:46,960 and nuclear weapons will destroy nations. 171 00:15:51,860 --> 00:15:55,430 Is it right and proper that today 172 00:15:55,500 --> 00:16:00,070 there are 7500 strategic offensive nuclear warheads 173 00:16:00,140 --> 00:16:03,480 of which 2500 are on 15-minute alert, 174 00:16:03,540 --> 00:16:08,650 to be launched by the decision of one human being? 175 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:30,370 It wasn't until January, 1992, 176 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,140 in a meeting chaired by Castro in Havana, Cuba, 177 00:16:34,210 --> 00:16:38,980 that I learned 162 nuclear warheads, 178 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,810 including 90 tactical warheads, were on the island at the time 179 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,150 in this critical moment of the crisis. 180 00:16:45,820 --> 00:16:47,750 Uh... 181 00:16:49,850 --> 00:16:52,260 I couldn't believe what I was hearing 182 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,130 and Castro got very angry with me, because I said: 183 00:16:55,190 --> 00:16:57,190 "Mr. President, let's stop this meeting. 184 00:16:57,260 --> 00:16:58,630 "This is totally new to me. 185 00:16:58,700 --> 00:17:00,970 I'm not sure I got the translation right." 186 00:17:01,030 --> 00:17:03,070 "Mr. President, I have three questions to you. 187 00:17:03,130 --> 00:17:06,170 "Number one, did you know the nuclear warheads were there? 188 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:07,740 "Number two, if you did, 189 00:17:07,810 --> 00:17:10,210 "would you have recommended to Khrushchev 190 00:17:10,270 --> 00:17:12,880 "in the face of a U.S. attack, that he use them? 191 00:17:12,940 --> 00:17:14,850 "Number three, if he had used them, 192 00:17:14,910 --> 00:17:16,350 what would've happened to Cuba?" 193 00:17:16,410 --> 00:17:18,050 He said, "Number one, I knew they were there. 194 00:17:18,120 --> 00:17:20,650 "Number two, I would not have recommended to Khrushchev. 195 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:22,950 "I did recommend to Khrushchev that they be used. 196 00:17:23,020 --> 00:17:24,590 "Number three, what would have happened to Cuba? 197 00:17:24,660 --> 00:17:27,020 It would've been totally destroyed." 198 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,700 That's how close we were. 199 00:17:34,770 --> 00:17:36,630 MORRIS: And he was willing to accept that? 200 00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:38,470 Yes-- Oh, and he went on to say: 201 00:17:38,540 --> 00:17:41,870 "Mr. McNamara, if you and President Kennedy 202 00:17:41,940 --> 00:17:44,040 "had been in a similar situation, 203 00:17:44,110 --> 00:17:45,440 that's what you would've done." 204 00:17:45,510 --> 00:17:47,650 I said, "Mr. President, I hope to God 205 00:17:47,710 --> 00:17:49,080 we would not have done it." 206 00:17:49,150 --> 00:17:52,450 Pull the temple down on our heads? My God! 207 00:17:56,350 --> 00:17:57,890 In a sense, we'd won. 208 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,730 We got the missiles out without war. 209 00:18:04,130 --> 00:18:06,760 My deputy and I brought the five chiefs over 210 00:18:06,830 --> 00:18:09,230 and we sat down with Kennedy. 211 00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:10,570 And he said, "Gentlemen, we won. 212 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,240 "I don't want you ever to say it, 213 00:18:12,300 --> 00:18:14,110 but you know we won, I know we won." 214 00:18:14,170 --> 00:18:17,440 And LeMay said, "Won? Hell, we lost! 215 00:18:17,510 --> 00:18:20,880 We should go in and wipe them out today." 216 00:18:20,950 --> 00:18:22,550 [LAUGHS] 217 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:26,680 LeMay believed that ultimately 218 00:18:26,750 --> 00:18:28,150 we're going to confront these people 219 00:18:28,220 --> 00:18:29,520 in a conflict with nuclear weapons. 220 00:18:29,590 --> 00:18:31,060 And by God... 221 00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:33,160 we better do it when we have greater superiority 222 00:18:33,220 --> 00:18:35,760 than we will have in the future. 223 00:18:48,770 --> 00:18:51,510 At the time, we had a 17-to-1 224 00:18:51,580 --> 00:18:54,280 strategic advantage in nuclear numbers. 225 00:18:54,350 --> 00:18:58,780 We'd done 10 times as many tests as they had. 226 00:18:58,850 --> 00:19:01,890 We were certain we could retain that advantage 227 00:19:01,950 --> 00:19:06,620 if we limited the tests. The chiefs were all opposed. 228 00:19:06,690 --> 00:19:08,760 They said, "The Soviets will cheat." 229 00:19:08,830 --> 00:19:11,430 Well, I said, "How will they cheat?" 230 00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:14,070 You won't believe this, but they said: 231 00:19:14,130 --> 00:19:18,470 "They'll test them behind the moon." 232 00:19:18,540 --> 00:19:21,670 I said, "You're out of your mind." 233 00:19:21,740 --> 00:19:23,680 I-- That's absurd. 234 00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:29,150 It's almost impossible for our people today 235 00:19:29,210 --> 00:19:33,750 to put themselves back into that period. 236 00:19:33,820 --> 00:19:36,390 In my seven years as secretary, 237 00:19:36,450 --> 00:19:40,160 we came within a hairsbreadth of war with the Soviet Union 238 00:19:40,220 --> 00:19:42,130 on three different occasions. 239 00:19:42,190 --> 00:19:44,960 Twenty-four hours a day, 365 days a year, 240 00:19:45,030 --> 00:19:47,060 for seven years as secretary of defense, 241 00:19:47,130 --> 00:19:48,830 I lived the Cold War. 242 00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:52,270 During the Kennedy administration, 243 00:19:52,340 --> 00:19:56,710 they designed a 100-megaton bomb. 244 00:19:56,770 --> 00:19:58,980 It was tested in the atmosphere. 245 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,110 I remember this. 246 00:20:01,180 --> 00:20:05,150 Cold War? Hell, it was a hot war. 247 00:20:08,790 --> 00:20:14,060 I think the human race needs to think more about killing, 248 00:20:14,130 --> 00:20:16,060 about conflict. 249 00:20:16,130 --> 00:20:19,060 Is that what we want in this 21st century? 250 00:20:51,100 --> 00:20:57,200 My earliest memory is of a city exploding with joy. 251 00:20:57,270 --> 00:21:02,410 It was November 11, 1918. I was 2 years old. 252 00:21:04,010 --> 00:21:07,950 You may not believe that I have the memory, but I do. 253 00:21:08,010 --> 00:21:11,420 I remember the tops of the streetcars 254 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,090 being crowded with human beings 255 00:21:15,150 --> 00:21:18,460 cheering and kissing and screaming. 256 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:20,990 End of World War I. We'd won. 257 00:21:22,430 --> 00:21:24,960 But also celebrating the belief 258 00:21:25,030 --> 00:21:27,730 of many Americans, particularly Woodrow Wilson, 259 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,170 we'd fought a war to end all wars. 260 00:21:32,970 --> 00:21:35,040 His dream was 261 00:21:35,110 --> 00:21:39,240 that the world could avoid great wars in the future. 262 00:21:39,310 --> 00:21:43,410 Disputes among great nations would be resolved. 263 00:21:47,220 --> 00:21:48,720 I also remember 264 00:21:48,790 --> 00:21:50,520 that I wasn't allowed to go outdoors 265 00:21:50,590 --> 00:21:52,420 to play with my friends, 266 00:21:52,490 --> 00:21:54,590 without wearing a mask. 267 00:21:54,660 --> 00:21:58,160 There was an ungodly flu epidemic. 268 00:21:58,230 --> 00:22:01,670 Large numbers of Americans were dying, 600,000. 269 00:22:01,730 --> 00:22:04,500 And millions across the world. 270 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,580 My class in the first grade 271 00:22:18,650 --> 00:22:21,290 was housed in a shack, a wooden shack. 272 00:22:21,350 --> 00:22:23,390 But we had an absolutely superb teacher. 273 00:22:23,450 --> 00:22:28,160 And this teacher gave a test to the class every month, 274 00:22:28,230 --> 00:22:30,130 and she re-seated the class 275 00:22:30,190 --> 00:22:32,060 based on the results of that test. 276 00:22:32,130 --> 00:22:34,000 There were vertical rows, 277 00:22:34,070 --> 00:22:35,900 and she put the person with the highest grade 278 00:22:35,970 --> 00:22:38,200 in the first seat on the left-hand row. 279 00:22:38,270 --> 00:22:40,910 And I worked my tail off to be in that first seat. 280 00:22:40,970 --> 00:22:43,240 Now, the majority of the classmates were whites, 281 00:22:43,310 --> 00:22:44,480 Caucasians, so on. 282 00:22:44,540 --> 00:22:46,080 WASPs, if you will. 283 00:22:46,140 --> 00:22:50,680 But my competition for that first seat 284 00:22:50,750 --> 00:22:52,750 were Chinese, Japanese and Jews. 285 00:22:52,820 --> 00:22:54,120 On Saturday and Sunday, 286 00:22:54,190 --> 00:22:55,490 I went and played with my classmates. 287 00:22:55,550 --> 00:22:57,620 They went to their ethnic schools. 288 00:22:57,690 --> 00:22:59,290 They learned their native language. 289 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:01,260 They learned their culture, their history. 290 00:23:01,330 --> 00:23:03,660 And they came back determined on Monday 291 00:23:03,730 --> 00:23:05,000 to beat that damn Irishman. 292 00:23:05,060 --> 00:23:08,430 But they didn't do it very often. 293 00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:10,030 One congressman called you 294 00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:11,970 "Mr. I-Have-All-The-Answers McNamara." 295 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,810 And there's been suggestion from some congressmen 296 00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:16,240 that you come up there, 297 00:23:16,310 --> 00:23:17,940 in spite of the weight of their experience, 298 00:23:18,010 --> 00:23:20,340 prepared to give them simple little lessons in things. 299 00:23:20,410 --> 00:23:21,950 Is that your attitude? 300 00:23:22,010 --> 00:23:26,080 No. Perhaps they don't know how much I don't know. 301 00:23:26,150 --> 00:23:27,720 And there is much indeed. 302 00:23:27,790 --> 00:23:30,250 I do make a serious effort 303 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,920 to prepare myself properly 304 00:23:32,990 --> 00:23:34,930 for these congressional discussions. 305 00:23:34,990 --> 00:23:38,760 I suppose I spend, perhaps, 100 or 120 hours 306 00:23:38,830 --> 00:23:41,430 in testifying before Congress each year. 307 00:23:41,500 --> 00:23:44,170 And each hour of testimony requires, 308 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,670 uh, three to four hours of preparation. 309 00:23:46,740 --> 00:23:48,870 REASONER: What about the contention 310 00:23:48,940 --> 00:23:50,270 that your attitude is sometimes arrogant? 311 00:23:50,340 --> 00:23:51,810 That you'd never admit you were wrong. 312 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:53,180 Have you ever been wrong, sir? 313 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:54,880 Oh, yes, indeed. My heavens. 314 00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:57,250 I'm not gonna tell you when I've been wrong. 315 00:23:57,310 --> 00:23:59,880 If you don't know, I'm not going to tell you. 316 00:23:59,950 --> 00:24:01,550 Oh, on countless occasions. 317 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,720 I applied to Stanford University. 318 00:24:07,790 --> 00:24:09,190 I very much wanted to go. 319 00:24:09,260 --> 00:24:10,830 But I couldn't afford it, 320 00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:13,130 so I lived at home and I went to Berkeley. 321 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,230 Fifty-two dollars a year tuition. 322 00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:18,270 I started Berkeley at the bottom of the Depression. 323 00:24:18,340 --> 00:24:21,010 Twenty-five million males were unemployed. 324 00:24:21,070 --> 00:24:22,610 Out of that class of 3500 325 00:24:22,670 --> 00:24:25,940 three elected to Phi Beta Kappa at the end of sophomore year. 326 00:24:26,010 --> 00:24:28,850 Of those three, one became a Rhodes Scholar, 327 00:24:28,910 --> 00:24:30,180 I went to Harvard 328 00:24:30,250 --> 00:24:32,780 the third went to work for $65 a month 329 00:24:32,850 --> 00:24:36,150 and was damn happy to have the job. 330 00:24:36,220 --> 00:24:39,690 The society was on the verge of, uh... 331 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,760 I don't want to say revolution. 332 00:24:41,830 --> 00:24:46,030 Although, had Roosevelt not done some of the things he did 333 00:24:46,100 --> 00:24:49,330 it could've become far more violent. 334 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,870 In any event, that was what I was thrown into. 335 00:24:53,940 --> 00:24:56,040 I never heard of Plato and Aristotle 336 00:24:56,110 --> 00:24:58,240 before I became a freshman at Berkeley. 337 00:24:58,310 --> 00:25:00,540 And I remember the professor, Lowenberg, 338 00:25:00,610 --> 00:25:02,950 the freshman philosophy professor-- 339 00:25:03,010 --> 00:25:05,480 I couldn't wait to go to another class. 340 00:25:17,390 --> 00:25:20,600 I took more philosophy courses, particularly one in logic 341 00:25:20,660 --> 00:25:22,700 and one in ethics. 342 00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:28,010 Stress on values, 343 00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:31,180 something beyond one's self 344 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,480 and a responsibility to society. 345 00:25:36,950 --> 00:25:39,250 After graduating University of California 346 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,320 I went to Harvard Graduate School of Business 347 00:25:41,390 --> 00:25:42,820 for two years, 348 00:25:42,890 --> 00:25:45,090 and then I went back to San Francisco. 349 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,490 I began to court this young lady 350 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,100 that I'd met when we were 17 351 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,170 in our first week at Berkeley: 352 00:25:55,270 --> 00:25:57,430 Margaret Craig. 353 00:25:57,500 --> 00:26:02,910 And I was making some progress after eight or nine months. 354 00:26:02,970 --> 00:26:05,640 I proposed and she accepted. 355 00:26:05,710 --> 00:26:09,050 She went with her aunt and her mother 356 00:26:09,110 --> 00:26:10,550 on a trip across the country. 357 00:26:10,610 --> 00:26:14,650 She telegraphed me, "Must order engraved invitations 358 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,020 to include your middle name, what is it?" 359 00:26:17,090 --> 00:26:19,420 I wired back, "My middle name is Strange." 360 00:26:19,490 --> 00:26:21,930 She said, "I know it's strange, but what is it?" 361 00:26:21,990 --> 00:26:25,630 Well, I mean, it is Strange. It's Robert Strange McNamara. 362 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,210 And it was a marriage made in heaven. 363 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,210 At the end of a year, we had our first child. 364 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:49,520 The delivery costs were $100, and we paid that $10 a month. 365 00:26:49,590 --> 00:26:53,190 Those were some of the happiest days of our lives. 366 00:26:54,460 --> 00:26:57,260 And then the war came. 367 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,140 I'd been promoted to assistant professor. 368 00:27:08,210 --> 00:27:10,910 I was the youngest assistant professor at Harvard. 369 00:27:10,970 --> 00:27:15,010 And on a salary, by the way, of $4000 a year. 370 00:27:19,950 --> 00:27:23,750 Harvard Business School's market was drying up. 371 00:27:23,820 --> 00:27:26,720 The males were being drafted or volunteering. 372 00:27:26,790 --> 00:27:28,590 So the dean, being farsighted, 373 00:27:28,660 --> 00:27:30,590 brought back a government contract 374 00:27:30,660 --> 00:27:33,130 to establish an officer candidate school 375 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:34,500 for what was called 376 00:27:34,570 --> 00:27:37,800 Statistical Control in the Air Force. 377 00:27:44,610 --> 00:27:46,110 We said to the Air Force, 378 00:27:46,180 --> 00:27:48,080 "Look, we're not gonna take anybody you send up here. 379 00:27:48,150 --> 00:27:50,950 We're gonna select the people." 380 00:27:51,010 --> 00:27:54,150 You have a punch card for every human being 381 00:27:54,220 --> 00:27:55,750 brought into the Air Corps. 382 00:27:55,820 --> 00:27:57,220 We're gonna run those punch cards 383 00:27:57,290 --> 00:28:00,320 through the IBM sorting machines, 384 00:28:00,390 --> 00:28:05,000 and we're gonna sort on age, education, accomplishment, 385 00:28:05,060 --> 00:28:07,560 grades, et cetera. 386 00:28:09,170 --> 00:28:11,670 We were looking for the best and the brightest. 387 00:28:11,740 --> 00:28:16,070 The best brains, the greatest capacity to lead, 388 00:28:16,140 --> 00:28:18,180 the best judgment. 389 00:28:29,590 --> 00:28:31,820 The U.S. was just beginning to bomb. 390 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,290 We were bombing by daylight. 391 00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:38,460 The loss rate was very, very high. 392 00:28:40,900 --> 00:28:44,700 So they commissioned a study. And what did we find? 393 00:28:44,770 --> 00:28:47,340 We found the abort rate was 20 percent. 394 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,870 20 percent of the planes that took off from England, 395 00:28:49,940 --> 00:28:51,340 to bomb targets in Germany, 396 00:28:51,410 --> 00:28:53,310 turned around before they got to the target. 397 00:28:53,380 --> 00:28:54,680 That was a hell of a mess. 398 00:28:54,750 --> 00:28:57,510 We lost 20 percent of our capability right there. 399 00:28:57,580 --> 00:28:59,450 The form, I think, was called Form 1-A 400 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,920 or something like that. It was a mission report. 401 00:29:01,990 --> 00:29:04,990 And if you aborted a mission, you had to write down why. 402 00:29:05,060 --> 00:29:08,590 So we get all these things and we analyze them, 403 00:29:08,660 --> 00:29:10,990 and we finally concluded: 404 00:29:11,060 --> 00:29:12,600 It was baloney. 405 00:29:12,660 --> 00:29:15,000 They were aborting out of fear. 406 00:29:15,070 --> 00:29:17,900 Because the loss rate was four percent per sortie. 407 00:29:17,970 --> 00:29:20,000 The combat tour was 25 sorties. 408 00:29:20,070 --> 00:29:22,170 It didn't mean 100 percent were gonna be killed, 409 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,610 but a hell of a lot of them were gonna be killed. 410 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,040 They knew that and they found reasons 411 00:29:26,110 --> 00:29:28,850 to not go over the target. 412 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,420 So we reported this. 413 00:29:37,620 --> 00:29:40,320 One of the commanders was Curtis LeMay. 414 00:29:40,390 --> 00:29:43,830 Colonel in command of a B-24 group. 415 00:29:43,890 --> 00:29:46,360 He was the finest combat commander 416 00:29:46,430 --> 00:29:48,430 of any service I came across in war. 417 00:29:48,500 --> 00:29:50,570 But he was extraordinarily belligerent, 418 00:29:50,630 --> 00:29:52,470 many thought brutal. 419 00:29:52,540 --> 00:29:55,640 He got the report. He issued an order. 420 00:29:55,710 --> 00:29:58,580 He said, "I will be in the lead plane on every mission. 421 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,710 "Any plane that takes off will go over the target 422 00:30:01,780 --> 00:30:03,810 or the crew will be court-martialed." 423 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,620 The abort rate dropped overnight. 424 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,820 Now, that's the kind of a commander he was. 425 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:13,760 ANNOUNCER: Ladies and gentlemen, 426 00:30:13,820 --> 00:30:16,930 the president of the United States. 427 00:30:16,990 --> 00:30:20,500 ROOSEVELT: My friends, on this Christmas Eve 428 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,830 there are over 10 million men 429 00:30:22,900 --> 00:30:27,300 in the Armed Forces of the United States alone. 430 00:30:27,370 --> 00:30:33,180 One year ago, 1,700,000 were serving overseas. 431 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,450 By next July first, 432 00:30:35,510 --> 00:30:40,220 that number will rise to over five million. 433 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,490 Plenty of bad news for the Japs 434 00:30:43,550 --> 00:30:46,220 in the not-too-far-distant future. 435 00:30:58,970 --> 00:31:01,670 [TURNSTILES DING] 436 00:31:05,510 --> 00:31:09,910 MCNAMARA: The U.S. Air Force had a new airplane, named the B-29. 437 00:31:17,250 --> 00:31:23,360 The B-17s and B-24s in Europe bombed from 15, 16,000 feet. 438 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,570 The problem was that they were subject to anti-aircraft fire 439 00:31:28,630 --> 00:31:31,770 and to fighter aircraft. 440 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,670 To relieve that, this B-29 was being developed 441 00:31:34,740 --> 00:31:36,910 that bombed from high altitude, 442 00:31:36,970 --> 00:31:40,180 and it was thought we could destroy targets 443 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,110 much more efficiently and effectively. 444 00:31:49,290 --> 00:31:51,790 I was brought back from the 8th Air Force 445 00:31:51,860 --> 00:31:54,460 and assigned to the first B-29s, 446 00:31:54,530 --> 00:31:57,290 the 58th Bomb Wing. 447 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:04,100 We had to fly those planes from the bases in Kansas to India. 448 00:32:04,170 --> 00:32:07,940 Then we had to fly fuel over the hump into China. 449 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,960 The airfields were built with Chinese labor. 450 00:32:33,860 --> 00:32:36,070 It was an insane operation. 451 00:32:39,900 --> 00:32:44,040 I can still remember them hauling these huge rollers, 452 00:32:44,110 --> 00:32:47,880 to crush the stone and make them flat. 453 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:50,910 A long rope, somebody would slip, 454 00:32:50,980 --> 00:32:52,320 the roller would roll over him, 455 00:32:52,380 --> 00:32:54,950 everybody would laugh and go on. 456 00:32:57,690 --> 00:33:00,190 We were supposed to take these B-29s-- 457 00:33:00,260 --> 00:33:02,230 There were no tanker aircraft there. 458 00:33:02,290 --> 00:33:04,090 We were to fill them with fuel, 459 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,500 fly from India to Chengdu, 460 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,030 offload the fuel, fly back to India, 461 00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:12,170 make enough missions to build up fuel in Chengdu, 462 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,070 fly to Yawata, Japan, bomb the steel mills 463 00:33:15,140 --> 00:33:16,940 and go back to India. 464 00:33:18,510 --> 00:33:20,980 We had so little training on this problem 465 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,850 of maximizing efficiency, 466 00:33:22,910 --> 00:33:25,720 we actually found, to get some of the B-29s back 467 00:33:25,780 --> 00:33:29,290 instead of offloading fuel, they had to take it on. 468 00:33:32,260 --> 00:33:36,390 To make a long story short, it wasn't worth a damn. 469 00:33:36,460 --> 00:33:38,330 And it was LeMay who really 470 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,430 came to that conclusion and led the chiefs 471 00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:42,330 to move the whole thing to the Marianas, 472 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,600 which devastated Japan. 473 00:34:27,710 --> 00:34:31,350 LeMay was focused on only one thing: 474 00:34:32,550 --> 00:34:34,850 Target destruction. 475 00:34:36,350 --> 00:34:38,320 Most Air Force generals could tell you 476 00:34:38,390 --> 00:34:39,790 how many planes they had, 477 00:34:39,860 --> 00:34:41,320 how many tons of bombs they dropped, 478 00:34:41,390 --> 00:34:42,560 or whatever the hell it was. 479 00:34:42,630 --> 00:34:45,000 But he was the only person that I knew 480 00:34:45,060 --> 00:34:48,360 in the senior command in the Air Force who focused solely 481 00:34:48,430 --> 00:34:52,940 on the loss of his crews per unit of target destruction. 482 00:34:57,210 --> 00:35:00,180 I was on the island of Guam, in his command, 483 00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:03,380 in March of 1945. 484 00:35:04,850 --> 00:35:08,850 In that single night, we burned to death 485 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,560 100,000 Japanese civilians in Tokyo. 486 00:35:12,620 --> 00:35:14,690 Men, women and children. 487 00:35:18,430 --> 00:35:21,500 MORRIS: Were you aware this was going to happen? 488 00:35:22,930 --> 00:35:25,500 Well, I was-- 489 00:35:25,570 --> 00:35:30,210 I was part of a mechanism that, in a sense, recommended it. 490 00:35:44,820 --> 00:35:47,620 I analyzed bombing operations, 491 00:35:47,690 --> 00:35:49,660 and how to make them more efficient, 492 00:35:49,730 --> 00:35:52,800 i.e., not more efficient in the sense of killing more, 493 00:35:52,860 --> 00:35:56,700 but more efficient in weakening the adversary. 494 00:36:00,100 --> 00:36:03,570 I wrote one report analyzing 495 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:08,010 the efficiency of the B-29 operations. 496 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,710 The B-29 could get above the fighter aircraft 497 00:36:10,780 --> 00:36:12,220 and above the air defense, 498 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,890 so the loss rate would be much less. 499 00:36:14,950 --> 00:36:16,550 The problem was... 500 00:36:16,620 --> 00:36:18,660 the accuracy was also much less. 501 00:36:29,970 --> 00:36:33,270 Now, I don't want to suggest that it was my report 502 00:36:33,340 --> 00:36:36,710 that led to-- I'll call it the firebombing. 503 00:36:39,140 --> 00:36:41,240 It isn't that I'm trying to absolve myself 504 00:36:41,310 --> 00:36:42,780 of blame for the firebombing. 505 00:36:42,850 --> 00:36:44,980 I don't want to suggest that it was I... 506 00:36:45,050 --> 00:36:47,120 that put in LeMay's mind 507 00:36:47,180 --> 00:36:50,420 that his operations were totally inefficient, 508 00:36:50,490 --> 00:36:52,160 and had to be drastically changed. 509 00:36:52,220 --> 00:36:54,890 But, anyhow, that's what he did. 510 00:36:54,960 --> 00:37:00,200 He took the B-29s down to 5000 feet 511 00:37:00,260 --> 00:37:03,770 and he decided to bomb with firebombs. 512 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:23,920 I participated in the interrogation 513 00:37:23,990 --> 00:37:28,160 of the B-29 bomber crews that came back that night. 514 00:37:28,220 --> 00:37:32,800 A room full of crewmen and intelligence interrogators. 515 00:37:32,860 --> 00:37:34,870 A captain got up, a young captain said: 516 00:37:34,930 --> 00:37:38,070 "Goddamn it, I'd like to know who the son of a bitch was 517 00:37:38,130 --> 00:37:40,170 "that took this magnificent airplane, 518 00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:43,070 "designed to bomb from 23, 000 feet 519 00:37:43,140 --> 00:37:46,910 "and he took it down to 5000 feet, and I lost my wingman. 520 00:37:46,980 --> 00:37:48,750 He was shot and killed." 521 00:37:50,610 --> 00:37:53,250 LeMay spoke in monosyllables. 522 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,290 I never heard him say 523 00:37:55,350 --> 00:37:57,790 more than two words in sequence. 524 00:37:57,850 --> 00:38:01,490 It was basically, "Yes," "No," "Yep" 525 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,490 "That's all," or "Hell with it." 526 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,730 That was all he said. 527 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,770 And LeMay was totally intolerant of criticism. 528 00:38:09,830 --> 00:38:14,070 He never engaged in discussion with anybody. 529 00:38:14,140 --> 00:38:16,770 He stood up. 530 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:18,810 "Why are we here? 531 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,240 "Why are we here? 532 00:38:21,310 --> 00:38:25,520 "You lost your wingman. It hurts me as much as 533 00:38:25,580 --> 00:38:27,050 "it does you. 534 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,620 "I sent him there. 535 00:38:29,690 --> 00:38:32,320 "And I've been there, I know what it is. 536 00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:35,390 "But you lost one wingman 537 00:38:35,460 --> 00:38:37,560 and we destroyed Tokyo." 538 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,340 Fifty square miles of Tokyo were burned. 539 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,110 Tokyo was a wooden city, 540 00:38:49,170 --> 00:38:50,440 and when we dropped these firebombs 541 00:38:50,510 --> 00:38:52,710 and it just burned it. 542 00:39:40,390 --> 00:39:43,460 MORRIS: The choice of incendiary bombs, 543 00:39:43,530 --> 00:39:46,830 where did that come from? 544 00:39:46,900 --> 00:39:49,070 I think the issue... 545 00:39:49,130 --> 00:39:51,800 is not so much incendiary bombs. 546 00:39:51,870 --> 00:39:54,100 I think the issue is, in order to win a war 547 00:39:54,170 --> 00:39:56,440 should you kill 100,000 people in one night? 548 00:39:56,510 --> 00:39:58,140 By firebombing or any other way? 549 00:39:58,210 --> 00:40:00,710 LeMay's answer would be, clearly, "Yes." 550 00:40:00,780 --> 00:40:02,410 "McNamara, do you mean to say 551 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,450 "that instead of killing 100,000 552 00:40:04,510 --> 00:40:06,920 "burning to death 100,000 Japanese civilians 553 00:40:06,980 --> 00:40:08,320 "in that one night 554 00:40:08,380 --> 00:40:11,090 "we should have burned to death a lesser number or none? 555 00:40:11,150 --> 00:40:14,020 "And then had our soldiers cross the beaches in Tokyo 556 00:40:14,090 --> 00:40:16,460 "and been slaughtered in tens of thousands? 557 00:40:16,530 --> 00:40:19,900 Is that what you're proposing? Is that moral? Is that wise?" 558 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,570 Why was it necessary to drop the nuclear bomb 559 00:40:22,630 --> 00:40:24,870 if LeMay was burning up Japan? 560 00:40:24,940 --> 00:40:29,210 And he went on from Tokyo to firebomb other cities. 561 00:40:29,270 --> 00:40:30,970 58 percent of Yokohama. 562 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:32,610 Yokohama is roughly the size of Cleveland. 563 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,310 58 percent of Cleveland destroyed. 564 00:40:37,310 --> 00:40:39,350 Tokyo is roughly the size of New York. 565 00:40:39,420 --> 00:40:41,990 51 percent of New York destroyed. 566 00:40:42,050 --> 00:40:44,650 99 percent of the equivalent of Chattanooga, 567 00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:46,990 which was Toyama. 568 00:40:47,060 --> 00:40:49,290 40 percent of the equivalent of Los Angeles, 569 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:50,690 which was Nagoya. 570 00:40:52,630 --> 00:40:55,430 This was all done before 571 00:40:55,500 --> 00:40:57,700 the dropping of the nuclear bomb. 572 00:40:57,770 --> 00:41:02,010 Which, by the way, was dropped by LeMay's command. 573 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,940 Proportionality should be a guideline in war. 574 00:41:31,370 --> 00:41:34,670 Killing 50 to 90 percent 575 00:41:34,740 --> 00:41:37,810 of the people in 67 Japanese cities 576 00:41:37,870 --> 00:41:41,340 and then bombing them with two nuclear bombs 577 00:41:41,410 --> 00:41:45,250 is not proportional, in the minds of some people 578 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,550 to the objectives we were trying to achieve. 579 00:42:04,770 --> 00:42:08,570 I don't fault Truman for dropping the nuclear bomb. 580 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,770 The U.S.-Japanese War was one of the most brutal wars 581 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,040 in all of human history. 582 00:42:14,110 --> 00:42:18,010 Kamikaze pilots, suicide, unbelievable. 583 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:19,620 What one can criticize, 584 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,190 is that the human race prior to that time and today 585 00:42:23,250 --> 00:42:25,790 has not really grappled 586 00:42:25,860 --> 00:42:27,890 with what are, I'll call it "the rules of war." 587 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,760 Was there a rule then that said you shouldn't bomb, 588 00:42:30,830 --> 00:42:32,360 shouldn't kill, 589 00:42:32,430 --> 00:42:35,400 shouldn't burn to death 100,000 civilians in a night? 590 00:42:37,270 --> 00:42:39,270 LeMay said, "If we'd lost the war 591 00:42:39,340 --> 00:42:42,370 we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals." 592 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,840 And I think he's right. 593 00:42:46,180 --> 00:42:49,080 He, and I'd say I 594 00:42:49,150 --> 00:42:51,850 were behaving as war criminals. 595 00:42:55,950 --> 00:43:00,060 LeMay recognized that what he was doing 596 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,830 would be thought immoral 597 00:43:02,890 --> 00:43:06,630 if his side had lost. 598 00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:08,800 But what makes it immoral if you lose 599 00:43:08,860 --> 00:43:10,630 and not immoral if you win? 600 00:45:23,700 --> 00:45:26,700 JOHNSON: Okay, Bob. MCNAMARA: Thank you. 601 00:45:37,150 --> 00:45:39,880 MORRIS: At some point, we have to approach Vietnam, 602 00:45:39,950 --> 00:45:41,780 and I want to know 603 00:45:41,850 --> 00:45:43,950 how you can best set that up for me. 604 00:45:44,020 --> 00:45:46,160 Yeah, well, uh... 605 00:45:46,220 --> 00:45:50,560 that's a hard, hard question. I think-- 606 00:45:52,700 --> 00:45:56,770 I think we have to approach it in the context of the Cold War. 607 00:45:56,830 --> 00:45:59,740 But first I'll have to talk about Ford. 608 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,270 I've got to go back to the end of the war. 609 00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:17,490 I had a terrible headache, 610 00:46:17,550 --> 00:46:22,260 so Marg drove me in to the Air Force regional hospital. 611 00:46:22,330 --> 00:46:24,790 A week later, Marg came in 612 00:46:24,860 --> 00:46:27,330 many of the same symptoms. 613 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,600 It's hard to believe, and I don't think 614 00:46:29,670 --> 00:46:31,130 I've ever heard of another case 615 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,770 where two individuals, husband and wife, 616 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,770 came down, essentially, at the same time with polio. 617 00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:41,880 We were both in the hospital on V-J Day. 618 00:46:44,950 --> 00:46:46,350 A friend of mine said: 619 00:46:46,420 --> 00:46:49,350 "We're gonna find a corporation in America that needs 620 00:46:49,420 --> 00:46:51,720 "the advice and capabilities of this extraordinary group 621 00:46:51,790 --> 00:46:53,420 "of people I'm going to bring together. 622 00:46:53,490 --> 00:46:55,020 and you gotta be part it." 623 00:46:55,090 --> 00:46:58,060 I said, "To hell with it. I'm going back to Harvard. 624 00:46:58,130 --> 00:47:01,130 That's what Marg and I wanna do. I'm gonna spend my life there." 625 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,770 He said, "Look, Bob, you can't pay Marg's hospital bills. 626 00:47:04,830 --> 00:47:07,340 You're crazy as hell." He said, "By the way 627 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,840 the company that most needs our help in all the U.S. is Ford." 628 00:47:10,910 --> 00:47:12,580 Well, I said, "How'd you learn that?" 629 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,080 Oh he said, "I read an article in Life magazine." 630 00:47:16,150 --> 00:47:18,380 Of the top 1000 executives at Ford Motor Company. 631 00:47:18,450 --> 00:47:22,180 I don't believe there were 10 college graduates 632 00:47:22,250 --> 00:47:24,550 and Henry Ford II needed help. 633 00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,390 They were gonna give us tests. 634 00:47:29,460 --> 00:47:30,890 Two full days of testing: 635 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:32,660 intelligence tests, achievement tests, 636 00:47:32,730 --> 00:47:35,230 personality tests, you name it. 637 00:47:35,300 --> 00:47:37,300 This sounds absurd, but I remember 638 00:47:37,370 --> 00:47:39,700 one of the questions on one of the tests was: 639 00:47:39,770 --> 00:47:43,570 "Would you rather be a florist or a coal miner?" 640 00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:47,280 I should tell you I had been a florist. 641 00:47:47,340 --> 00:47:50,310 I worked as a florist during some of my Christmas vacations. 642 00:47:50,380 --> 00:47:51,710 I put down coal miner. 643 00:47:51,780 --> 00:47:56,320 I think the reasons are obvious to you. 644 00:47:56,390 --> 00:47:59,760 This group of 10 people had been trained 645 00:47:59,820 --> 00:48:02,590 in the officer candidate school at Harvard. 646 00:48:02,660 --> 00:48:05,160 In some tests we actually had the highest marks 647 00:48:05,230 --> 00:48:06,760 that had ever been scored. 648 00:48:06,830 --> 00:48:10,430 In other tests, we were in the upper one percentile. 649 00:48:16,770 --> 00:48:20,380 From 1926 to 1946, including the war years, 650 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,710 Ford Motor Company just barely broke even. 651 00:48:24,750 --> 00:48:26,750 It was a God-awful mess. 652 00:48:29,180 --> 00:48:31,550 I thought we had a responsibility 653 00:48:31,620 --> 00:48:33,360 to the stockholders, 654 00:48:33,420 --> 00:48:36,090 and God knows you cannot believe 655 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,760 how bad the situation had been. 656 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:57,980 They didn't have a market research organization. 657 00:48:58,050 --> 00:48:59,520 I set one up. 658 00:48:59,580 --> 00:49:01,620 The manager said to me, "What do you want me to study?" 659 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:03,990 I said, "Find out who in the hell is buying Volkswagens. 660 00:49:04,050 --> 00:49:06,220 "Everybody says it's a no-good car. 661 00:49:06,290 --> 00:49:08,620 "It was only selling about 20,000 a year, 662 00:49:08,690 --> 00:49:10,930 "but I want to know what's gonna happen. 663 00:49:10,990 --> 00:49:13,630 "Is it gonna stay the same, go down, or go up? 664 00:49:13,700 --> 00:49:15,000 Find out who buys them." 665 00:49:15,060 --> 00:49:17,270 He came back six months later, he said: 666 00:49:17,330 --> 00:49:19,340 "Well, they're professors, 667 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:21,370 "and they're doctors, and they're lawyers 668 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,140 and they're obviously people who can afford more." 669 00:49:24,210 --> 00:49:26,240 Well, that set me to thinking 670 00:49:26,310 --> 00:49:27,910 about what we in the industry should do. 671 00:49:27,980 --> 00:49:31,250 Was there a market we were missing? 672 00:49:31,310 --> 00:49:35,520 At this time nobody believed Americans wanted cheaper cars. 673 00:49:35,590 --> 00:49:39,490 They wanted conspicuous consumption. 674 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,330 Cadillac, with these huge, ostentatious fins 675 00:49:43,390 --> 00:49:46,560 set the style for the industry for 10 or 15 years. 676 00:49:48,260 --> 00:49:50,730 And that's what we were up against. 677 00:49:52,870 --> 00:49:56,640 We introduced the Falcon as a more economical car, 678 00:49:56,710 --> 00:50:00,380 and it was a huge success profit-wise. 679 00:50:05,050 --> 00:50:07,350 We accomplished a lot. 680 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:18,430 [CROWD CHATTERING] 681 00:50:22,530 --> 00:50:25,940 I said, "What about accidents? I hear a lot about accidents." 682 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,240 "Oh, yes, we'll get you some data on that." 683 00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:36,950 There were about 40-odd thousand deaths per year 684 00:50:37,010 --> 00:50:38,580 from automobile accidents, 685 00:50:38,650 --> 00:50:40,650 and about a million, or a million-two injuries. 686 00:50:40,720 --> 00:50:42,420 And I said, "Well, what causes it?" 687 00:50:42,490 --> 00:50:43,950 Well he said, "It's obvious. 688 00:50:44,020 --> 00:50:46,660 It's human error and mechanical failure." 689 00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:48,120 I said, "Hell, if it's mechanical failure, 690 00:50:48,190 --> 00:50:49,890 "we might be involved. Let's dig into this. 691 00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:52,390 I wanna know if it's mechanical failure, I want to stop it." 692 00:50:52,460 --> 00:50:56,000 Well, he said, "There's really very few statistics available." 693 00:50:56,070 --> 00:50:58,600 I said, "Damn it, find out what can we learn." 694 00:50:58,670 --> 00:51:01,300 He said "Well, the only place we can find 695 00:51:01,370 --> 00:51:03,840 that knows anything about it is Cornell Aeronautical Labs." 696 00:51:03,910 --> 00:51:06,280 They said, "The major problem is packaging." 697 00:51:06,340 --> 00:51:09,650 They said, "You buy eggs and you know how eggs come in a carton?" 698 00:51:09,710 --> 00:51:12,080 I said, "I don't buy eggs. My wife does it." 699 00:51:12,150 --> 00:51:14,580 They said, "Well, talk to her and you ask her, 700 00:51:14,650 --> 00:51:16,150 "when she puts that carton down 701 00:51:16,220 --> 00:51:20,090 on the drain board when she gets home, do the eggs break?" 702 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:21,920 And so I asked Marg and she said no. 703 00:51:21,990 --> 00:51:23,690 So Cornell said, "They don't break because 704 00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:24,930 "they're packaged properly. 705 00:51:24,990 --> 00:51:27,900 "Now, if we packaged people in cars the same way 706 00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,170 we could reduce the breakage." 707 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,710 We lacked lab facilities, so we dropped human skulls 708 00:51:42,780 --> 00:51:44,380 in different packages, 709 00:51:44,450 --> 00:51:48,650 down the stairwells of the dormitories at Cornell. 710 00:51:50,590 --> 00:51:51,950 Well, that sounds absurd, 711 00:51:52,020 --> 00:51:54,790 but that guy was absolutely right. 712 00:51:54,860 --> 00:51:58,930 It was packaging which could make the difference. 713 00:52:07,540 --> 00:52:09,270 In a crash... 714 00:52:09,340 --> 00:52:14,410 the driver was often impaled on the steering wheel. 715 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:19,280 The passenger was often injured because he'd hit the windshield 716 00:52:19,350 --> 00:52:22,450 or the header bar, or the instrument panel. 717 00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,760 So in the 1956 model Ford we introduced steering wheels 718 00:52:28,820 --> 00:52:31,390 that prevented being impaled. We introduced 719 00:52:31,460 --> 00:52:35,230 padded instrument panels, and we introduced seat belts. 720 00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,130 We estimated if there would be 721 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:40,870 100 percent use of the seat belts 722 00:52:40,940 --> 00:52:43,910 we could save 20-odd thousand lives a year. 723 00:52:43,970 --> 00:52:46,410 Everybody was opposed to it. 724 00:52:54,150 --> 00:52:57,250 You couldn't get people to use seat belts. 725 00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,220 But those who did saved their lives. 726 00:53:18,070 --> 00:53:20,180 Now, let me jump ahead. 727 00:53:28,220 --> 00:53:32,120 It's July, 1960. 728 00:53:32,190 --> 00:53:35,320 John Bugas, vice president, industrial relations, 729 00:53:35,390 --> 00:53:38,630 clearly had his eyes on becoming president. 730 00:53:38,690 --> 00:53:41,700 I'm the group vice president in charge of all 731 00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,900 of the car divisions. 732 00:53:43,970 --> 00:53:46,740 Henry was a night owl. He always wanted to go out on the town. 733 00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:48,840 You know, it's 2 a.m. or something or other. 734 00:53:48,900 --> 00:53:50,610 He said, "Bob, come on up, have a nightcap." 735 00:53:50,670 --> 00:53:52,640 I said, "I don't want one, I'm going to bed." 736 00:53:52,710 --> 00:53:54,110 John says, "I'll come up, Henry." 737 00:53:54,180 --> 00:53:56,510 Henry said, "I didn't ask you, John. I asked Bob." 738 00:53:56,580 --> 00:53:58,850 He said, "Bob, come on up." So I finally went up. 739 00:53:58,910 --> 00:54:01,080 That's when he asked me to be president. 740 00:54:04,850 --> 00:54:08,460 I was the first president in the history of the company 741 00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:10,930 that had ever been president 742 00:54:10,990 --> 00:54:12,760 other than a member of the Ford family. 743 00:54:12,830 --> 00:54:15,330 And after five weeks, I quit. 744 00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:28,910 The telephone rang, 745 00:54:28,980 --> 00:54:32,310 a person comes on and says: "I'm Robert Kennedy. 746 00:54:32,380 --> 00:54:34,820 My brother, Jack Kennedy, would like you 747 00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,390 to meet our brother-in-law, Sergeant Shriver." 748 00:54:38,450 --> 00:54:40,920 Four o'clock, Sarge comes in. Never met him. 749 00:54:40,990 --> 00:54:45,360 And he said, "I've been authorized by my brother-in-law 750 00:54:45,430 --> 00:54:47,830 "Jack Kennedy, to offer you the position 751 00:54:47,900 --> 00:54:49,230 of secretary of the treasury." 752 00:54:49,300 --> 00:54:50,730 I said, "You're out of your mind. 753 00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:52,400 "I know a little about finance, 754 00:54:52,470 --> 00:54:54,140 but, I'm not qualified to be secretary of the treasury." 755 00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,210 "Anticipating you might say that, the president-elect 756 00:54:57,270 --> 00:55:00,210 authorized me to offer you the secretary of defense." 757 00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,340 "Look, I was in World War II for three years, 758 00:55:02,410 --> 00:55:03,910 "but secretary of defense? I'm not qualified 759 00:55:03,980 --> 00:55:05,550 to be secretary of defense." 760 00:55:05,610 --> 00:55:07,180 He said, "Anticipating that 761 00:55:07,250 --> 00:55:10,620 would you do him the courtesy of agreeing to meet with him?" 762 00:55:10,690 --> 00:55:13,760 So I go home. I meet with Marg. 763 00:55:13,820 --> 00:55:17,960 If I could appoint every senior official in the department 764 00:55:18,030 --> 00:55:20,630 and if I could be guaranteed I wouldn't have to 765 00:55:20,700 --> 00:55:23,430 be part of that damn Washington social world. 766 00:55:23,500 --> 00:55:24,870 She said, "Well, okay... 767 00:55:24,930 --> 00:55:27,400 "why don't you write a contract with the president 768 00:55:27,470 --> 00:55:30,040 and if he'll accept those two conditions, do it." 769 00:55:30,110 --> 00:55:34,410 My total net worth at the time was on the order of $800,000 770 00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:39,080 but I had huge unfulfilled stock options worth millions. 771 00:55:39,150 --> 00:55:41,180 And I was one of the highest-paid executives 772 00:55:41,250 --> 00:55:42,620 in the world. 773 00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:44,250 And the future was, of course, brilliant. 774 00:55:46,190 --> 00:55:48,320 We had called our children in. 775 00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:51,930 Their life would be totally changed. 776 00:55:51,990 --> 00:55:54,230 The salary of a cabinet secretary then 777 00:55:54,300 --> 00:55:56,630 was $25,000 a year. 778 00:55:56,700 --> 00:55:58,430 So we explained to the children 779 00:55:58,500 --> 00:56:01,500 they'd be giving up a few-- They could care less. 780 00:56:01,570 --> 00:56:03,840 Marg could care less. 781 00:56:10,380 --> 00:56:12,410 It was snowing. 782 00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:17,620 The Secret Service took me in the house by the back way. 783 00:56:17,690 --> 00:56:20,060 I can still see it. There's a loveseat... 784 00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,230 two armchairs with a lamp table in between. 785 00:56:23,290 --> 00:56:25,160 Jack Kennedy is sitting in one armchair 786 00:56:25,230 --> 00:56:29,000 and Bobby Kennedy's sitting in the other. 787 00:56:29,060 --> 00:56:33,040 "Mr. President, it's absurd. I'm not qualified." 788 00:56:34,140 --> 00:56:35,640 "Look, Bob." 789 00:56:35,700 --> 00:56:37,470 He said, "I don't think there's any school 790 00:56:37,540 --> 00:56:39,640 "for presidents either. 791 00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,910 He said "Let's announce it now. I'll write the announcement." 792 00:56:44,980 --> 00:56:47,220 So he wrote out the announcement, 793 00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:48,920 we walk out the front door. 794 00:56:48,980 --> 00:56:51,820 All of these television cameras and press, 795 00:56:51,890 --> 00:56:53,290 till hell wouldn't have it. 796 00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:55,520 That's how Marg learned I had accepted. 797 00:56:55,590 --> 00:56:58,990 It was on television, live. 798 00:56:59,060 --> 00:57:02,430 All right, why don't we do some pictures afterwards. 799 00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,570 I've asked Robert McNamara 800 00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:10,140 to assume the responsibilities of secretary of defense. 801 00:57:10,210 --> 00:57:12,270 And I'm glad and happy to say 802 00:57:12,340 --> 00:57:14,680 that he has accepted this responsibility. 803 00:57:14,740 --> 00:57:18,450 Mr. McNamara leaves the presidency of the Ford company 804 00:57:18,510 --> 00:57:21,250 at great personal sacrifice. 805 00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:24,650 That's the way it began. 806 00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:29,320 You know, it was a traumatic period. 807 00:57:29,390 --> 00:57:32,260 My wife probably got ulcers from it, 808 00:57:32,330 --> 00:57:34,660 may even ultimately have died from the stress. 809 00:57:34,730 --> 00:57:36,000 My son got ulcers. 810 00:57:36,070 --> 00:57:38,170 It was very traumatic but, 811 00:57:38,230 --> 00:57:40,840 they were some of the best years of our life 812 00:57:40,900 --> 00:57:45,310 and all members of my family benefited from it. 813 00:57:45,370 --> 00:57:47,580 It was terrific. 814 00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:00,690 October 2nd. 815 00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,430 I had returned from Vietnam. 816 00:58:04,490 --> 00:58:09,030 At that time, we had 16,000 military advisors. 817 00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:13,200 I recommended to President Kennedy 818 00:58:13,270 --> 00:58:15,070 and to the Security Council 819 00:58:15,140 --> 00:58:19,110 that we establish a plan and an objective 820 00:58:19,170 --> 00:58:22,110 of removing all of them within two years. 821 00:58:58,010 --> 00:59:00,680 Kennedy announced we were going to pull out 822 00:59:00,750 --> 00:59:01,880 all our military advisors 823 00:59:01,950 --> 00:59:03,450 by the end of '65, 824 00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:06,690 we're going to take 1000 out at the end of '63, and we did. 825 00:59:08,820 --> 00:59:12,960 But there was a coup in South Vietnam. 826 00:59:14,330 --> 00:59:17,270 Diem was overthrown 827 00:59:17,330 --> 00:59:19,900 and he and his brother were killed. 828 00:59:21,740 --> 00:59:24,670 I was present with the president 829 00:59:24,740 --> 00:59:28,240 when together we received information of that coup. 830 00:59:28,310 --> 00:59:31,450 I've never seen him... 831 00:59:31,510 --> 00:59:35,280 more upset. He totally blanched. 832 00:59:35,350 --> 00:59:39,650 Kennedy and I had tremendous problems with Diem, but my God, 833 00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,320 he was the authority. He was the head of state. 834 00:59:42,390 --> 00:59:45,730 And he was overthrown by a military coup. 835 00:59:45,790 --> 00:59:48,530 And Kennedy knew and I knew, that to some degree 836 00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,530 the U.S. government was responsible for that. 837 01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:08,380 I was in my office in the Pentagon, 838 01:00:08,450 --> 01:00:13,790 when the telephone rang and it was Bobby. 839 01:00:13,860 --> 01:00:17,430 The President had been shot in Dallas. 840 01:00:20,500 --> 01:00:23,770 Perhaps 45 minutes later, Bobby called again 841 01:00:23,830 --> 01:00:27,770 and said the president was dead. 842 01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:32,040 Jackie would like me to come out to the hospital. 843 01:00:32,110 --> 01:00:33,840 We took the body to the White House 844 01:00:33,910 --> 01:00:35,880 about whatever it was, 4 a.m. 845 01:00:35,940 --> 01:00:40,150 and called the superintendent of Arlington Cemetery. 846 01:00:40,220 --> 01:00:41,580 And he and I 847 01:00:45,050 --> 01:00:47,620 walked over those grounds. 848 01:00:49,190 --> 01:00:53,860 They're hauntingly beautiful grounds. 849 01:00:53,930 --> 01:00:56,430 White crosses, row and row. 850 01:00:56,500 --> 01:01:00,540 And finally I thought I'd found the exact spot 851 01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:02,870 the most beautiful spot in the cemetery. 852 01:01:04,270 --> 01:01:06,240 I called Jackie at the White House 853 01:01:06,310 --> 01:01:09,680 and asked her to come out there. She immediately accepted. 854 01:01:09,740 --> 01:01:13,580 And that's where the president is buried today. 855 01:01:13,650 --> 01:01:18,790 A park service ranger came up to me and said that he... 856 01:01:20,620 --> 01:01:22,490 He had... 857 01:01:24,330 --> 01:01:28,430 escorted President Kennedy on a tour of those grounds 858 01:01:28,500 --> 01:01:30,700 a few weeks before. 859 01:01:30,770 --> 01:01:32,270 And Kennedy said 860 01:01:32,330 --> 01:01:35,600 that was the most beautiful spot in Washington. 861 01:01:35,670 --> 01:01:37,970 That's where he's buried. 862 01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:51,820 I will do my best. 863 01:01:51,890 --> 01:01:55,820 That is all I can do. 864 01:01:55,890 --> 01:01:59,660 I ask for your help 865 01:01:59,730 --> 01:02:01,860 and God's. 866 01:03:43,500 --> 01:03:45,600 [EXPLOSIONS] 867 01:04:49,330 --> 01:04:51,670 GOLDWATER: Make no bones of this. 868 01:04:51,730 --> 01:04:54,640 Don't try to sweep this under the rug. 869 01:04:54,700 --> 01:04:59,270 We are at war in Vietnam. 870 01:04:59,340 --> 01:05:02,580 [CHEERING] 871 01:05:02,640 --> 01:05:04,480 And yet the president 872 01:05:04,550 --> 01:05:08,420 and his secretary of defense continues to mislead 873 01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:11,290 and misinform the American people, 874 01:05:11,350 --> 01:05:13,220 and enough of it's gone by. 875 01:05:39,010 --> 01:05:40,550 MCNAMARA: On August 2nd 876 01:05:40,620 --> 01:05:43,390 the destroyer Maddox reported it was attacked 877 01:05:43,450 --> 01:05:46,790 by a North Vietnamese patrol boat. 878 01:05:46,860 --> 01:05:49,290 It was an act of aggression against us. 879 01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:50,790 We were in international waters. 880 01:05:50,860 --> 01:05:53,130 I sent officials from the Defense Department 881 01:05:53,190 --> 01:05:54,400 out and we recovered 882 01:05:54,460 --> 01:05:56,130 pieces of North Vietnamese shells, 883 01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:57,570 that were clearly identified 884 01:05:57,630 --> 01:05:59,870 as North Vietnamese shells from the deck of the Maddox. 885 01:05:59,930 --> 01:06:02,870 So there was no question in my mind that it had occurred. 886 01:06:02,940 --> 01:06:06,210 But, in any event, we didn't respond. 887 01:06:06,270 --> 01:06:08,580 And it was very difficult. 888 01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:10,750 It was difficult for the president. 889 01:06:10,810 --> 01:06:13,250 There were very, very senior people, 890 01:06:13,310 --> 01:06:14,550 in uniform and out, who said: 891 01:06:14,620 --> 01:06:17,320 "My God, this president is..." 892 01:06:17,390 --> 01:06:20,020 They didn't use the word "coward," but in effect 893 01:06:20,090 --> 01:06:23,630 "He's not protecting the national interest." 894 01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:39,210 Two days later the Maddox and the Turner Joy, two destroyers 895 01:06:39,270 --> 01:06:41,310 reported they were attacked. 896 01:06:50,150 --> 01:06:53,860 There were sonar soundings. Torpedoes had been detected. 897 01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:57,290 Other indications of attack from patrol boats. 898 01:06:57,360 --> 01:06:59,330 We spent about 10 hours that day 899 01:06:59,390 --> 01:07:03,300 trying to find out what in the hell had happened. 900 01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:05,330 At one point the commander of the ship said, 901 01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:07,000 "We're not certain of the attack." 902 01:07:07,070 --> 01:07:09,140 Another point they said, "Yes, we're absolutely positive." 903 01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:11,740 Then finally, late in the day, Admiral Sharp said: 904 01:07:11,810 --> 01:07:15,410 "Yes, we're certain it happened." 905 01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:19,880 So I reported this to Johnson, and as a result... 906 01:07:19,950 --> 01:07:24,620 there were bombing attacks on targets in North Vietnam. 907 01:07:38,870 --> 01:07:41,170 Johnson said, "We may have to escalate. 908 01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:44,570 I'm not gonna do it without Congressional authority." 909 01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:46,510 And he put forward a resolution, 910 01:07:46,580 --> 01:07:47,840 the language of which 911 01:07:47,910 --> 01:07:50,950 gave complete authority to the president 912 01:07:51,010 --> 01:07:53,110 to take the nation to war: 913 01:07:53,180 --> 01:07:55,880 The Tonkin Gulf Resolution. 914 01:07:58,390 --> 01:08:02,960 Now, let me go back to the August 4th attack. 915 01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:14,800 It was just confusion. And events afterwards showed 916 01:09:14,860 --> 01:09:19,330 that our judgment that we'd been attacked that day was wrong. 917 01:09:20,300 --> 01:09:22,200 It didn't happen. 918 01:09:26,070 --> 01:09:31,080 And the judgment that we'd been attacked on August 2nd 919 01:09:31,150 --> 01:09:34,320 which we'd made, was right. We had been. 920 01:09:34,380 --> 01:09:38,090 Although that was disputed at the time. 921 01:09:38,150 --> 01:09:41,620 So we were right once and wrong once. 922 01:09:41,690 --> 01:09:45,330 Ultimately, President Johnson authorized bombing in response 923 01:09:45,390 --> 01:09:48,200 to what he thought had been the second attack. 924 01:09:48,260 --> 01:09:49,660 It hadn't occurred, 925 01:09:49,730 --> 01:09:51,970 but that's irrelevant to the point I'm making here. 926 01:09:52,030 --> 01:09:55,870 He authorized the attack on the assumption it had occurred. 927 01:09:57,170 --> 01:10:01,910 And his belief that it was a conscious decision 928 01:10:01,980 --> 01:10:03,950 on the part of the North Vietnamese political 929 01:10:04,010 --> 01:10:05,010 and military leaders 930 01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:08,620 to escalate the conflict... 931 01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:12,650 and an indication they would not stop short of winning. 932 01:10:17,660 --> 01:10:19,160 We were wrong. 933 01:10:19,230 --> 01:10:24,900 But we had in our minds a mindset that led to that action. 934 01:10:24,970 --> 01:10:28,100 And it carried such heavy costs. 935 01:10:37,750 --> 01:10:39,580 We see incorrectly, 936 01:10:39,650 --> 01:10:43,380 or we see only half of the story at times. 937 01:10:43,450 --> 01:10:45,350 MORRIS: We see what we want to believe. 938 01:10:45,420 --> 01:10:48,590 MCNAMARA: We see-- You're absolutely right. 939 01:10:50,220 --> 01:10:52,960 Belief and seeing. 940 01:10:53,030 --> 01:10:55,330 They're both often wrong. 941 01:11:01,770 --> 01:11:04,140 We Americans know, 942 01:11:04,210 --> 01:11:07,010 although others appear to forget, 943 01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:10,950 the risk of spreading conflict. 944 01:11:11,010 --> 01:11:14,750 We still seek no wider war. 945 01:11:35,370 --> 01:11:37,610 We introduced what was called "Rolling Thunder" 946 01:11:37,670 --> 01:11:39,170 which, over the years, 947 01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:42,280 became a very, very heavy bombing program. 948 01:11:42,340 --> 01:11:44,980 Two to three times as many bombs as were dropped 949 01:11:45,050 --> 01:11:48,720 on Western Europe during all of World War II. 950 01:12:07,900 --> 01:12:10,840 MCNAMARA: This is not primarily a military problem. 951 01:12:10,910 --> 01:12:13,610 It's a battle for the hearts and minds 952 01:12:13,670 --> 01:12:17,680 of the people of South Vietnam. 953 01:12:17,750 --> 01:12:20,680 As a prerequisite to that, we must be able 954 01:12:20,750 --> 01:12:23,750 to guarantee their physical security. 955 01:15:41,820 --> 01:15:43,320 ANNOUNCER: It was announced today 956 01:15:43,380 --> 01:15:45,450 that total American casualties in Vietnam 957 01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:50,520 now number 4877 including 748 killed. 958 01:15:50,590 --> 01:15:52,630 REASONER: Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, 959 01:15:52,690 --> 01:15:55,560 on each of his seven inspection trips to Vietnam, 960 01:15:55,630 --> 01:15:59,170 has found some positive aspect of the course of the war there. 961 01:15:59,230 --> 01:16:02,470 MCNAMARA: The most vivid impression I'm bringing back is 962 01:16:02,540 --> 01:16:04,570 that we've stopped losing the war. 963 01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:06,340 The North Vietnamese today, we believe, 964 01:16:06,410 --> 01:16:08,510 have nine regiments of their army. 965 01:16:08,580 --> 01:16:10,740 ANNOUNCER: Some of the men had a little training 966 01:16:10,810 --> 01:16:13,510 in a state park in Kentucky before coming here. 967 01:16:13,580 --> 01:16:16,220 But it didn't prepare them for thicket of trees, 968 01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:18,050 spiked vines, thorn bushes 969 01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:20,120 almost perpendicular cliffs, 970 01:16:20,190 --> 01:16:22,060 90-degree temperatures, insects. 971 01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:24,490 ANNOUNCER 2: This has changed from a nasty little war 972 01:16:24,560 --> 01:16:27,600 to a nasty middle-sized war. 973 01:16:27,660 --> 01:16:30,100 The Vietnamese are still doing 974 01:16:30,160 --> 01:16:32,730 most of the fighting and most of the dying, 975 01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:36,070 but week after week, American casualty figures go up. 976 01:16:36,140 --> 01:16:39,770 JOHNSON: Now, America wins the wars that she undertakes. 977 01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:42,610 Make no mistake about it. 978 01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:47,920 And we have declared war on tyranny and aggression. 979 01:16:47,980 --> 01:16:50,480 If this little nation goes down the drain 980 01:16:50,550 --> 01:16:52,090 and can't maintain independence 981 01:16:52,150 --> 01:16:54,060 ask yourself what's gonna happen 982 01:16:54,120 --> 01:16:57,360 to all the other little nations. 983 01:17:36,530 --> 01:17:40,430 MCNAMARA: Let me go back one moment. 984 01:17:40,500 --> 01:17:44,170 In the Cuban Missile Crisis, at the end... 985 01:17:44,240 --> 01:17:47,140 I think we did put ourselves 986 01:17:47,210 --> 01:17:50,680 in the skin of the Soviets. 987 01:17:51,850 --> 01:17:53,810 In the case of Vietnam, 988 01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:56,550 we didn't know them well enough to empathize. 989 01:17:56,620 --> 01:18:00,990 And there was total misunderstanding as a result. 990 01:18:01,060 --> 01:18:05,090 They believed that we had simply replaced the French 991 01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:06,560 as a colonial power, 992 01:18:06,630 --> 01:18:12,430 and we were seeking to subject South and North Vietnam 993 01:18:12,500 --> 01:18:16,570 to our colonial interests, which was absolutely absurd. 994 01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:22,110 And we, we saw Vietnam as an element of the Cold War. 995 01:18:22,180 --> 01:18:26,410 Not what they saw it as, a civil war. 996 01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:41,200 There aren't many examples 997 01:18:41,260 --> 01:18:46,470 in which you bring two former enemies together 998 01:18:46,530 --> 01:18:48,800 at the highest levels, 999 01:18:48,870 --> 01:18:51,370 and discuss what might have been. 1000 01:18:53,410 --> 01:18:57,110 I formed the hypothesis that each of us could have 1001 01:18:57,180 --> 01:18:59,110 achieved our objectives 1002 01:18:59,180 --> 01:19:02,250 without the terrible loss of life. 1003 01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:06,720 And I wanted to test that by going to Vietnam. 1004 01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:12,490 The former foreign minister of Vietnam 1005 01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:18,030 a wonderful man named Thach said, "You're totally wrong. 1006 01:19:18,100 --> 01:19:20,470 "We were fighting for our independence. 1007 01:19:20,530 --> 01:19:24,270 You were fighting to enslave us." 1008 01:19:24,340 --> 01:19:28,980 We almost came to blows. That was noon on the first day. 1009 01:19:29,040 --> 01:19:34,050 "Do you mean to say it was not a tragedy for you 1010 01:19:34,110 --> 01:19:38,990 "when you lost 3,400,000 Vietnamese killed 1011 01:19:39,050 --> 01:19:40,790 "which on our population base 1012 01:19:40,850 --> 01:19:43,120 "is the equivalent of 27 million Americans? 1013 01:19:43,190 --> 01:19:44,590 "What did you accomplish? 1014 01:19:44,660 --> 01:19:46,260 "You didn't get any more than we were willing 1015 01:19:46,330 --> 01:19:48,100 "to give you at the beginning of the war. 1016 01:19:48,160 --> 01:19:50,100 "You could've had the whole damn thing: 1017 01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:53,330 "independence, unification." 1018 01:19:53,400 --> 01:19:56,170 "Mr. McNamara, you must never have read a history book. 1019 01:19:56,240 --> 01:19:59,210 "If you had, you'd know we weren't pawns 1020 01:19:59,270 --> 01:20:02,110 "of the Chinese or the Russians. 1021 01:20:02,180 --> 01:20:03,610 "McNamara, Didn't you know that? 1022 01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:06,350 "Don't you understand that we've been fighting 1023 01:20:06,410 --> 01:20:09,520 "the Chinese for 1000 years? 1024 01:20:09,580 --> 01:20:11,390 "We were fighting for our independence, 1025 01:20:11,450 --> 01:20:13,390 "and we'd fight to the last man. 1026 01:20:13,450 --> 01:20:14,990 "And we were determined to do so. 1027 01:20:15,060 --> 01:20:17,460 "And no amount of bombing, no amount of U.S. pressure 1028 01:20:17,530 --> 01:20:19,090 would've ever stopped us." 1029 01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:39,180 What makes us omniscient? 1030 01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:44,180 Have we a record of omniscience? 1031 01:20:48,590 --> 01:20:52,860 We are the strongest nation in the world today. 1032 01:20:52,930 --> 01:20:54,930 I do not believe we should ever 1033 01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:59,500 apply that economic, political or military power unilaterally. 1034 01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:05,170 If we had followed that rule in Vietnam, 1035 01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:07,210 we wouldn't have been there. 1036 01:21:10,840 --> 01:21:13,780 None of our allies supported us. 1037 01:21:13,850 --> 01:21:17,350 Not Japan, not Germany, not Britain or France. 1038 01:21:21,690 --> 01:21:25,130 If we can't persuade nations with comparable values 1039 01:21:25,190 --> 01:21:27,860 of the merit of our cause, 1040 01:21:27,930 --> 01:21:30,730 we'd better reexamine our reasoning. 1041 01:21:39,470 --> 01:21:41,310 Americans suffered the heaviest casualties 1042 01:21:41,380 --> 01:21:42,940 of the war in Vietnam last week. 1043 01:21:43,010 --> 01:21:45,380 543 killed in action. 1044 01:21:45,450 --> 01:21:48,920 Another 1247 were wounded and hospitalized. 1045 01:21:48,980 --> 01:21:53,850 The deaths raise the U.S. total in the war so far to 18,239. 1046 01:21:53,920 --> 01:21:56,390 South Vietnamese put their losses for the week 1047 01:21:56,460 --> 01:21:57,830 at 522 killed. 1048 01:21:57,890 --> 01:22:00,190 Communist losses were not reported. 1049 01:22:00,260 --> 01:22:02,130 Contributing to those record casualties 1050 01:22:02,200 --> 01:22:03,960 has been the steady Communist bombardment 1051 01:22:04,030 --> 01:22:06,370 of the Marine outpost at Khe Sanh. 1052 01:22:06,430 --> 01:22:07,870 There, the North Vietnamese 1053 01:22:07,940 --> 01:22:09,470 have been tightening their ring around around 1054 01:22:09,540 --> 01:22:11,240 the two-square mile division. 1055 01:22:11,310 --> 01:22:13,940 The military expects a full-scale assault. 1056 01:22:40,730 --> 01:22:42,640 MORRIS: To what extent did you feel 1057 01:22:42,700 --> 01:22:44,140 that you were the author of stuff 1058 01:22:44,200 --> 01:22:46,540 or that you were an instrument 1059 01:22:46,610 --> 01:22:48,740 of things outside of your control? 1060 01:22:48,810 --> 01:22:52,010 Well, I don't think I felt either. 1061 01:22:52,080 --> 01:22:56,880 I just felt that I was serving at the request of a president 1062 01:22:56,950 --> 01:22:59,520 who'd been elected by the American people. 1063 01:22:59,590 --> 01:23:04,990 And it was my responsibility to try to help him, uh... 1064 01:23:05,060 --> 01:23:07,960 to carry out the office as he believed 1065 01:23:08,030 --> 01:23:09,900 was in the interest of our people. 1066 01:23:11,570 --> 01:23:15,540 [VOICE MUTED] 1067 01:23:38,990 --> 01:23:44,930 MCNAMARA: What is morally appropriate in a wartime environment? 1068 01:23:50,040 --> 01:23:52,940 Let me give you an illustration. 1069 01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:01,980 While I was secretary 1070 01:24:02,050 --> 01:24:06,890 we used what's called "Agent Orange" in Vietnam. 1071 01:24:06,950 --> 01:24:12,290 A chemical that strips leaves off of trees. 1072 01:24:12,360 --> 01:24:17,260 After the war, it is claimed that that was a toxic chemical, 1073 01:24:17,330 --> 01:24:20,730 and it killed many individuals, 1074 01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:25,770 soldiers and civilians exposed to it. 1075 01:24:25,840 --> 01:24:29,410 Were those who issued the approval... 1076 01:24:29,480 --> 01:24:32,010 to use Agent Orange, criminals? 1077 01:24:32,080 --> 01:24:35,150 Were they committing a crime against humanity? 1078 01:24:37,490 --> 01:24:39,350 Let's look at the law. 1079 01:24:39,420 --> 01:24:42,020 Now, what kind of law do we have that says 1080 01:24:42,090 --> 01:24:44,490 these chemicals are acceptable for use in war 1081 01:24:44,560 --> 01:24:46,330 and these chemicals are not. 1082 01:24:46,390 --> 01:24:48,930 We don't have clear definitions of that kind. 1083 01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:55,640 I never in the world would have authorized an illegal action. 1084 01:24:55,700 --> 01:24:57,670 I'm not really sure I authorized Agent Orange, 1085 01:24:57,740 --> 01:24:59,070 I don't remember it. 1086 01:24:59,140 --> 01:25:00,670 But it certainly occurred, 1087 01:25:00,740 --> 01:25:03,940 the use of it occurred while I was secretary. 1088 01:25:22,830 --> 01:25:27,100 Norman Morrison was a Quaker. 1089 01:25:27,170 --> 01:25:28,740 He was opposed to war, 1090 01:25:28,800 --> 01:25:30,900 the violence of war, the killing. 1091 01:25:30,970 --> 01:25:34,510 He came to the Pentagon, 1092 01:25:34,580 --> 01:25:37,410 doused himself with gasoline. 1093 01:25:39,350 --> 01:25:42,420 Burned himself to death below my office. 1094 01:25:45,650 --> 01:25:49,720 He held a child in his arms, his daughter. 1095 01:25:49,790 --> 01:25:51,760 Passersby shouted, "Save the child!" 1096 01:25:51,830 --> 01:25:54,860 He threw the child out of his arms, 1097 01:25:54,930 --> 01:25:57,730 and the child lived and is alive today. 1098 01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:01,230 His wife issued a very moving statement: 1099 01:26:01,300 --> 01:26:07,240 "Human beings must stop killing other human beings." 1100 01:26:07,310 --> 01:26:09,580 And that's a belief that I shared. 1101 01:26:09,640 --> 01:26:13,950 I shared it then and I believe it even more strongly today. 1102 01:26:14,010 --> 01:26:19,320 How much evil must we do in order to do good? 1103 01:26:19,390 --> 01:26:23,620 We have certain ideals, certain responsibilities. 1104 01:26:23,690 --> 01:26:27,390 Recognize that at times you will have to engage in evil, 1105 01:26:27,460 --> 01:26:31,100 but minimize it. 1106 01:26:35,170 --> 01:26:37,570 I remember reading that General Sherman, 1107 01:26:37,640 --> 01:26:39,210 in the Civil War, 1108 01:26:39,270 --> 01:26:43,640 the mayor of Atlanta pleaded with him to save the city. 1109 01:26:43,710 --> 01:26:45,980 And Sherman essentially said to the mayor 1110 01:26:46,050 --> 01:26:49,720 just before he torched it and burned it down: 1111 01:26:49,780 --> 01:26:54,350 "War is cruel. War is cruelty." 1112 01:26:54,420 --> 01:26:57,120 That was the way LeMay felt. 1113 01:26:57,190 --> 01:26:59,560 He was trying to save the country. 1114 01:26:59,630 --> 01:27:03,700 He was trying to save our nation. 1115 01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:06,300 And in the process, 1116 01:27:06,370 --> 01:27:09,500 he was prepared to do whatever killing was necessary. 1117 01:27:12,710 --> 01:27:16,240 It's a very, very difficult position 1118 01:27:16,310 --> 01:27:18,450 for sensitive human beings to be in. 1119 01:27:18,510 --> 01:27:22,580 Morrison was one of those. I think I was. 1120 01:27:29,220 --> 01:27:32,860 50,000 people came to Washington 1121 01:27:32,930 --> 01:27:36,000 to demonstrate against the war. 1122 01:27:38,930 --> 01:27:41,940 About 20,000 of them marched on the Pentagon. 1123 01:27:47,310 --> 01:27:52,080 The Pentagon is a very, very difficult building to defend. 1124 01:27:52,150 --> 01:27:56,080 We placed troops carrying rifles around it. 1125 01:27:56,150 --> 01:28:01,120 U.S. marshals in front of the soldiers. 1126 01:28:01,190 --> 01:28:05,360 But I told the president, not a rifle would be loaded 1127 01:28:05,430 --> 01:28:07,660 without my personal permission. 1128 01:28:07,730 --> 01:28:10,230 And I wasn't gonna grant it. 1129 01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:21,140 [CROWD JEERING] 1130 01:28:45,330 --> 01:28:50,540 MORRIS: What effect did all of this dissent have on your thinking? 1131 01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:53,870 I mean, Norman Morrison is '65. This is '67. 1132 01:28:53,940 --> 01:28:58,180 Well, it was a very tense period. 1133 01:28:58,250 --> 01:29:02,820 Very tense period for my family, which I don't want to discuss. 1134 01:29:05,290 --> 01:29:09,160 MORRIS: How was your thinking changing during this period? 1135 01:29:10,790 --> 01:29:13,330 I don't think my thinking was changing. 1136 01:29:13,390 --> 01:29:18,870 We were in the Cold War. And this was a Cold War... 1137 01:29:20,370 --> 01:29:22,200 activity. 1138 01:30:11,150 --> 01:30:13,920 Some commentators here have said that the war 1139 01:30:13,990 --> 01:30:16,060 is turning into a kind of stalemate. 1140 01:30:16,120 --> 01:30:18,990 No, no. I think on the contrary 1141 01:30:19,060 --> 01:30:22,230 as General Westmoreland has pointed out... 1142 01:30:22,300 --> 01:30:26,070 in recent weeks in Saigon, the military operations 1143 01:30:26,130 --> 01:30:29,800 the large-unit military operations continue to... 1144 01:30:29,870 --> 01:30:32,940 show very substantial progress. 1145 01:30:41,610 --> 01:30:46,420 MCNAMARA: One of the lessons I learned early on: never say never. 1146 01:30:46,490 --> 01:30:49,090 Never, never, never. 1147 01:30:49,160 --> 01:30:51,390 Never say never. 1148 01:30:52,360 --> 01:30:54,490 And secondly... 1149 01:30:54,560 --> 01:30:59,130 never answer the question that is asked of you. 1150 01:30:59,200 --> 01:31:05,210 Answer the question that you wish had been asked of you. 1151 01:31:05,270 --> 01:31:08,940 And quite frankly, I follow that rule. 1152 01:31:09,010 --> 01:31:11,110 It's a very good rule. 1153 01:31:20,850 --> 01:31:23,520 MORRIS: When you talk about the responsibility 1154 01:31:23,590 --> 01:31:27,130 for something like the Vietnam War... 1155 01:31:29,760 --> 01:31:31,760 whose responsibility is it? 1156 01:31:31,830 --> 01:31:34,830 It's the president's responsibility. 1157 01:31:34,900 --> 01:31:37,640 I don't want to fail to recognize 1158 01:31:37,700 --> 01:31:39,970 the tremendous contribution I think Johnson 1159 01:31:40,040 --> 01:31:41,670 made to the country. 1160 01:31:41,740 --> 01:31:43,880 I don't want to put the responsibility 1161 01:31:43,940 --> 01:31:46,680 for Vietnam on his shoulders alone, 1162 01:31:46,750 --> 01:31:48,920 but I do-- I am inclined to believe 1163 01:31:48,980 --> 01:31:50,250 that if Kennedy had lived 1164 01:31:50,320 --> 01:31:51,920 he would've made a difference. 1165 01:31:51,990 --> 01:31:54,750 I don't think we would've have had 500,000 men there. 1166 01:31:58,930 --> 01:32:01,900 Two very telling photographs. 1167 01:32:01,960 --> 01:32:05,370 One of them has Johnson like this: 1168 01:32:05,430 --> 01:32:07,230 You can just see him thinking, 1169 01:32:07,300 --> 01:32:10,670 "My God, I'm in a hell of a mess. 1170 01:32:10,740 --> 01:32:13,510 "And this guy is trying to tell me to do something 1171 01:32:13,570 --> 01:32:16,680 "that I know is wrong and I'm not gonna do. 1172 01:32:16,740 --> 01:32:20,610 But how the hell am I gonna get out of this?" 1173 01:32:20,680 --> 01:32:22,680 The other photograph, you can just see me saying: 1174 01:32:22,750 --> 01:32:26,090 "Jesus Christ. I love this man, I respect him, 1175 01:32:26,150 --> 01:32:27,420 "but he's totally wrong. 1176 01:32:27,490 --> 01:32:30,260 What am I gonna do?" 1177 01:32:30,320 --> 01:32:35,100 Johnson couldn't persuade me, and I couldn't persuade him. 1178 01:32:37,060 --> 01:32:40,730 I had this enormous respect and affection, loyalty 1179 01:32:40,800 --> 01:32:42,870 to both Kennedy and Johnson. 1180 01:32:42,940 --> 01:32:48,180 But at the end, Johnson and I found ourselves poles apart. 1181 01:32:48,240 --> 01:32:51,340 And I said to a very close and dear friend of mine, 1182 01:32:51,410 --> 01:32:54,080 Kay Graham former publisher of The Washington Post: 1183 01:32:54,150 --> 01:32:55,520 "Even to this day, Kay, 1184 01:32:55,580 --> 01:32:58,550 I don't know whether I quit or was fired." 1185 01:32:58,620 --> 01:33:00,190 She said, "You're out of your mind. 1186 01:33:00,250 --> 01:33:01,390 Of course, you were fired." 1187 01:33:10,760 --> 01:33:15,140 November 1, 1967. 1188 01:33:17,340 --> 01:33:20,510 I presented a memo to Johnson that said: 1189 01:33:20,570 --> 01:33:24,380 "The course we're on is totally wrong. 1190 01:33:24,440 --> 01:33:26,550 "We've gotta change it. 1191 01:33:29,220 --> 01:33:32,490 "Cut back at what we're doing in Vietnam. 1192 01:33:34,920 --> 01:33:39,030 We gotta reduce the casualties," and so on. 1193 01:33:41,730 --> 01:33:44,460 It was an extraordinarily controversial memo. 1194 01:33:44,530 --> 01:33:48,270 And I took it to him. I delivered it myself. 1195 01:33:48,340 --> 01:33:50,300 "Mr. President, nobody has seen this. 1196 01:33:50,370 --> 01:33:55,240 Not Dean Rusk, not the chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Nobody." 1197 01:33:55,310 --> 01:33:59,380 "I know that it may contain recommendations and statements 1198 01:33:59,450 --> 01:34:01,680 that you do not agree with and do not support." 1199 01:34:07,090 --> 01:34:09,220 I never heard from him. 1200 01:34:14,760 --> 01:34:17,230 Something had to give. 1201 01:34:23,200 --> 01:34:25,870 There was a rumor I was facing a mental breakdown 1202 01:34:25,940 --> 01:34:28,640 I was under such pressure and stress. 1203 01:34:31,810 --> 01:34:34,850 I don't think that was the case at all. 1204 01:34:38,890 --> 01:34:42,660 But it was a really traumatic departure. 1205 01:34:47,190 --> 01:34:49,430 That's the way it ended. 1206 01:34:54,400 --> 01:34:56,740 Except for one thing. 1207 01:34:58,940 --> 01:35:02,580 He awarded me the Medal of Freedom 1208 01:35:02,640 --> 01:35:06,580 in a very beautiful ceremony at the White House. 1209 01:35:06,650 --> 01:35:11,520 And he was very, very warm in his comments. 1210 01:35:11,580 --> 01:35:14,950 And I became so emotional, I could not... 1211 01:35:15,020 --> 01:35:16,990 respond. 1212 01:35:20,630 --> 01:35:24,260 [APPLAUSE] 1213 01:35:28,070 --> 01:35:30,100 MCNAMARA: Mr. President 1214 01:35:31,570 --> 01:35:34,070 I cannot find words 1215 01:35:35,680 --> 01:35:38,980 to express what lies in my heart today. 1216 01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:45,290 And I think I'd better respond on another occasion. 1217 01:35:54,990 --> 01:35:58,000 And had I responded, I would have said: 1218 01:35:58,060 --> 01:36:00,600 "I know what many of you are thinking. 1219 01:36:00,670 --> 01:36:03,370 "You're thinking this man is duplicitous. 1220 01:36:03,440 --> 01:36:08,440 "You're thinking that he has held things close to his chest. 1221 01:36:08,510 --> 01:36:11,510 "You're thinking that... 1222 01:36:11,580 --> 01:36:14,950 "he did not respond fully 1223 01:36:15,010 --> 01:36:18,020 "to the desires and wishes of the American people. 1224 01:36:18,080 --> 01:36:20,290 And I wanna tell you you're wrong." 1225 01:36:20,350 --> 01:36:24,860 Of course he had personal idiosyncrasies. 1226 01:36:24,920 --> 01:36:26,990 No question about that. 1227 01:36:27,060 --> 01:36:31,660 He didn't accept all the advice he was given. 1228 01:36:31,730 --> 01:36:34,170 On several occasions, 1229 01:36:34,230 --> 01:36:37,970 his associates advised him to be more forthcoming. 1230 01:36:38,040 --> 01:36:40,010 He wasn't. 1231 01:36:42,240 --> 01:36:44,140 People did not understand at that time 1232 01:36:44,210 --> 01:36:46,210 there were recommendations and pressures 1233 01:36:46,280 --> 01:36:48,420 that would carry the risk of war with China 1234 01:36:48,480 --> 01:36:49,920 and carry the risk of nuclear war. 1235 01:36:49,980 --> 01:36:52,720 And he was determined to prevent it. 1236 01:36:57,220 --> 01:37:00,160 I'm arguing that he had a reason 1237 01:37:00,230 --> 01:37:03,560 in his mind for doing what he did. 1238 01:37:06,470 --> 01:37:09,940 And, of course, shortly after I left 1239 01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:14,370 Johnson concluded that he couldn't continue. 1240 01:37:22,850 --> 01:37:24,480 MORRIS: And at this point, 1241 01:37:24,550 --> 01:37:28,050 how many Americans had been killed in Vietnam? 1242 01:37:28,120 --> 01:37:32,960 About 25,000. Less than half 1243 01:37:33,030 --> 01:37:36,360 of the number ultimately killed, 58,000. 1244 01:38:39,230 --> 01:38:44,560 Historians don't really like to deal with counterfactuals, 1245 01:38:44,630 --> 01:38:46,870 with what might have been. 1246 01:38:52,310 --> 01:38:55,310 They want to talk about history. 1247 01:38:55,380 --> 01:38:59,550 "How the hell do you know, McNamara, what might have been? 1248 01:38:59,610 --> 01:39:01,480 Who knows?" 1249 01:39:02,850 --> 01:39:05,650 Well, I know certain things. 1250 01:39:14,290 --> 01:39:17,300 What I'm doing is thinking it through with hindsight. 1251 01:39:17,360 --> 01:39:20,670 But you don't have hindsight available at the time. 1252 01:39:20,730 --> 01:39:24,470 I'm very proud of my accomplishments. 1253 01:39:24,540 --> 01:39:28,340 And I'm very sorry that in the process of accomplishing things, 1254 01:39:28,410 --> 01:39:29,640 I've made errors. 1255 01:39:56,700 --> 01:40:00,040 We all make mistakes. 1256 01:40:00,110 --> 01:40:02,880 We know we make mistakes. 1257 01:40:05,810 --> 01:40:08,950 I don't know any military commander, who is honest, 1258 01:40:09,020 --> 01:40:12,450 who would say he has not made a mistake. 1259 01:40:16,590 --> 01:40:19,360 There's a wonderful phrase: 1260 01:40:19,430 --> 01:40:21,860 "The fog of war." 1261 01:40:23,660 --> 01:40:25,500 What "the fog of war" means is: 1262 01:40:25,570 --> 01:40:29,600 War is so complex it's beyond the ability of the human mind 1263 01:40:29,670 --> 01:40:32,510 to comprehend all the variables. 1264 01:40:34,040 --> 01:40:37,210 Our judgment, our understanding, 1265 01:40:37,280 --> 01:40:39,710 are not adequate. 1266 01:40:41,280 --> 01:40:44,780 And we kill people unnecessarily. 1267 01:40:48,920 --> 01:40:52,560 Wilson said, "We won the war to end all wars." 1268 01:40:52,630 --> 01:40:56,230 [CHEERING] 1269 01:41:03,140 --> 01:41:06,110 I'm not so naive or simplistic 1270 01:41:06,170 --> 01:41:09,340 to believe we can eliminate war. 1271 01:41:11,380 --> 01:41:14,710 We're not gonna change human nature any time soon. 1272 01:41:24,890 --> 01:41:28,460 It isn't that we aren't rational. We are rational. 1273 01:41:29,460 --> 01:41:31,760 But reason has limits. 1274 01:41:49,180 --> 01:41:54,250 There's a quote from T.S. Eliot that I just love: 1275 01:41:55,350 --> 01:41:59,190 "We shall not cease from exploring 1276 01:41:59,260 --> 01:42:02,030 "and at the end of our exploration, 1277 01:42:02,090 --> 01:42:05,260 "we will return to where we started 1278 01:42:05,330 --> 01:42:08,400 and know the place for the first time." 1279 01:42:08,470 --> 01:42:11,870 Now that's, in a sense, where I'm beginning to be. 1280 01:42:29,320 --> 01:42:32,590 MORRIS [ON PHONE]: After you left the Johnson administration 1281 01:42:32,660 --> 01:42:36,630 why didn't you speak out against the Vietnam War? 1282 01:42:39,870 --> 01:42:43,500 MCNAMARA: I'm not going to say any more than I have. 1283 01:42:43,570 --> 01:42:45,470 These are the kinds of questions 1284 01:42:45,540 --> 01:42:47,670 that get me in trouble. 1285 01:42:47,740 --> 01:42:52,310 You don't know what I know about how inflammatory 1286 01:42:52,380 --> 01:42:54,510 my words can appear. 1287 01:42:58,620 --> 01:43:02,990 A lot of people misunderstand the war, 1288 01:43:03,060 --> 01:43:06,490 misunderstand me. 1289 01:43:06,560 --> 01:43:11,460 A lot of people think I'm a son of a bitch. 1290 01:43:11,530 --> 01:43:14,670 MORRIS: Do you feel in any way responsible for the war? 1291 01:43:14,730 --> 01:43:16,900 Do you feel guilty? 1292 01:43:16,970 --> 01:43:19,340 MCNAMARA: I don't want to go into further discussion. 1293 01:43:19,410 --> 01:43:22,410 It just opens up more controversy. 1294 01:43:23,680 --> 01:43:25,710 I don't wanna add anything to Vietnam. 1295 01:43:25,780 --> 01:43:27,880 It is so complex that anything I say 1296 01:43:27,950 --> 01:43:32,380 will require additions and qualifications. 1297 01:43:36,290 --> 01:43:39,190 MORRIS: Is it the feeling that you're damned if you do 1298 01:43:39,260 --> 01:43:41,290 and if you don't, no matter what--? 1299 01:43:41,360 --> 01:43:43,260 MCNAMARA: Yeah, that's right. 1300 01:43:45,900 --> 01:43:49,370 And I would rather be damned if I don't. 1301 01:44:13,030 --> 01:44:17,430 [**]